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Jesus the Man Before John !

Randy said:
I think the Fathers Spirit was there as in the Spirit of God or Holy Spirit. That the angel was standing in the presence of God. Hence the ground was Holy ground.
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Certainly, the angels aren’t independent self-existing beings who do what they will. They are dependent on God for their existence.. they are dependent on His Spirit to live and move and do as He commands them.
God Himself does not have to go where they go, but His Spirit does.
Joshua worship the angel of the Lord as he would if the Father himself was standing in front of him.
 
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Randy said:
No, the Angel appeared as an Angel. Gods Holy Spirit is not visible to man.

You keep avoiding the question. Are you a JW?
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I have addressed that question already and Im not answering it now, its just a diversion. However you seem to deny that God appeared as an Angel, and if He did, The Son of God has appeared as an Angel, and if so, the Chief/Prince of them all.
 
brightfame52 said:
I have addressed that question already and Im not answering it now, its just a diversion. However you seem to deny that God appeared as an Angel, and if He did, The Son of God has appeared as an Angel, and if so, the Chief/Prince of them all.
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I guess that means yes you are a JW otherwise you would state NO. God has not shown Himself as an Angel. He glorifies Himself. He shows Himself as God Almighty. Jesus's spirit was before the world began and in Him all the fullness of God the Father was pleased to dwell. The Son, who was before the world began, had the Fathers very nature in Him as in Mighty God. God was the Logos. So, Jesus, "the Man", was not before Adam in any meaning of the word "man". God was the Logos with the Father in the beginning.
 
Was He the Lord Christ Jesus before the Incarnation ?


Phil 2:5-6

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

The answer is a resounding YES ! Most people believe, and I also believed once, and without warrant, that the Being of the Man Christ Jesus, the Mediator 1 Tim 2:5, that He did not exist until after being born of the virgin mary, but this was because of spiritual ignorance, for He was the Only Begotten Son of God, in the form of God, before His Incarnation, and so says our text Phil 2:6

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

For it was while in this Preincarnate form, He had the Mind of Christ Jesus ! It was then in pre creation that Christ Jesus as Mediator was in the Form of God, prior to taking on a entirely different form, the form of a servant by the incarnation ! 6
 
brightfame52 said:
Was He the Lord Christ Jesus before the Incarnation ?


Phil 2:5-6

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

The answer is a resounding YES ! Most people believe, and I also believed once, and without warrant, that the Being of the Man Christ Jesus, the Mediator 1 Tim 2:5, that He did not exist until after being born of the virgin mary, but this was because of spiritual ignorance, for He was the Only Begotten Son of God, in the form of God, before His Incarnation, and so says our text Phil 2:6

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

For it was while in this Preincarnate form, He had the Mind of Christ Jesus ! It was then in pre creation that Christ Jesus as Mediator was in the Form of God, prior to taking on a entirely different form, the form of a servant by the incarnation ! 6
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Paul is speaking of Christ presence tense. He being in the form of God not man, past tense as in the beginning. It's not the man Christ Jesus in the beginning with the Father. Its God was the Logos in that beginning with the Father. You just posted so. I don't know why you insist calling Him a man in any meaning of that word before He came into the world as the Son of man. He is still the same person before, now and forever. But the Son who was in the beginning is called God not the Man Jesus Christ. A name that was given when He came into the world from above. Not beforehand.
 
Randy said:
Paul is speaking of Christ presence tense. He being in the form of God not man, past tense as in the beginning. It's not the man Christ Jesus in the beginning with the Father. Its God was the Logos in that beginning with the Father. You just posted so. I don't know why you insist calling Him a man in any meaning of that word before He came into the world as the Son of man. He is still the same person before, now and forever. But the Son who was in the beginning is called God not the Man Jesus Christ. A name that was given when He came into the world from above. Not beforehand.
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I know what Paul is writing about.
 
Was He the Lord Christ Jesus before the Incarnation ?2


Another scripture that proves the same, that reveals that the Lord Jesus Christ in His Mediator Man Person, Glorified before the incarnation, it is 2 Cor 8:9

9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

He had been rich in His God Man Mediator Glory, equal with God, before the World began Jn 17:5

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Phil 2:5-6 Now I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ in His Preincarnate existence as God Man Mediator, looked the way He did to James Peter and John here on the Mount Matt 17:1-3

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

2 Pet 1:17-19

17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

I believe Moses had seen Him before and so did recognize Him on the Mount when with Him ! When did Moses see Him before ? Ex 24:10-18

10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

12 And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

13 And Moses rose up, and his minister Joshua: and Moses went up into the mount of God.

14 And he said unto the elders, Tarry ye here for us, until we come again unto you: and, behold, Aaron and Hur are with you: if any man have any matters to do, let him come unto them.

15 And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.

16 And the glory of the Lord abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

17 And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

18 And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.
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Notice Vs 10, they saw something under His Feet, So this was a Person existing as the God of Israel, this would have been the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Mediator between God and Men, in Union with the Godhead.

Jonh Gill writes on Ex 24:10

And they saw the God of Israel,.... The Targum of Jonathan restrains this to Nadab and Abihu whereas it is doubtless true of Moses and Aaron, and the seventy elders, who all saw him, and who were witnesses to the people that it was a divine Person that spoke to Moses, and delivered the laws unto him, to be observed by them; which seems to be the reason of their being called up, and favoured with this sight which must not be understood as of anything criminal in them, as if they curiously looked and pried to see something they should not, for which they deserved some sort of punishment, as the Targum intimates; but of a privilege, and a very high one they were favoured with: and this sight they had was not by a vision of prophecy, or with the eyes of their understanding, but corporeally; they saw the Son of God, the God of Israel, in an human form, as a pledge and presage of his future incarnation, who is the Angel that spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, as Stephen says, and the Lord that was among the angels there, who afterwards became incarnate, and having done his work on earth, ascended on high, Acts 7:38.

and there was under his feet; which shows that there was a visible form, and that human; nor is this contrary to what is said, "ye saw no similitude"; Deuteronomy 4:12, since what is here related does not respect the same time, nor the same persons; this was after the giving of the ten commands, that at the time of it; this is said of the seventy elders, with Moses, Aaron, and his two sons, that of all the people:
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He is the beginning !


Col 1:18

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

This scripture sets forth a profound Mystery and Truth, that Christ as the Head of His Body the Church, was in the beginning, in other words, He existed in this capacity as the Head of the Body, His Church, at the beginning of the World, and it is what is referred to here Rev 3:14

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Prov 8:23

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

And He was set up the Head of His Body the Church, which are called the Sons of men in Prov 8:31

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Thats His Church, members of His Body, that He takes delight in, and it is those He made in His Image and Likeness, who are the ones to be conformed to His Image through redemptive blessing Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The Ones Created in His Image Gen 1:26

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Matt 13:37

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed[offspring, descendants] is the Son of man; See Gen 1:26 !

As the beginning the Head of the Church, He is also the originating cause Eph 3:9

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

In other words, Creation had an Redemptive Purpose hidden in Christ, it was a Mystery !

It was the redemptive purpose for that world[The Church He is the Head of ] chosen in Him before the foundation Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 6
 
Who is the First Man ever Born ?

Job 15:7

7 Art thou the first man that was born? or wast thou made before the hills?

Jn 1:30

This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he[a man] was before me.

I already know that the consensus will say Adam the First 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

But that pertains only to manifestation, also Adam was not born or beget or fathered, he was created, or made, and that after a pattern of another Man, the Man Christ Jesus, His Mediator 1 Tim 2:5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

This statement is false if Christ Jesus was not the Mediator of men in Adam at Creation, at Creation, men had One God and One Mediator, the Man Christ Jesus, the thing was, Christ Jesus the Mediator was not yet manifested as He would be later I jn 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

He became Manifested through means of the Incarnation, the Virgin Birth !

The Man Christ Jesus is the First Man Born and by that is meant :


I.first in time or place

A.in any succession of things or persons



II.first in rank

A.influence, honour


B.chief


C.principal



III.first, at the first

In all things, including being a Man He must have the Preeminence Col 1:18

18 And he is the head of the body, the church[As Mediator]: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

The word preeminence means :

I.to be first, hold the first place

That word first in Job 15:7 for first man is the hebrew word ri'shown :

I.first, primary, former

A.former (of time)

i.ancestors


ii.former things



B.foremost (of location)


C.first (in time)


D.first, chief (in degree)

Christ the Mediator Man [1Tim 2:5] was before Adam as He was before John 1:30, in fact Adam took the form and shape of a Man after being made in the Image and Likeness of his God Man Mediator, Christ Jesus ! 6
 
Jesus was not incarnate as a human until his birth through Mary. Whenever the NT mentions Jesus as being before creation, before Adam, etc., it is a reference to his being the Son, not a man.
 
Who is the First Man ever Born ? 2


Job 15:7

7 Art thou the first man that was born? or wast thou made before the hills?

The second portion of this verse gives us more insight into who this First Man Born is, by the words of inquiry"or wast thou made before the hills?"

The word made here is the hebrew word chuwl and means:


ii.to be brought forth



D.(Hophal) to be born

Which is its meaning in Prov 8:24-25

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Did you notice again the phrase "before the hills" ? Where did we see it before ? Here Job 15:7

7 Art thou the first man that was born? or wast thou made before the hills?

The First Man was born, brought forth before the Hills were ! Prove 8:24-25 is speaking of the Wisdom of God, which is Christ 1 Cor 1:24

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

And who is Christ ? Why He is the The Man Mediator between God and Men 1 Tim 2:5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

He delighted as Mans Mediator before they were Created Prov 8:31

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Some Translations of Prov 8:25

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: are:

before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,NIV

before the mountains were set in place— before the hills—I was born,NET

And before the mountains would be established, and before the hills, I was formed in the womb.Aramaic Bible in Plain English See Ps 110:3

The Septuagint reads:

25 before the mountains were settled, and before all hills, he begets me.

which terms relate to being born, Hence the First Man to be born is the Lord Jesus Christ as The Mediator between God and Men 1 Tim 2:5, The Man Wisdom, and we are His Children if we receive this Mystery Lk 7:35

But wisdom [Christ] is justified by all her children.
 
Hopeful 2 said:
I say there was no Jesus until the Word took on flesh and was born of Mary.
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Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59


Why do you think the Jews picked up stones to stone Him when He said this?



JLB
 
brightfame52 said:
Who is the First Man ever Born ? 2


Job 15:7

7 Art thou the first man that was born? or wast thou made before the hills?

The second portion of this verse gives us more insight into who this First Man Born is, by the words of inquiry"or wast thou made before the hills?"

The word made here is the hebrew word chuwl and means:


ii.to be brought forth



D.(Hophal) to be born

Which is its meaning in Prov 8:24-25

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Did you notice again the phrase "before the hills" ? Where did we see it before ? Here Job 15:7

7 Art thou the first man that was born? or wast thou made before the hills?

The First Man was born, brought forth before the Hills were ! Prove 8:24-25 is speaking of the Wisdom of God, which is Christ 1 Cor 1:24

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

And who is Christ ? Why He is the The Man Mediator between God and Men 1 Tim 2:5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

He delighted as Mans Mediator before they were Created Prov 8:31

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Some Translations of Prov 8:25

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: are:

before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,NIV

before the mountains were set in place— before the hills—I was born,NET

And before the mountains would be established, and before the hills, I was formed in the womb.Aramaic Bible in Plain English See Ps 110:3

The Septuagint reads:

25 before the mountains were settled, and before all hills, he begets me.

which terms relate to being born, Hence the First Man to be born is the Lord Jesus Christ as The Mediator between God and Men 1 Tim 2:5, The Man Wisdom, and we are His Children if we receive this Mystery Lk 7:35

But wisdom [Christ] is justified by all her children.
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God (the Son) became flesh when the virgin Mary gave birth to Him.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14
 
JLB said:
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59
Why do you think the Jews picked up stones to stone Him when He said this?
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Jesus likened Himself to God, His Father.
 
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