Jesus the Man Before John !

[Randy]

For someone who doesn't want to speak anymore about it you sure have a lot more to say? But I don't mind.

Jesus' flesh was temporal matter. At the same time it was produced by a Divine revelation originating from the eternal God.

And so, that revelation was that Jesus was God, the Divine Son--body, soul, and spirit, regardless of how temporary the flesh of Jesus was. It was the *revelation* that made the body Divine.

The body was produced by the revelation of God and was the revelation of God. It was the body of Jesus, and that body was Jesus.

The revelation depicted Jesus as both man and Divine. And that revelation belonged to God and is trustworthy. The comparison of temporal flesh to eternal Spirit is irrelevant. It is what the revelation was saying that is relevant in this matter.

Please post the scripture that states Jesus had Divine flesh.
The revelation given about the Son who was and is now is that He is the image of the invisible God NOT the invisible God. That the fullness was "pleased" to dwell in Him not that He is that fullness.
That He is the firstborn of all creation. The beginning of the creation of God.

 

[RandyK]

Please post the scripture that states Jesus had Divine flesh.
The revelation given about the Son who was and is now is that He is the image of the invisible God NOT the invisible God. That the fullness was "pleased" to dwell in Him not that He is that fullness.
That He is the firstborn of all creation. The beginning of the creation of God.

Obviously, if Jesus is the "image" of the invisible God, he is not God invisibly, but rather, God visibly. He is an "image" of the invisible God.

This is the whole idea, that God exists before creation, and speaks into creation a visible form of Himself. By definition this creates 2 depictions of God, and not just 1--the invisible God and the visible God-man. Same God depicted differently as 2 distinct Persons.

Being that the revelation is one with the source of that revelation, the verbal expression of God's Son is one with the Father who produced that expression. The Father and the Son are one, substantially and in terms of identification with Deity.

Since Jesus had a physical body, or "flesh," then if he was stated to express the image of Deity and identified as Deity, the entire revelation of him as a man---body, soul, and spirit, were what is being called "God the Son."

Jesus offered a symbol of his flesh in Communion, indicating that his flesh was an important ingredient in our Salvation. It was part of his Deity by revelation. That revelation expressed God in the form of temporal flesh, as well as in the form of eternal human spirit. It all was an expression of Deity, body and spirit.

 

[Randy]

Obviously, if Jesus is the "image" of the invisible God, he is not God invisibly, but rather, God visibly. He is an "image" of the invisible God.

Paul was speaking of the Son who was. "Before all things" "All things made through Him and for Him" The image of the invisible God.
"the Fullness was pleased to dwell in Him"
He didn't state He is the invisible God because that is the Father.

This is the whole idea, that God exists before creation, and speaks into creation a visible form of Himself. By definition this creates 2 depictions of God, and not just 1--the invisible God and the visible God-man. Same God depicted differently as 2 distinct Persons.

God did define Jesus's being. "The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" The Deity of the First and Last in the Son is and remains the Fathers. Jesus therefore has the Fathers very nature in Him. The Radiance of Gods glory and the exact imprint of Gods very being. He is ALL that the Father is. "The image of the Father" God in that context.

Being that the revelation is one with the source of that revelation, the verbal expression of God's Son is one with the Father who produced that expression. The Father and the Son are one, substantially and in terms of identification with Deity.

The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father they are ONE.

Since Jesus had a physical body, or "flesh," then if he was stated to express the image of Deity and identified as Deity, the entire revelation of him as a man---body, soul, and spirit, were what is being called "God the Son."

The Son who was, His Spirit, was in that body. The Deity in Him is the Father living in Him. And again they are ONE.

Jesus offered a symbol of his flesh in Communion, indicating that his flesh was an important ingredient in our Salvation. It was part of his Deity by revelation. That revelation expressed God in the form of temporal flesh, as well as in the form of eternal human spirit. It all was an expression of Deity, body and spirit.

Yet the importance was in the blood. He purchased us for GOD by His blood. Jesus shed His blood for the forgiveness of sins. That has nothing to do with Deity and one may take communion in remembrance of Him. He had a human body and that body died on the cross because it was mortal. His spirit never dies as He lives forever by the living Father in Him.

Not forgiveness which was by His shed blood
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.

The Father gives His Son for us. "God so loved the world...."
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Jesus having a Divine body as the Son of Man is NOT found in the NT. I don't share your belief.

 

[RandyK]

Paul was speaking of the Son who was. "Before all things" "All things made through Him and for Him" The image of the invisible God.
"the Fullness was pleased to dwell in Him"
He didn't state He is the invisible God because that is the Father.

God did define Jesus's being. "The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" The Deity of the First and Last in the Son is and remains the Fathers. Jesus therefore has the Fathers very nature in Him. The Radiance of Gods glory and the exact imprint of Gods very being. He is ALL that the Father is. "The image of the Father" God in that context.

The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father they are ONE.

The Son who was, His Spirit, was in that body. The Deity in Him is the Father living in Him. And again they are ONE.

Yet the importance was in the blood. He purchased us for GOD by His blood. Jesus shed His blood for the forgiveness of sins. That has nothing to do with Deity and one may take communion in remembrance of Him. He had a human body and that body died on the cross because it was mortal. His spirit never dies as He lives forever by the living Father in Him.

Not forgiveness which was by His shed blood
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.

The Father gives His Son for us. "God so loved the world...."
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Jesus having a Divine body as the Son of Man is NOT found in the NT. I don't share your belief.

You're welcome to your own view of the Trinity. Whether it is biblical or not I'll let others determine, apart from my own arguments.

Your argument seems to be that only the Father is Deity, and that Jesus obtains his "Deity" by having the Father in him. Well, yes the Father is in him, but that does not mean Jesus' body is not representative of his Deity.

Jesus' entire being--human spirit, soul, and body all represent God in that they all expresss the revelation of God in that complete human person--not just God within him, but much more, God in the entire human person.

Your argument seems to be that God is impassible, and therefore Jesus' body cannot express Deity, apart from that which is "in him." This was an ancient Greek philosophical presumption, that Deity cannot be confused with temporal realities.

But that isn't true because not only is God the source of Jesus' Deity but Jesus is also the complete expression of God in a finite, human form. It's like saying a segment of a line cannot really express the reality of the line because the segment is finite and the line is infinite.

But in reality, a line segment is really a representation of the infinite line, expressed in a finite representation of the entire line. In the same way the finite, human form of the Son really expresses the infinite God, not just on behalf of what is *within him,* but much more, in all that he is, spirit, soul, and body.

The orthodox formula is "fully God and fully man." You cannot have God indwelling a non-Divine man and still have the Son of God.

 

[Randy]

You're welcome to your own view of the Trinity. Whether it is biblical or not I'll let others determine, apart from my own arguments.

Ditto.

Your argument seems to be that only the Father is Deity, and that Jesus obtains his "Deity" by having the Father in him. Well, yes the Father is in him, but that does not mean Jesus' body is not representative of his Deity.

Correct the Father is the only unbegotten God. Unlike His begotten Firstborn Son. From the will of another. Col 1:19

Jesus' entire being--human spirit, soul, and body all represent God in that they all expresss the revelation of God in that complete human person--not just God within him, but much more, God in the entire human person.

Jesus does not have a human spirit. His Spirit was, as He was, before all things.
I agree the body was fully human and not Divine in any meaning of that word.
The Son who was, His spirit, was in that body.
"Father into your hands I commit "My" spirit"

Your argument seems to be that God is impassible, and therefore Jesus' body cannot express Deity, apart from that which is "in him." This was an ancient Greek philosophical presumption, that Deity cannot be confused with temporal realities.

I have stated the Deity that was pleased to dwell in the Son with His spirit is the Fathers. It was gifted not formed. It remains the Deity of the source true God the Father. And if the Spirit of Christ in you is a new creation then the Deity of the Father in the Son qualifies as a creation of God.
KJV
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God
The Deity of the First and Last in Him is the Father - they are one.

But that isn't true because not only is God the source of Jesus' Deity but Jesus is also the complete expression of God in a finite, human form. It's like saying a segment of a line cannot really express the reality of the line because the segment is finite and the line is infinite.

God's Deity is and remains the Fathers. He lives in His Son in all His fullness. The Son is the very image of the Father in that union. GOD the begotten. They are one.

But in reality, a line segment is really a representation of the infinite line, expressed in a finite representation of the entire line. In the same way the finite, human form of the Son really expresses the infinite God, not just on behalf of what is *within him,* but much more, in all that he is, spirit, soul, and body.

Perhaps you should use scripture instead of what ever this is.

The orthodox formula is "fully God and fully man." You cannot have God indwelling a non-Divine man and still have the Son of God.

If Jesus had a human body and a human spirit what part of Him was God? The only Deity in Him that I read from His testimony is the person of the Father. They are one. He is all that the Father is in that union. God There is only one true unbegotten God. (Deity) I read Jesus stated that was the Father. Perhaps that should be a sign to you why the Father is His God and our God and His Father and our Father.

My creed which does not deny Jesus has the Fathers very nature "living" in Him.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

God is our Father Jesus is our Lord.
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

If you want to discuss the nature found in the Son in that He is God.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is ALL that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

 

[RandyK]

Ditto.

Correct the Father is the only unbegotten God. Unlike His begotten Firstborn Son. From the will of another. Col 1:19

Jesus is the product of Divine revelation, and is, in fact, the Divine Being who has produced this revelation. In begetting a human person who is Divine, there comes to be, of logical necessity, at least two Divine personages.

One cannot say, however, that Jesus is "unbegotten" because by definition he is produced out of a Divine revelation. So we at least agree that Jesus was "begotten"--not "unbegotten." He was only "unbegotten" in his pre-existent, pre-human state, as I see it.

Jesus does not have a human spirit. His Spirit was, as He was, before all things.
I agree the body was fully human and not Divine in any meaning of that word.

To be clear, you are *not* agreeing with me when you say that Jesus' body was "fully human and not Divine." We do not agree on this. Nor do I agree with you that Jesus did not have a "human spirit." If Jesus did not have a human spirit he was not, in my view, "fully human."

To replace Jesus human spirit with the Holy Spirit is similar to the early heretics whose Christology tried to render Jesus a kind of hybrid God-man, neither fully God nor fully man. For example, Apollinarianism replaced Jesus' human mind with the Divine Logos, or Word of God. It was rejected by the Church Councils.

If Jesus had a human body and a human spirit what part of Him was God?

All of Jesus was Divine--body, soul, and human spirit. He was the product of Divine revelation designed to reveal God's identity and personality in human form.

Randy, this is difficult stuff. The reason I got into it way back in the mid-70s is because I landed in a Christian cult--some good Christians feel it is so close to orthodoxy that they deny it is really a cult at all.

But I had to figure it out because they were accused of being modalists. In the end I had to agree with their detractors--they were, in fact, modalists. I soon got out of there!

But it was a headache, and I felt I had to study all this out. It led me to read some pretty deep material in the early centuries of the Church--the Church Fathers discussed the Trinity, and what is "orthodox," at length. Good luck reading through that! ;)

 

[Randy]

Jesus is the product of Divine revelation, and is, in fact, the Divine Being who has produced this revelation. In begetting a human person who is Divine, there comes to be, of logical necessity, at least two Divine personages.

Really?
But to us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by him.

As I stated the only one Deity of the First and LAST, the Father lives in the Son. In that union the Son is ALL that His Father and God is. (GOD the begotten) His God and Father is unbegotten, the only true God. Col 1:19 -from the will of another, the beginning of the creation of God. A BEGOTTEN SON. Hebrews 1 is about the SON not the Christ as the writer contrasts His Sonship vs the Angels of God.

A singular God; A singular Lord Jesus -With the DEITY of the singular GOD dwelling in His Son. They are ONE in that manner and the Son is the image of HIS God and Father in that manner.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

One cannot say, however, that Jesus is "unbegotten" because by definition he is produced out of a Divine revelation. So we at least agree that Jesus was "begotten"--not "unbegotten." He was only "unbegotten" in his pre-existent, pre-human state, as I see it.

His spirit is begotten. The Deity of the Father that was pleased to dwell in Him is unbegotten. Jesus is Gods firstborn, before all other things. They are ONE just as Jesus and His dsciples are ONE.. The Father in the Son and the Son in the Father.

To be clear, you are *not* agreeing with me when you say that Jesus' body was "fully human and not Divine." We do not agree on this. Nor do I agree with you that Jesus did not have a "human spirit." If Jesus did not have a human spirit he was not, in my view, "fully human."

The body died on the cross. It was human.

To replace Jesus human spirit with the Holy Spirit is similar to the early heretics whose Christology tried to render Jesus a kind of hybrid God-man, neither fully God nor fully man. For example, Apollinarianism replaced Jesus' human mind with the Divine Logos, or Word of God. It was rejected by the Church Councils.

Jesus's spirit is not Deity, but He was before the world began so not human either. Again the Deity in the Son is the person of the Father. They are one. Its clear to me the Son who was, His spirit, was in the body God prepared for Him and the one living in Him is the Father.

All of Jesus was Divine--body, soul, and human spirit. He was the product of Divine revelation designed to reveal God's identity and personality in human form.

You speak with a forked tongue as you state Jesus has a human spirit and a human body as well. What other part of a being is there?

Randy, this is difficult stuff. The reason I got into it way back in the mid-70s is because I landed in a Christian cult--some good Christians feel it is so close to orthodoxy that they deny it is really a cult at all.

Its not difficult. YOUR explanation of what is so clearly has a foundation of Mystery. Mine does not. Do you believe Jesus has always been the Son?

But I had to figure it out because they were accused of being modalists. In the end I had to agree with their detractors--they were, in fact, modalists. I soon got out of there!

All the fullness of God the Father dwells in His Son, by His will and at His command, and the Son is ALL that His Father is. GOD, but He is a Son, NOT GOD

But it was a headache, and I felt I had to study all this out. It led me to read some pretty deep material in the early centuries of the Church--the Church Fathers discussed the Trinity, and what is "orthodox," at length. Good luck reading through that! ;)

I have believed in and prayed to Jesus as far back as my memory goes. I asked HIM, "Can anyone explain the Trinity"

He is Gods Firstborn and has always been the Son. The Firstborn of all creation, (His spirit) He has a beginning at some point in history before the world began. The God who sits on the throne in heaven has always been HIS God and Father.

He purchased us for His God by His blood according to the will and command of God.
Col 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself, (singular),all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

He has made us a Kingdom of priests to serve HIS GOD AND FATHER.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is ALL that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

I agree in part.
Begotten of the Father before all things but not made.

 

[RandyK]

Really?
But to us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by him.

I said there are, of necessity, at least 2 personages of God, Father and Son. And here you question that by referring to both the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ?

As I stated the only one Deity of the First and LAST, the Father lives in the Son.

Using that argument, the Son is a mere man, because God lives in us, mere men. "Living in a man" does not indicate anything except that Christ is the Son of God only by virtue of being perfect and sinless, or perfectly conformed to the Father.

And yet the Church will one day be perfect and sinless, as well. So what is the difference between Christ and the Church?

A singular God; A singular Lord Jesus -With the DEITY of the singular GOD dwelling in His Son. They are ONE in that manner and the Son is the image of HIS God and Father in that manner.

Same as above.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Jesus said we would all inherit the earth if we were meek.

Jesus's spirit is not Deity, but He was before the world began so not human either.

If Jesus' human spirit is not Divine, then he is not God at all. That is heresy from the standpoint of the creeds.

You speak with a forked tongue as you state Jesus has a human spirit and a human body as well. What other part of a being is there?

A "forked tongue?" I'm telling you what I believe and that I agree with the creeds.

Its not difficult. YOUR explanation of what is so clearly has a foundation of Mystery. Mine does not. Do you believe Jesus has always been the Son?

No, this is a language problem. The person who in time came to be identified as the Son previously existed as the Word of God, or God's means of revelation. He obviously did not previously exist as the "Son of God" in terms of being the Divine Man we know as Jesus. Jesus came to be known as "the Son" in time, but can be identified with the Person of God prior to his Incarnation.

I have believed in and prayed to Jesus as far back as my memory goes. I asked HIM, "Can anyone explain the Trinity"

We can both explain and understand the Trinity, though only with the limitations of our finite minds. We obviously cannot, as finite creatures, understand what "infinite existence" is. We can only understand it as God introduces Himself to us in the form of finite understanding.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is ALL that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

This is, in my view, contradictory. You say that Jesus was always "the Son," and yet that term is associated with time, and not eternity.

Jesus' previous existence in eternity was not as a human "Son," but rather, as the eternal Word of God, who can bring into time a revelation of His own Person.

In denying Jesus' human spirit you render him neither the Son of God nor the Son of Man. You replace his human spirit with the Father when the Father and the Son are distinguished in Scriptures as 2 distinct Divine Persons.

A purely "moral unity" between Father and Son does not denote identification with a single God. A strictly "conjunctive" or "economic" Trinity does not sufficiently explain the unity between Father and Son. The Word of God must *reveal* the Son as a man and identify him as a personal expession of God Himself explicitly.