Jesus the Man Before John !

[Randy]

For someone who doesn't want to speak anymore about it you sure have a lot more to say? But I don't mind.

Jesus' flesh was temporal matter. At the same time it was produced by a Divine revelation originating from the eternal God.

And so, that revelation was that Jesus was God, the Divine Son--body, soul, and spirit, regardless of how temporary the flesh of Jesus was. It was the *revelation* that made the body Divine.

The body was produced by the revelation of God and was the revelation of God. It was the body of Jesus, and that body was Jesus.

The revelation depicted Jesus as both man and Divine. And that revelation belonged to God and is trustworthy. The comparison of temporal flesh to eternal Spirit is irrelevant. It is what the revelation was saying that is relevant in this matter.

Please post the scripture that states Jesus had Divine flesh.
The revelation given about the Son who was and is now is that He is the image of the invisible God NOT the invisible God. That the fullness was "pleased" to dwell in Him not that He is that fullness.
That He is the firstborn of all creation. The beginning of the creation of God.

 

[RandyK]

Please post the scripture that states Jesus had Divine flesh.
The revelation given about the Son who was and is now is that He is the image of the invisible God NOT the invisible God. That the fullness was "pleased" to dwell in Him not that He is that fullness.
That He is the firstborn of all creation. The beginning of the creation of God.

Obviously, if Jesus is the "image" of the invisible God, he is not God invisibly, but rather, God visibly. He is an "image" of the invisible God.

This is the whole idea, that God exists before creation, and speaks into creation a visible form of Himself. By definition this creates 2 depictions of God, and not just 1--the invisible God and the visible God-man. Same God depicted differently as 2 distinct Persons.

Being that the revelation is one with the source of that revelation, the verbal expression of God's Son is one with the Father who produced that expression. The Father and the Son are one, substantially and in terms of identification with Deity.

Since Jesus had a physical body, or "flesh," then if he was stated to express the image of Deity and identified as Deity, the entire revelation of him as a man---body, soul, and spirit, were what is being called "God the Son."

Jesus offered a symbol of his flesh in Communion, indicating that his flesh was an important ingredient in our Salvation. It was part of his Deity by revelation. That revelation expressed God in the form of temporal flesh, as well as in the form of eternal human spirit. It all was an expression of Deity, body and spirit.

 

[Randy]

Obviously, if Jesus is the "image" of the invisible God, he is not God invisibly, but rather, God visibly. He is an "image" of the invisible God.

Paul was speaking of the Son who was. "Before all things" "All things made through Him and for Him" The image of the invisible God.
"the Fullness was pleased to dwell in Him"
He didn't state He is the invisible God because that is the Father.

This is the whole idea, that God exists before creation, and speaks into creation a visible form of Himself. By definition this creates 2 depictions of God, and not just 1--the invisible God and the visible God-man. Same God depicted differently as 2 distinct Persons.

God did define Jesus's being. "The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" The Deity of the First and Last in the Son is and remains the Fathers. Jesus therefore has the Fathers very nature in Him. The Radiance of Gods glory and the exact imprint of Gods very being. He is ALL that the Father is. "The image of the Father" God in that context.

Being that the revelation is one with the source of that revelation, the verbal expression of God's Son is one with the Father who produced that expression. The Father and the Son are one, substantially and in terms of identification with Deity.

The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father they are ONE.

Since Jesus had a physical body, or "flesh," then if he was stated to express the image of Deity and identified as Deity, the entire revelation of him as a man---body, soul, and spirit, were what is being called "God the Son."

The Son who was, His Spirit, was in that body. The Deity in Him is the Father living in Him. And again they are ONE.

Jesus offered a symbol of his flesh in Communion, indicating that his flesh was an important ingredient in our Salvation. It was part of his Deity by revelation. That revelation expressed God in the form of temporal flesh, as well as in the form of eternal human spirit. It all was an expression of Deity, body and spirit.

Yet the importance was in the blood. He purchased us for GOD by His blood. Jesus shed His blood for the forgiveness of sins. That has nothing to do with Deity and one may take communion in remembrance of Him. He had a human body and that body died on the cross because it was mortal. His spirit never dies as He lives forever by the living Father in Him.

Not forgiveness which was by His shed blood
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.

The Father gives His Son for us. "God so loved the world...."
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Jesus having a Divine body as the Son of Man is NOT found in the NT. I don't share your belief.

 

[RandyK]

Paul was speaking of the Son who was. "Before all things" "All things made through Him and for Him" The image of the invisible God.
"the Fullness was pleased to dwell in Him"
He didn't state He is the invisible God because that is the Father.

God did define Jesus's being. "The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" The Deity of the First and Last in the Son is and remains the Fathers. Jesus therefore has the Fathers very nature in Him. The Radiance of Gods glory and the exact imprint of Gods very being. He is ALL that the Father is. "The image of the Father" God in that context.

The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father they are ONE.

The Son who was, His Spirit, was in that body. The Deity in Him is the Father living in Him. And again they are ONE.

Yet the importance was in the blood. He purchased us for GOD by His blood. Jesus shed His blood for the forgiveness of sins. That has nothing to do with Deity and one may take communion in remembrance of Him. He had a human body and that body died on the cross because it was mortal. His spirit never dies as He lives forever by the living Father in Him.

Not forgiveness which was by His shed blood
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.

The Father gives His Son for us. "God so loved the world...."
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Jesus having a Divine body as the Son of Man is NOT found in the NT. I don't share your belief.

You're welcome to your own view of the Trinity. Whether it is biblical or not I'll let others determine, apart from my own arguments.

Your argument seems to be that only the Father is Deity, and that Jesus obtains his "Deity" by having the Father in him. Well, yes the Father is in him, but that does not mean Jesus' body is not representative of his Deity.

Jesus' entire being--human spirit, soul, and body all represent God in that they all expresss the revelation of God in that complete human person--not just God within him, but much more, God in the entire human person.

Your argument seems to be that God is impassible, and therefore Jesus' body cannot express Deity, apart from that which is "in him." This was an ancient Greek philosophical presumption, that Deity cannot be confused with temporal realities.

But that isn't true because not only is God the source of Jesus' Deity but Jesus is also the complete expression of God in a finite, human form. It's like saying a segment of a line cannot really express the reality of the line because the segment is finite and the line is infinite.

But in reality, a line segment is really a representation of the infinite line, expressed in a finite representation of the entire line. In the same way the finite, human form of the Son really expresses the infinite God, not just on behalf of what is *within him,* but much more, in all that he is, spirit, soul, and body.

The orthodox formula is "fully God and fully man." You cannot have God indwelling a non-Divine man and still have the Son of God.

 

[Randy]

You're welcome to your own view of the Trinity. Whether it is biblical or not I'll let others determine, apart from my own arguments.

Ditto.

Your argument seems to be that only the Father is Deity, and that Jesus obtains his "Deity" by having the Father in him. Well, yes the Father is in him, but that does not mean Jesus' body is not representative of his Deity.

Correct the Father is the only unbegotten God. Unlike His begotten Firstborn Son. From the will of another. Col 1:19

Jesus' entire being--human spirit, soul, and body all represent God in that they all expresss the revelation of God in that complete human person--not just God within him, but much more, God in the entire human person.

Jesus does not have a human spirit. His Spirit was, as He was, before all things.
I agree the body was fully human and not Divine in any meaning of that word.
The Son who was, His spirit, was in that body.
"Father into your hands I commit "My" spirit"

Your argument seems to be that God is impassible, and therefore Jesus' body cannot express Deity, apart from that which is "in him." This was an ancient Greek philosophical presumption, that Deity cannot be confused with temporal realities.

I have stated the Deity that was pleased to dwell in the Son with His spirit is the Fathers. It was gifted not formed. It remains the Deity of the source true God the Father. And if the Spirit of Christ in you is a new creation then the Deity of the Father in the Son qualifies as a creation of God.
KJV
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God
The Deity of the First and Last in Him is the Father - they are one.

But that isn't true because not only is God the source of Jesus' Deity but Jesus is also the complete expression of God in a finite, human form. It's like saying a segment of a line cannot really express the reality of the line because the segment is finite and the line is infinite.

God's Deity is and remains the Fathers. He lives in His Son in all His fullness. The Son is the very image of the Father in that union. GOD the begotten. They are one.

But in reality, a line segment is really a representation of the infinite line, expressed in a finite representation of the entire line. In the same way the finite, human form of the Son really expresses the infinite God, not just on behalf of what is *within him,* but much more, in all that he is, spirit, soul, and body.

Perhaps you should use scripture instead of what ever this is.

The orthodox formula is "fully God and fully man." You cannot have God indwelling a non-Divine man and still have the Son of God.

If Jesus had a human body and a human spirit what part of Him was God? The only Deity in Him that I read from His testimony is the person of the Father. They are one. He is all that the Father is in that union. God There is only one true unbegotten God. (Deity) I read Jesus stated that was the Father. Perhaps that should be a sign to you why the Father is His God and our God and His Father and our Father.

My creed which does not deny Jesus has the Fathers very nature "living" in Him.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

God is our Father Jesus is our Lord.
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

If you want to discuss the nature found in the Son in that He is God.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is ALL that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

 

[RandyK]

Ditto.

Correct the Father is the only unbegotten God. Unlike His begotten Firstborn Son. From the will of another. Col 1:19

Jesus is the product of Divine revelation, and is, in fact, the Divine Being who has produced this revelation. In begetting a human person who is Divine, there comes to be, of logical necessity, at least two Divine personages.

One cannot say, however, that Jesus is "unbegotten" because by definition he is produced out of a Divine revelation. So we at least agree that Jesus was "begotten"--not "unbegotten." He was only "unbegotten" in his pre-existent, pre-human state, as I see it.

Jesus does not have a human spirit. His Spirit was, as He was, before all things.
I agree the body was fully human and not Divine in any meaning of that word.

To be clear, you are *not* agreeing with me when you say that Jesus' body was "fully human and not Divine." We do not agree on this. Nor do I agree with you that Jesus did not have a "human spirit." If Jesus did not have a human spirit he was not, in my view, "fully human."

To replace Jesus human spirit with the Holy Spirit is similar to the early heretics whose Christology tried to render Jesus a kind of hybrid God-man, neither fully God nor fully man. For example, Apollinarianism replaced Jesus' human mind with the Divine Logos, or Word of God. It was rejected by the Church Councils.

If Jesus had a human body and a human spirit what part of Him was God?

All of Jesus was Divine--body, soul, and human spirit. He was the product of Divine revelation designed to reveal God's identity and personality in human form.

Randy, this is difficult stuff. The reason I got into it way back in the mid-70s is because I landed in a Christian cult--some good Christians feel it is so close to orthodoxy that they deny it is really a cult at all.

But I had to figure it out because they were accused of being modalists. In the end I had to agree with their detractors--they were, in fact, modalists. I soon got out of there!

But it was a headache, and I felt I had to study all this out. It led me to read some pretty deep material in the early centuries of the Church--the Church Fathers discussed the Trinity, and what is "orthodox," at length. Good luck reading through that! ;)

 

[Randy]

Jesus is the product of Divine revelation, and is, in fact, the Divine Being who has produced this revelation. In begetting a human person who is Divine, there comes to be, of logical necessity, at least two Divine personages.

Really?
But to us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by him.

As I stated the only one Deity of the First and LAST, the Father lives in the Son. In that union the Son is ALL that His Father and God is. (GOD the begotten) His God and Father is unbegotten, the only true God. Col 1:19 -from the will of another, the beginning of the creation of God. A BEGOTTEN SON. Hebrews 1 is about the SON not the Christ as the writer contrasts His Sonship vs the Angels of God.

A singular God; A singular Lord Jesus -With the DEITY of the singular GOD dwelling in His Son. They are ONE in that manner and the Son is the image of HIS God and Father in that manner.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

One cannot say, however, that Jesus is "unbegotten" because by definition he is produced out of a Divine revelation. So we at least agree that Jesus was "begotten"--not "unbegotten." He was only "unbegotten" in his pre-existent, pre-human state, as I see it.

His spirit is begotten. The Deity of the Father that was pleased to dwell in Him is unbegotten. Jesus is Gods firstborn, before all other things. They are ONE just as Jesus and His dsciples are ONE.. The Father in the Son and the Son in the Father.

To be clear, you are *not* agreeing with me when you say that Jesus' body was "fully human and not Divine." We do not agree on this. Nor do I agree with you that Jesus did not have a "human spirit." If Jesus did not have a human spirit he was not, in my view, "fully human."

The body died on the cross. It was human.

To replace Jesus human spirit with the Holy Spirit is similar to the early heretics whose Christology tried to render Jesus a kind of hybrid God-man, neither fully God nor fully man. For example, Apollinarianism replaced Jesus' human mind with the Divine Logos, or Word of God. It was rejected by the Church Councils.

Jesus's spirit is not Deity, but He was before the world began so not human either. Again the Deity in the Son is the person of the Father. They are one. Its clear to me the Son who was, His spirit, was in the body God prepared for Him and the one living in Him is the Father.

All of Jesus was Divine--body, soul, and human spirit. He was the product of Divine revelation designed to reveal God's identity and personality in human form.

You speak with a forked tongue as you state Jesus has a human spirit and a human body as well. What other part of a being is there?

Randy, this is difficult stuff. The reason I got into it way back in the mid-70s is because I landed in a Christian cult--some good Christians feel it is so close to orthodoxy that they deny it is really a cult at all.

Its not difficult. YOUR explanation of what is so clearly has a foundation of Mystery. Mine does not. Do you believe Jesus has always been the Son?

But I had to figure it out because they were accused of being modalists. In the end I had to agree with their detractors--they were, in fact, modalists. I soon got out of there!

All the fullness of God the Father dwells in His Son, by His will and at His command, and the Son is ALL that His Father is. GOD, but He is a Son, NOT GOD

But it was a headache, and I felt I had to study all this out. It led me to read some pretty deep material in the early centuries of the Church--the Church Fathers discussed the Trinity, and what is "orthodox," at length. Good luck reading through that! ;)

I have believed in and prayed to Jesus as far back as my memory goes. I asked HIM, "Can anyone explain the Trinity"

He is Gods Firstborn and has always been the Son. The Firstborn of all creation, (His spirit) He has a beginning at some point in history before the world began. The God who sits on the throne in heaven has always been HIS God and Father.

He purchased us for His God by His blood according to the will and command of God.
Col 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself, (singular),all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

He has made us a Kingdom of priests to serve HIS GOD AND FATHER.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is ALL that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

I agree in part.
Begotten of the Father before all things but not made.

 

[RandyK]

Really?
But to us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by him.

I said there are, of necessity, at least 2 personages of God, Father and Son. And here you question that by referring to both the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ?

As I stated the only one Deity of the First and LAST, the Father lives in the Son.

Using that argument, the Son is a mere man, because God lives in us, mere men. "Living in a man" does not indicate anything except that Christ is the Son of God only by virtue of being perfect and sinless, or perfectly conformed to the Father.

And yet the Church will one day be perfect and sinless, as well. So what is the difference between Christ and the Church?

A singular God; A singular Lord Jesus -With the DEITY of the singular GOD dwelling in His Son. They are ONE in that manner and the Son is the image of HIS God and Father in that manner.

Same as above.

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Jesus said we would all inherit the earth if we were meek.

Jesus's spirit is not Deity, but He was before the world began so not human either.

If Jesus' human spirit is not Divine, then he is not God at all. That is heresy from the standpoint of the creeds.

You speak with a forked tongue as you state Jesus has a human spirit and a human body as well. What other part of a being is there?

A "forked tongue?" I'm telling you what I believe and that I agree with the creeds.

Its not difficult. YOUR explanation of what is so clearly has a foundation of Mystery. Mine does not. Do you believe Jesus has always been the Son?

No, this is a language problem. The person who in time came to be identified as the Son previously existed as the Word of God, or God's means of revelation. He obviously did not previously exist as the "Son of God" in terms of being the Divine Man we know as Jesus. Jesus came to be known as "the Son" in time, but can be identified with the Person of God prior to his Incarnation.

I have believed in and prayed to Jesus as far back as my memory goes. I asked HIM, "Can anyone explain the Trinity"

We can both explain and understand the Trinity, though only with the limitations of our finite minds. We obviously cannot, as finite creatures, understand what "infinite existence" is. We can only understand it as God introduces Himself to us in the form of finite understanding.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is ALL that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

This is, in my view, contradictory. You say that Jesus was always "the Son," and yet that term is associated with time, and not eternity.

Jesus' previous existence in eternity was not as a human "Son," but rather, as the eternal Word of God, who can bring into time a revelation of His own Person.

In denying Jesus' human spirit you render him neither the Son of God nor the Son of Man. You replace his human spirit with the Father when the Father and the Son are distinguished in Scriptures as 2 distinct Divine Persons.

A purely "moral unity" between Father and Son does not denote identification with a single God. A strictly "conjunctive" or "economic" Trinity does not sufficiently explain the unity between Father and Son. The Word of God must *reveal* the Son as a man and identify him as a personal expession of God Himself explicitly.

 

[Randy]

I said there are, of necessity, at least 2 personages of God, Father and Son. And here you question that by referring to both the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ?

God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

Using that argument, the Son is a mere man, because God lives in us, mere men. "Living in a man" does not indicate anything except that Christ is the Son of God only by virtue of being perfect and sinless, or perfectly conformed to the Father.

Jesus is a "child" of the Father. (His spirit) In Him did please all the fullness to dwell. In Him, by Him, through Him and for Him GOD made all things. Does that read as any man? Man is of the dust of the earth. Jesus is from heaven. He was and is the Son of Man.
And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

If He is deity in Himself as the Father is then why the need for the Deity to dwell IN Him?
The unbegotten Deity of the First and Last, His Father, lives IN Him. In that unity He is ALL that the Father is. He was raised bodily. A glorified body which we read we ourselves will be like Him. "Imperishable bodies" at the resurrection.
KJV
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


As Jesus stated at His trial to His accusers, "In the future tense" -"
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

And yet the Church will one day be perfect and sinless, as well. So what is the difference between Christ and the Church?

I assume you mean the body of Christ when you state church.
Hebrews 1 -About the Son as contrasted the superiority His Sonship vs the Angels of God -Certainly then far superior to any man in the body of Christ. You really can't see such a difference?
The church redeemed by His blood. We are from the earth. He is from heaven.

Same as above.

Jesus said we would all inherit the earth if we were meek.

He said lots of things. I'm not sure how that makes your case. We are saved by grace through faith not by being meek. To those who overcome He will give us a place on His throne just as the Father gave Him a place on His throne.
We will rule the nations with a iron scepter
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

2;And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

If Jesus' human spirit is not Divine, then he is not God at all. That is heresy from the standpoint of the creeds.

HE DOES NOT HAVE A HUMAN SPIRIT. NOW you're defining a human spirit as divine. That makes no sense to me.
The Deity in Him is the Fathers. The Only true unbegotten God.
Jesus is begotten

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

A "forked tongue?" I'm telling you what I believe and that I agree with the creeds.

No, this is a language problem. The person who in time came to be identified as the Son previously existed as the Word of God, or God's means of revelation. He obviously did not previously exist as the "Son of God" in terms of being the Divine Man we know as Jesus. Jesus came to be known as "the Son" in time, but can be identified with the Person of God prior to his Incarnation.

Hebrews 1 -about the Son not about the Christ.
"God" made all things through Him. -Which actually is in the Nicene creed.

I telling you I agree in part.
Begotten of the Father before all things but not made.

We can both explain and understand the Trinity, though only with the limitations of our finite minds. We obviously cannot, as finite creatures, understand what "infinite existence" is. We can only understand it as God introduces Himself to us in the form of finite understanding.

I know who my Lord is. He is Gods Firstborn, (His spirit), as in a child of the Father and Has always been the Son. One in whom
God was pleased that His Deity in all His fullness would dwell forever. Such a Son has the Fathers very nature in Him. (God)

This is, in my view, contradictory. You say that Jesus was always "the Son," and yet that term is associated with time, and not eternity.

In the context He is the Fathers "child".

Jesus' previous existence in eternity was not as a human "Son," but rather, as the eternal Word of God, who can bring into time a revelation of His own Person.

He's the Word of the Father. You couldn't testify Jesus was with the Father in beginning because the Son of Man didn't exist at that point in that form. His spirit existed as a Son though and one in whom all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.

The Word of the Father. (God)
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Likewise in the creation I reason the same. The Deity of the Father living in Him doing His work.
God spoke to us by His Son.
God created all things by His Son.

In denying Jesus' human spirit you render him neither the Son of God nor the Son of Man. You replace his human spirit with the Father when the Father and the Son are distinguished in Scriptures as 2 distinct Divine Persons.

Your reasoning is rejected.
It's clear to me the Son who was, "His spirit", was in that body. He was before the world began. While not deity in Himself certainly not a human spirit. And living IN HIM was the Fathers Deity. The "Fathers works" He performed testify that He and the Father are ONE.
"Father into your Hands I commit "My" spirit"

A purely "moral unity" between Father and Son does not denote identification with a single God. A strictly "conjunctive" or "economic" Trinity does not sufficiently explain the unity between Father and Son. The Word of God must *reveal* the Son as a man and identify him as a personal expession of God Himself explicitly.

Well the very Father Himself was living in His Son doing His work as I read.

 

[RandyK]

God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

Jesus is a "child" of the Father. (His spirit) In Him did please all the fullness to dwell. In Him, by Him, through Him and for Him GOD made all things. Does that read as any man? Man is of the dust of the earth. Jesus is from heaven. He was and is the Son of Man.
And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

If He is deity in Himself as the Father is then why the need for the Deity to dwell IN Him?
The unbegotten Deity of the First and Last, His Father, lives IN Him. In that unity He is ALL that the Father is. He was raised bodily. A glorified body which we read we ourselves will be like Him. "Imperishable bodies" at the resurrection.
KJV
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


As Jesus stated at His trial to His accusers, "In the future tense" -"
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

I assume you mean the body of Christ when you state church.
Hebrews 1 -About the Son as contrasted the superiority His Sonship vs the Angels of God -Certainly then far superior to any man in the body of Christ. You really can't see such a difference?
The church redeemed by His blood. We are from the earth. He is from heaven.


He said lots of things. I'm not sure how that makes your case. We are saved by grace through faith not by being meek. To those who overcome He will give us a place on His throne just as the Father gave Him a place on His throne.
We will rule the nations with a iron scepter
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

2;And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.




HE DOES NOT HAVE A HUMAN SPIRIT. NOW you're defining a human spirit as divine. That makes no sense to me.
The Deity in Him is the Fathers. The Only true unbegotten God.
Jesus is begotten

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

Hebrews 1 -about the Son not about the Christ.
"God" made all things through Him. -Which actually is in the Nicene creed.

I telling you I agree in part.
Begotten of the Father before all things but not made.

I know who my Lord is. He is Gods Firstborn, (His spirit), as in a child of the Father and Has always been the Son. One in whom
God was pleased that His Deity in all His fullness would dwell forever. Such a Son has the Fathers very nature in Him. (God)

In the context He is the Fathers "child".

He's the Word of the Father. You couldn't testify Jesus was with the Father in beginning because the Son of Man didn't exist at that point in that form. His spirit existed as a Son though and one in whom all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.

The Word of the Father. (God)
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Likewise in the creation I reason the same. The Deity of the Father living in Him doing His work.
God spoke to us by His Son.
God created all things by His Son.


Your reasoning is rejected.
It's clear to me the Son who was, "His spirit", was in that body. He was before the world began. While not deity in Himself certainly not a human spirit. And living IN HIM was the Fathers Deity. The "Fathers works" He performed testify that He and the Father are ONE.
"Father into your Hands I commit "My" spirit"

Well the very Father Himself was living in His Son doing His work as I read.

I could answer every point, but I'm not sure it would do much good for you, for me, or for anybody else. The big point in our disagreement, which is non-negotiable from my perspective, is your claim that Jesus did not have a human spirit, and that he was not God, merely having the Father "in him."

I don't think anybody in the Church, apart from heretics, have believed this short of thing. It seems like you're just inventing things to make what the Bible says about the Father and Son sensible to your own mind. But it contradicts common sense understanding that all men, including Christ, have human spirits, and that the Son of God is indicated to *be God,* and not just have God living "in him."

But I suppose you're going to go on believing what makes sense to you. I just wonder what school of theology you belong to?

 

[Hopeful 2]

If Jesus has always existed, then doesn't the trinity become a quadrinity ?
God, the Word, Jesus, and the Spirit ?

 

[Randy]

I could answer every point, but I'm not sure it would do much good for you, for me, or for anybody else. The big point in our disagreement, which is non-negotiable from my perspective, is your claim that Jesus did not have a human spirit, and that he was not God, merely having the Father "in him."

I don't think anybody in the Church, apart from heretics, have believed this short of thing. It seems like you're just inventing things to make what the Bible says about the Father and Son sensible to your own mind. But it contradicts common sense understanding that all men, including Christ, have human spirits, and that the Son of God is indicated to *be God,* and not just have God living "in him."

But I suppose you're going to go on believing what makes sense to you. I just wonder what school of theology you belong to?

The premise of my understanding is not from Man but from above I asked My Lord, "Can anyone explain the trinity"
"The Firstborn of all creation" He is God's Firstborn and has always been the Son. This Judgment I received from above.
True God from true God? How is He "From" another as a Son but has no beginning?
Its God "FROM" true God. I do state He has the Fathers very nature in Him. And in that context He is ALL that the Father is. GOD

You believe Jesus's spirit was formed in Mary's womb. I believe Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God. (His spirit) and the Son who was, His spirit, descended from heaven and was placed by God in the body that was prepared for Him. And His spirit ascended to where He was before.

If Jesus had a human spirit and human body what part of His living being was God? AND how do you state "HE" descended from above? What part of Him?

And it is His spirit, "Father into your hands I commit My spirit" We disagree on the beginning of His spirit.

I agree in part
Begotten of the Father alone before all things but not made.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is ALL that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son

To us there is but ONE God, the Father.
One God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ as stated in the beginning. I hold to this statement.
NOT HIM BUT IN HIM. From the will of another. One who defined His being
And Jesus is the radiance of the Fathers glory and the exact imprint of the Fathers being for in Him was pleased to dwell ALL the fullness of the Deity of the First and Last, His stated GOD and FATHER. They are one in this manner as "Jesus" taught. The "Fathers" works He performed do not testify He is Yahweh, they testify that the " Father" is in Him and that He and the Father are "one".

Who is My God?
“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and YOUR God.”

WE will have to agree to disagree as I can not unknown the answers I received from above. I use TRUTH. I use scripture, I use reasoning.

Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how does this believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross Father into your hands I commit "MY" spirit"

Your firm foundation that you cling to is "Mystery'

 

[RandyK]

The premise of my understanding is not from Man but from above I asked My Lord, "Can anyone explain the trinity"
"The Firstborn of all creation" He is God's Firstborn and has always been the Son. This Judgment I received from above.
True God from true God? How is He "From" another as a Son but has no beginning?
Its God "FROM" true God. I do state He has the Fathers very nature in Him. And in that context He is ALL that the Father is. GOD

You believe Jesus's spirit was formed in Mary's womb. I believe Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God. (His spirit) and the Son who was, His spirit, descended from heaven and was placed by God in the body that was prepared for Him. And His spirit ascended to where He was before.

If Jesus had a human spirit and human body what part of His living being was God? AND how do you state "HE" descended from above? What part of Him?

And it is His spirit, "Father into your hands I commit My spirit" We disagree on the beginning of His spirit.

I agree in part
Begotten of the Father alone before all things but not made.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is ALL that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son

To us there is but ONE God, the Father.
One God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ as stated in the beginning. I hold to this statement.
NOT HIM BUT IN HIM. From the will of another. One who defined His being
And Jesus is the radiance of the Fathers glory and the exact imprint of the Fathers being for in Him was pleased to dwell ALL the fullness of the Deity of the First and Last, His stated GOD and FATHER. They are one in this manner as "Jesus" taught. The "Fathers" works He performed do not testify He is Yahweh, they testify that the " Father" is in Him and that He and the Father are "one".

Who is My God?
“Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and YOUR God.”

WE will have to agree to disagree as I can not unknown the answers I received from above. I use TRUTH. I use scripture, I use reasoning.

Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how does this believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross Father into your hands I commit "MY" spirit"

Your firm foundation that you cling to is "Mystery'

You engage in a couple of ancient heresies, even if coined in different terms. It's a form of Patripassianism, or Monarchial Modalism. You see the Father and Son as both expressions of one Person--the Father. This is the Father separate from the Son, and the Father in the Son, rendering both "God."

But by denying the Son a human spirit he is more like a phantom than a human person. Like Docetism, he isn't really experiencing humanity, but is really the Father in a human body (this is different from Docetism).

That is critically opposed to God suffering via His Son as an entire man, containing a human spirit. Without that, redemption could not have been completed.

The idea of an eternal Son in the figure of a God who temorarily indwelled a human body is purely nonsensical. If the Son was "God" only because of God's indwelling him, never having had a human spirit, then he never could've been "God." The "Son" was never a true man, and the man was never truly the eternal God.

Prior to becoming a man he had to exist not as a man but as something else. You call him the "eternal Son" without any sense as to what this really means. For you, the Father and the Son appear to be indistinguishable. They are both the eternal God. They are both the "Father."

This is modalism. The idea that God's Word can express God's Person in the finite form of the Son is simply disbelieved. The effort to explain the transfer from the infinite to finite expressions of such leads to miscommunication and misinterpretation of biblical truths, and to error.

I call the preexistent form of the Son the "Word of God" because both his preexistent Person and his manifest human Person have in common God's ability to create and to reveal things, including finite expressions of His own Being and Person.

As such, Jesus' human spirit was part of the expression of God's Person in the form of a human person. By denying this you claim that God's Word is unable to present a human spirit who is identified as being God's Person.

This is error and heresy, in my view. Even if you have some things right, the confusion you create disrupts the good you wish to do.

 

[Randy]

You engage in a couple of ancient heresies, even if coined in different terms. It's a form of Patripassianism, or Monarchial Modalism. You see the Father and Son as both expressions of one Person--the Father. This is the Father separate from the Son, and the Father in the Son, rendering both "God."

But by denying the Son a human spirit he is more like a phantom than a human person. Like Docetism, he isn't really experiencing humanity, but is really the Father in a human body (this is different from Docetism).

You just go on with your perceived notions and never address the questions asked. It's clear to me the Son who was, His spirit, was in the body prepared for Him. While His spirit is not human it's also not the Spirit of the first and Last. If Jesus has a human spirit and human body what part of Him was God? And what part of the Son who was descended from above?

There is only one Spirit. Why would Jesus need to receive His own Spirit from the Father?
Acts 2
Exalted to the right hand of God,he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

That is critically opposed to God suffering via His Son as an entire man, containing a human spirit. Without that, redemption could not have been completed.

He did suffer and committed "His" spirit into the Fathers hands. His human body died on the cross as put to death in the flesh.

The idea of an eternal Son in the figure of a God who temorarily indwelled a human body is purely nonsensical. If the Son was "God" only because of God's indwelling him, never having had a human spirit, then he never could've been "God." The "Son" was never a true man, and the man was never truly the eternal God.

Jesus is the image of the invisible God NOT the invisible God.
The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. He is not that Deity. If He was Deity then it makes no sense to state the Fullness was "pleased"to dwell in Him. (From the will of another) A other who begot Him at some point in history before the world began. A child of God the Father.
The Spirit of the Father is living in Him without limit. He is not a expression or attribute of God He is ALL that the Father is and they are ONE.
Hebrews 1
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being,sustaining all things by his powerful word.

Prior to becoming a man he had to exist not as a man but as something else. You call him the "eternal Son" without any sense as to what this really means. For you, the Father and the Son appear to be indistinguishable. They are both the eternal God. They are both the "Father."

He existed as the Firstborn of the Father and one in whom all the fullness of God the Father was pleased to dwell.
About the Son

Why the need?
When God brings the Firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him.
The church of the Firstborn.

God appoints His Firstborn to Davids line and Davids line is established forever.

Psalm 89 The Christ is the most exalted not David
And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
28 I will maintain my love to him forever,
and my covenant with him will never fail.
29I will establish his line forever,
his throne as long as the heavens endure.

They shall look on the one they have pierced.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

This is modalism. The idea that God's Word can express God's Person in the finite form of the Son is simply disbelieved. The effort to explain the transfer from the infinite to finite expressions of such leads to miscommunication and misinterpretation of biblical truths, and to error.

Jesus is the Word of Life. The Word of the Father. God has spoken to us in these last days by His Son
Deal with it.
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

I call the preexistent form of the Son the "Word of God" because both his preexistent Person and his manifest human Person have in common God's ability to create and to reveal things, including finite expressions of His own Being and Person.

Word of God and the Word of the Father are the very same thing to me. It was the Fathers message Jesus spoke not His own. God, singular, spoke to us in these last days by His Son.

As such, Jesus' human spirit was part of the expression of God's Person in the form of a human person. By denying this you claim that God's Word is unable to present a human spirit who is identified as being God's Person.

Jesus's spirit existed before the world began. He is the Firstborn of the Father. His spirit is not human. He descended from Heaven, His spirit. He did not start life in Mary's womb. It's just stated so -fully human and fully God but not defined in any reasonable manner. A Mystery. If He had a Human body and a newly formed Human spirit then what part came from heaven and what part of Him was God?

This is error and heresy, in my view. Even if you have some things right, the confusion you create disrupts the good you wish to do.

Yes, I know you believe its error but you are the one mistaken.
It's God from true God. He is the begotten God, unlike His God and Father who is unbegotten.

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

It's begotten of the Father alone before all other things with a beginning as the beginning of the creation of God.
(His spirit) The Deity of the First and Last, the Father, that dwells in Him at God will is unbegotten. They are ONE.

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God

 

[RandyK]

You just go on with your perceived notions and never address the questions asked. It's clear to me the Son who was, His spirit, was in the body prepared for Him. While His spirit is not human it's also not the Spirit of the first and Last. If Jesus has a human spirit and human body what part of Him was God? And what part of the Son who was descended from above?

Brother, what does this even mean? God's spirit is not human but it's also not the Spirit of the first and last, you say? You indicated that God's Being, the Father, was in Jesus as the Father. But now you're saying that it is God's spirit that was in Jesus?

This makes no sense to me. Are you saying the Father was in Jesus or the Spirit was in Jesus? And are you saying that the Holy Spirit is an entirely different entity than the "spirit of the first and last?"

So, the spirit that is in Jesus is also the Father and is the "spirit of the first and last," which is different from the Holy Spirit? This is massively confusing to me!

Saying that the Father and the Spirit are the same entity who existed in Jesus sounds a lot like modalism to me? The Father and the Spirit are both the Divine Person but not the same Trinitarian Person! Saying that a non-human spirit of the "first and the last" was in Jesus is pretty strange, which I don't find in Christian doctrine at all?

Is this some strange form of Arianism? I know the JWs see Jesus as an almost God figure who is actually below Divine as a kind of super-human. But you don't even see Jesus as a true human, in that he does not have a human spirit.

There is only one Spirit. Why would Jesus need to receive His own Spirit from the Father?

Okay, I have not been answering these kinds of questions but will try. I wasn't answering them because they are premised on modalistic concerns, which begin by denying that God can identify His Person in both infinite space and finite space simultaneously.

When treating the Trinity one must categorize them separately as Persons. So Jesus, as a human person, can like all other human beings, receive the Holy Spirit as an anointing, or as a gifting from the transcendent Deity.

Being confined, per revelation, to his finite representation of God, Jesus shows that his Deity, which is transcendent, must have a connection, whether to identify him as God or to operate his supernatural gifts.

Jesus is the image of the invisible God NOT the invisible God.

The passage is indicating that Jesus represents God's own Person in a finite human spirit and body. Being the image of God here is different than merely being created "in the image of God." Jesus *is* the image of God, and not just created "in the image of God."

The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. He is not that Deity.

This is heresy from my point of view. I don't mean to call you names--this is just the name for your beliefs from a doctrinally orthodox pov. All of the creeds, countering Arianism, required people to accept that Jesus was Deity. Clearly, you don't believe that.

The Spirit of the Father is living in Him without limit. He is not a expression or attribute of God He is ALL that the Father is and they are ONE.

Yes, but you are meaning something other than the unity expressed in the Christian Creeds. You have some kind of economic unity, rather than a substantial unity.

The Creeds speak of a shared Divine substance--not perfect alignment of all human attributes with Deity. What you have is a perfect, sinless man who is not God.

And that is not Christian faith of the orthodox kind. It is more like Arianism perhaps, which was at one time a kind of Christianity. But it was ultimately denounced as heterodox.

The rest of your arguments and questions are of the same nature as above, and it would be redundant to continue in the same vein. I respect your sincere expression of faith but cannot consider them doctrinally orthodox. I know they make sense to you. But in light of Christian doctrine, they appear as all over the place.

 

[Randy]

Brother, what does this even mean? God's spirit is not human but it's also not the Spirit of the first and last, you say? You indicated that God's Being, the Father, was in Jesus as the Father. But now you're saying that it is God's spirit that was in Jesus?

Jesus spirit, not the Fathers, is not a human spirit nor is it deity. He is a child of the Father. The first begotten. The spirit of the first and last is the Fathers Spirit and it is deity. The Father is unbegotten.

This makes no sense to me. Are you saying the Father was in Jesus or the Spirit was in Jesus? And are you saying that the Holy Spirit is an entirely different entity than the "spirit of the first and last?"

There is only one true Deity and that is the Father. The Fathers Deity is living in Jesus. As the first begotten of the Father Jesus has His own spirit. The first and the last is the Father. The only true unbegotten God.

So, the spirit that is in Jesus is also the Father and is the "spirit of the first and last," which is different from the Holy Spirit? This is massively confusing to me!

You do seem confused. I'm not. No the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the First and last are the one and same Spirit of our Heavenly Father. The Father is living in Jesus.

Saying that the Father and the Spirit are the same entity who existed in Jesus sounds a lot like modalism to me? The Father and the Spirit are both the Divine Person but not the same Trinitarian Person! Saying that a non-human spirit of the "first and the last" was in Jesus is pretty strange, which I don't find in Christian doctrine at all?

I read one God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ. I see the person of the Father in regard to the Holy Spirit and in certain contexts the person of the Son. As that Spirit the Father sends in Jesus's name. What I don't see is a 3rd distinct person.

On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Is this some strange form of Arianism? I know the JWs see Jesus as an almost God figure who is actually below Divine as a kind of super-human. But you don't even see Jesus as a true human, in that he does not have a human spirit.

Its NT.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Only in the context of the Fathers nature in the Son is Jesus God. Col 1:19

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Okay, I have not been answering these kinds of questions but will try. I wasn't answering them because they are premised on modalistic concerns, which begin by denying that God can identify His Person in both infinite space and finite space simultaneously.

When treating the Trinity one must categorize them separately as Persons. So Jesus, as a human person, can like all other human beings, receive the Holy Spirit as an anointing, or as a gifting from the transcendent Deity.

I asked if Jesus had a newly formed human spirit,(ridiculous), and a human body what part of Him was God?
I also asked what part of Jesus descended from above if not His own spirit.

The Father poured out His Spirit in these last days In Jesus name.
Jesus would not need not receive His own spirit from the Father and His spirit is not Deity anyway.
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

Being confined, per revelation, to his finite representation of God, Jesus shows that his Deity, which is transcendent, must have a connection, whether to identify him as God or to operate his supernatural gifts.

The Fathers works Jesus performed testify that the Father is in Him and they are one.

The passage is indicating that Jesus represents God's own Person in a finite human spirit and body. Being the image of God here is different than merely being created "in the image of God." Jesus *is* the image of God, and not just created "in the image of God."

Jesus is ALL that the Father is because ALL the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. His spirit is the spirit of the first begotten. He is a child of the Father. His God and are God His Father and our Father.

This is heresy from my point of view. I don't mean to call you names--this is just the name for your beliefs from a doctrinally orthodox pov. All of the creeds, countering Arianism, required people to accept that Jesus was Deity. Clearly, you don't believe that.

That doesn't make your case

Yes, but you are meaning something other than the unity expressed in the Christian Creeds. You have some kind of economic unity, rather than a substantial unity.

The Creeds speak of a shared Divine substance--not perfect alignment of all human attributes with Deity. What you have is a perfect, sinless man who is not God.

Jesus shares the "Fathers" Deity without limit. But it is not His Deity but the Fathers.

And that is not Christian faith of the orthodox kind. It is more like Arianism perhaps, which was at one time a kind of Christianity. But it was ultimately denounced as heterodox.

I have the Spirit of Christ in me and therefore I am in the faith Paul spoke of.
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?
I hold to this as it was in the beginning.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
I hold to this about the Son
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being,sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

The rest of your arguments and questions are of the same nature as above, and it would be redundant to continue in the same vein. I respect your sincere expression of faith but cannot consider them doctrinally orthodox. I know they make sense to you. But in light of Christian doctrine, they appear as all over the place.

I prefer truth.

 

[RandyK]

Jesus spirit, not the Fathers, is not a human spirit nor is it deity. He is a child of the Father. The first begotten. The spirit of the first and last is the Fathers Spirit and it is deity. The Father is unbegotten.

There is only one true Deity and that is the Father. The Fathers Deity is living in Jesus. As the first begotten of the Father Jesus has His own spirit. The first and the last is the Father. The only true unbegotten God.

You do seem confused. I'm not. No the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the First and last are the one and same Spirit of our Heavenly Father. The Father is living in Jesus.

Let me be clear. I'm not confused about what *I believe.* I'm confused about what *you believe,* because you claim your belief comes from the Scriptures, and although you quote the Scriptures, it does not conform to the Scriptures in the way that Christians conventionally see them.

Your denial that Jesus had a human spirit is *not* in the Scriptures. Rather, the Scriptures assume that *all men,* including Jesus, are defined as having a human spirit placed in a human body, making them a living soul.

Eccl 3.21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

I read one God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ. I see the person of the Father in regard to the Holy Spirit and in certain contexts the person of the Son. As that Spirit the Father sends in Jesus's name. What I don't see is a 3rd distinct person.

On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Its NT.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Only in the context of the Fathers nature in the Son is Jesus God. Col 1:19

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

As I've said previously, we agree that Jesus is God, and that the Father and the Spirit of God operate in Jesus. Where we disagree is on the sense that where the Persons of the Godhead are defined as distinct Persons they are not confused in Scriptures as if they are the "same Person." Unity of substance between them is not the same thing as obliterating the distinction of their Persons, as indicated in Scriptures.

You obviously recognize the distinction of Persons between the Father and the Son by admitting that the Father is "in the Son." You obviously recognize the distinction of Persons between the Son and the Spirit by admitting that the Spirit is "in the Son." But you confuse the Father and the Spirit by indicating that their unity obliterates them as distinct *Persons.*

Clearly, the Scriptures do *not* say that the Spirit *is* the Father, but rather, that the Spirit is *of* the Father. That is, the Father sends the Spirit, and as such, indicates that there is a distinction of Persons between the Father and the Spirit.

I asked if Jesus had a newly formed human spirit,(ridiculous), and a human body what part of Him was God?
I also asked what part of Jesus descended from above if not His own spirit.

I've answered this by claiming that the finite human spirit of Jesus was identified as an expression of God's Word, and by claiming that what God's Word expressed in Jesus was His own Divine Person. I here distinguish between the Person of Deity in all 3 Persons and the Persons of the Trinity itself.

There is one Divine Person uniting all 3 Persons in a single Divine Substance. And yet, there are 3 representations of Deity in 3 distinct Persons. The Word of God is able to do this by presenting the infinite Deity in finite representations.

The Father poured out His Spirit in these last days In Jesus name.
Jesus would not need not receive His own spirit from the Father and His spirit is not Deity anyway.
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.


The Fathers works Jesus performed testify that the Father is in Him and they are one.

The Father being "in Jesus" does indeed render the Father and the Son "one." But it neither confuses the Father with the Son as distinct Persons, nor confuses the Father and the Spirit, who are also distinct Persons. One God in unified substance and yet presenting a finite substance in Jesus that is distinct from its origin in eternity and in infinite preexistence.

Jesus is ALL that the Father is because ALL the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. His spirit is the spirit of the first begotten. He is a child of the Father. His God and are God His Father and our Father.

That doesn't make your case

Jesus shares the "Fathers" Deity without limit. But it is not His Deity but the Fathers.

I have the Spirit of Christ in me and therefore I am in the faith Paul spoke of.
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?
I hold to this as it was in the beginning.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
I hold to this about the Son
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being,sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.


I prefer truth.

Your "truth" is not the orthodox truth of historic Christianity, as ironed out by the early Church Fathers. You are presenting modalism and a kind of Arianism, which are in fact heresies. You're out on a limb--I hope you get it together because these things are complex, and perhaps for you a matter of prayer as it was for me decades ago.

 

[Randy]

Let me be clear. I'm not confused about what *I believe.* I'm confused about what *you believe,* because you claim your belief comes from the Scriptures, and although you quote the Scriptures, it does not conform to the Scriptures in the way that Christians conventionally see them.

Your denial that Jesus had a human spirit is *not* in the Scriptures. Rather, the Scriptures assume that *all men,* including Jesus, are defined as having a human spirit placed in a human body, making them a living soul.

All men don't come down from heaven. AGAIN what part of Jesus came down from heaven if not His own Spirit?
And it is His spirit, "Father into your hand I commit My spirit"
Jesus -"The flesh counts for nothing. The spirit is life"

Eccl 3.21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

The one who comes from above is the one we are discussing.

As I've said previously, we agree that Jesus is God, and that the Father and the Spirit of God operate in Jesus. Where we disagree is on the sense that where the Persons of the Godhead are defined as distinct Persons they are not confused in Scriptures as if they are the "same Person." Unity of substance between them is not the same thing as obliterating the distinction of their Persons, as indicated in Scriptures.

It's not Father and Spirit operating in Jesus. Didn't you read "Its the FATHER living in me doing His work" The Father is Spirit. It's HIS Deity. You state True God "From"true God but what made you thing the source Deity, the Father, would change. It is and remains the Deity of the only true God the Father.
Jesus is begotten.

John 1:18 Greek Text Analysis

Do you believe He has always been the Son? If He wasn't the Fathers Son in the beginning then whose Son was He?
How do you state "From" another as in a Son with no starting point to qualify the word "From"?

You obviously recognize the distinction of Persons between the Father and the Son by admitting that the Father is "in the Son." You obviously recognize the distinction of Persons between the Son and the Spirit by admitting that the Spirit is "in the Son." But you confuse the Father and the Spirit by indicating that their unity obliterates them as distinct *Persons.*

Jesus is the first begotten of the Father. A person, A child of the Father. Not the Father
The God and Father of Jesus is just that His God and Father.
There is no 3rd distinct person from the Father and Son.
It's one GOD the Father and one LORD Jesus Christ.
In regard to the Spirit you should see the person of the Father. Jesus-Those who listen and learn from the FATHER come to me. The Fathers promise -In the last days I will pour out "MY" Spirit. The Father sends the Spirit in Jesus name. So that same Spirit in a believer is in the persona of the Son. In that context in regard to the Spirit you should see the person of the Son. What you will never see is the Spirit who conveys only what He hears, speaking or acting as a 3rd distinct person with a independent mind.
Paul didn't forget about the Spirit. He wrote truthfully.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
The host of heaven didn't fail to honor the Spirit. They honored God and His Christ
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”

Clearly, the Scriptures do *not* say that the Spirit *is* the Father, but rather, that the Spirit is *of* the Father. That is, the Father sends the Spirit, and as such, indicates that there is a distinction of Persons between the Father and the Spirit.

The Spirit of the one who sent Him was upon Him. We know from Jesus's testimony that the Father sent Him.
The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,
2 to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor

I've answered this by claiming that the finite human spirit of Jesus was identified as an expression of God's Word, and by claiming that what God's Word expressed in Jesus was His own Divine Person. I here distinguish between the Person of Deity in all 3 Persons and the Persons of the Trinity itself.

I didn't read the finite human spirit was identified as an expression of God Word. What's your source?

There is one Divine Person uniting all 3 Persons in a single Divine Substance. And yet, there are 3 representations of Deity in 3 distinct Persons. The Word of God is able to do this by presenting the infinite Deity in finite representations.

The Father is in the Son and they are one. The Fathers own Spirit would have the Fathers nature.

The Father being "in Jesus" does indeed render the Father and the Son "one." But it neither confuses the Father with the Son as distinct Persons, nor confuses the Father and the Spirit, who are also distinct Persons. One God in unified substance and yet presenting a finite substance in Jesus that is distinct from its origin in eternity and in infinite preexistence.

Yes but it's the Fathers Deity in Jesus not His own. This is what the Spirit made known to me in regard to Col 1:19. "From the will of another"

Your "truth" is not the orthodox truth of historic Christianity, as ironed out by the early Church Fathers. You are presenting modalism and a kind of Arianism, which are in fact heresies. You're out on a limb--I hope you get it together because these things are complex, and perhaps for you a matter of prayer as it was for me decades ago.

It's from the beginning. The Father is my God and Jesus is my Lord. In Jesus My Lord dwells all the fullness of God My Father and Jesus is ALL that the Father is. GOD.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
And this is eternal life: that men can know you, the only true God, and that men can know Jesus Christ, the One you sent

I think we will have to agree to disagree.