John 1:1 & 2

[Mysteryman]

"logos" means "logos", it is as simple as that. That which God has revealed or manifested, becomes the "logos" of God.

"In the beginning" was the "Word" (logos). Yet, God does not have a beginning, but His "logos" does !

How do you explain: "And the Word [logos] became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. (John (RSV) 1)

Hi

I am working my way towards this verse. A foundation must be established first. The very first thing people should understand,is this word "logos" and what it means. Way too many people super impose their beiefs upon scripture. Instead of allowing the scriptures to explain to us that which God is saying, instead of what man thinks it is saying.

 

[dadof10]

]
Its your choice to believe what you want, but when you make public accusations, as you did, then you have a moral obligation to provide at least some small amount of evidence. You did not provide any evidence at all, just simply made a public accusation. By your reasoning, if I thought you are a child molester, do I have the right to publish that accusation all over the internet? Can I make other public accusation against you based upon my own suspicions? (This is not an accusaton--- I have no way of knowing you.) Could I claim that I have the rights to my thoughts and then not apologize for my public statements? Without evidence it would be nothing more then malicious gossip, and rumor bearing to make such an accusation public. You still owe me an apology.

This is really good. Could you send me the link to the website you copied it from?

 

[dadof10]

How do you explain: "And the Word [logos] became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. (John (RSV) 1)

Hi

I am working my way towards this verse. A foundation must be established first. The very first thing people should understand,is this word "logos" and what it means. Way too many people super impose their beiefs upon scripture. Instead of allowing the scriptures to explain to us that which God is saying, instead of what man thinks it is saying.

Please. I asked you a simple question, "Do you think the word 'Word" in verse 1 refers to Jesus?" Your response was:

"logos" means "logos", it is as simple as that. That which God has revealed or manifested, becomes the "logos" of God.

"In the beginning" was the "Word" (logos). Yet, God does not have a beginning, but His "logos" does !

It sounds like you are denying it, then when confronted with verse 14, you start back-peddling. If I asked you if you thought God was the Creator, would you say "God means God, it's as simple as that. I'm working my way toward that concept"?

Why is it so hard for you to answer a simple question?

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote mondar: "So then, the logos cannot be a force, or some impersonal energy, but it is a person."


Hi M.

Now you have this word "logos" being a person. Yet you provide nothing to support this view. I have studied the scriptures for many years, and as of yet have not found any evidence that this word "logos" is a person.

Extra biblical information is always false information.

The word "logos" carries with it, speaking forth with power and authority.

Luke 4:36 - "And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word (logos) is this ! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirit, and they come out"

Matt. 8:8 - "speak the word (logos) only, and my servant shall be healed"

Matt. 8:16 - "he cast out the spirits with his word (logos)

Luke 11:28 - "blessed are they that hear the word (logos)"

The word "logos" is speech - matter - reason

The word "logos" has a beginning, and this is why John 1:1 reads - "In the beginning was the Word (logos)

A command must be made by God, to that which is either spoken , or manifested into existence. "God created the heaven and the earth" - In the beginning !

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi :

The translators were never to add their interpretation in doing a translation. Well, most will ignore the fact that the translators did indeed put their own interpretation in the their translations.

KJV - Matt. 1:23 - "which being interpreted is " -- G - W - U. But it should have been said - G - W - H . (Him)

We learn this by checking out the Emmanuel of the OT.

Your inference of Christ's Name "Immanuel" really meaning 'God with Him' is baloney. It shows just how far away from Christ those false doctrinists have led you.

1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
KJV

Col 2:9
For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
KJV

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of PeaceKJV

Hi Veteran

Please calm down and slow down. If you do not understand the word "logos" , then you will go off like this on a tangent, and expect that your thoughts not to be grounded ?

Emmanuel means - God with him, not God with us. Have you studied the Emmanuel of the OT ? I have and would be glad to help you understand, that Emmanuel means God with him.

Yes, a son was promised by His "logos" word. Let me ask you, what is in the meaning of a name ? God changed Jacob's name to Israel. Isaiah 9:6 says - "name"

Jesus Christ said that he came in his Father's name.

 

[Mysteryman]

Re: John 1:6 - 9

In verses 6 - 9 we read that John was not that Light, but he came to bear witness of the Light. Again here, the word "Light" is talking about God, who is Spirit. So the word "Light" also means - Spirit of God or Spirit from God.

In verse 7 we read, that "through" him might we believe. Through the Spirit from God. In verse 8 again this verse is telling us that John was not that Light, but that he was sent to bear witness of the Spirit from God - That Light.

In verse 9 we notice again, that which pertains to the Light = spirit, which lighteth every man that comes into the world. Every man,not just one man.

All of mankind is born of man, and has the spirit of man within them. But Jesus the Christ was born of his Father, who was God. Jesus didn't have an earthly father, for His Father is heavenly, and not of this earth.

Jesus Christ had the Spirit of/from God . For he was the only begotten Son of God. This is what makes Jesus the Christ divine from a spiritual point of understanding. Through Christ we learn and understaind the Father who sent him. This is how the Father is revealed unto us and through His Son we believe - verse 7.

This will be continued with the remaining verses in this chapter.

 

[stovebolts]

True, God is eternal , having no beginning and no ending. Yet, His Word - "logos" has a beginning.

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word (logos) "

That doesn't address my question as it pertains to Jesus. Do you believe that Jesus was God manifest on earth, or do you believe that Jesus has a beginning?

A command must be made by God, to that which is either spoken , or manifested into existence. "God created the heaven and the earth" - In the beginning !

Hi Hervey, I just wanted to clarify something here. Let's start with dictionary.com ok because I don't think your using the word Manifested in the correct manner; which leads me to believe you may have a misunderstanding on the word manifested. Now then, I'm not a grammer expert, so if I'm wrong in my grammer, please show me.

Manifested:
–adjective
1. readily perceived by the eye or the understanding; evident; obvious; apparent; plain: a manifest error.
2. Psychoanalysis . of or pertaining to conscious feelings, ideas, and impulses that contain repressed psychic material: the manifest content of a dream as opposed to the latent content that it conceals.
–verb (used with object)
3. to make clear or evident to the eye or the understanding; show plainly: He manifested his approval with a hearty laugh.
4. to prove; put beyond doubt or question: The evidence manifests the guilt of the defendant.
5. to record in a ship's manifest.

Now then, lets look at the word
Existance:
–noun
1. the state or fact of existing; being.
2. continuance in being or life; life: a struggle for existence.
3. mode of existing: They were working for a better existence.
4. all that exists: Existence shows a universal order.
5. something that exists; entity; being.

So we see that existance is a noun, which means we use and Adjective to describe a noun, thus, your sentance manifested into existence doesn't make sense.


Using the definition provided, one could say that heaven and earth were a manifestation through God's spoken word, which agrees with Genesis 1, "God said" because the world around us clearly shows it to be true, and I don't see an "OR" anywhere in Genesis 1 when it speaks of God creating. Basically, God said it, and it was so. No or's about it.

Scripture is clear that God created all things by speaking them into existance and it doesn't take much reasoning to link what "God said", as God's word.

John opens up his theological gospel with the intent to show that Jesus, is God's word as further attested in John 6:63 and also John 6:58.

Do you believe that Jesus is God's word? and who is the "He" in vs. 10 IYO?

Paul echo's this theological thought in Colossians.

 

[Mysteryman]

True, God is eternal , having no beginning and no ending. Yet, His Word - "logos" has a beginning.

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word (logos) "

That doesn't address my question as it pertains to Jesus. Do you believe that Jesus was God manifest on earth, or do you believe that Jesus has a beginning?

A command must be made by God, to that which is either spoken , or manifested into existence. "God created the heaven and the earth" - In the beginning !

Hi Hervey, I just wanted to clarify something here. Let's start with dictionary.com ok because I don't think your using the word Manifested in the correct manner; which leads me to believe you may have a misunderstanding on the word manifested. Now then, I'm not a grammer expert, so if I'm wrong in my grammer, please show me.

Manifested:
–adjective
1. readily perceived by the eye or the understanding; evident; obvious; apparent; plain: a manifest error.
2. Psychoanalysis . of or pertaining to conscious feelings, ideas, and impulses that contain repressed psychic material: the manifest content of a dream as opposed to the latent content that it conceals.
–verb (used with object)
3. to make clear or evident to the eye or the understanding; show plainly: He manifested his approval with a hearty laugh.
4. to prove; put beyond doubt or question: The evidence manifests the guilt of the defendant.
5. to record in a ship's manifest.

Now then, lets look at the word
Existance:
–noun
1. the state or fact of existing; being.
2. continuance in being or life; life: a struggle for existence.
3. mode of existing: They were working for a better existence.
4. all that exists: Existence shows a universal order.
5. something that exists; entity; being.

So we see that existance is a noun, which means we use and Adjective to describe a noun, thus, your sentance manifested into existence doesn't make sense.


Using the definition provided, one could say that heaven and earth were a manifestation through God's spoken word, which agrees with Genesis 1, "God said" because the world around us clearly shows it to be true, and I don't see an "OR" anywhere in Genesis 1 when it speaks of God creating. Basically, God said it, and it was so. No or's about it.

Scripture is clear that God created all things by speaking them into existance and it doesn't take much reasoning to link what "God said", as God's word.

John opens up his theological gospel with the intent to show that Jesus, is God's word as further attested in John 6:63 and also John 6:58.

Do you believe that Jesus is God's word? and who is the "He" in vs. 10 IYO?

Paul echo's this theological thought in Colossians.

Hi Jeff :

I am sorry if you misunderstood the intent of my wording. The word "or" seems to have caused a bit of an unecessary amount of confusion.

The word - Word - is "logos" --

Spoken with authority and power.

The heaven(s) and the earth never existed until the "logos" was spoken into existence.

Maybe you havn't noticed as of yet, but I am working my way through these verses. I just havn't gotten to verse 14 as of yet. Prior to what it says in verse 14, we have the "logos" of God in many verses, pertaining to many understaindings. I quoted a few, and could quote a few more. But for the most part, people who are on line can readily search more verses out for themselvs. Or, if they own their own concordance.

I will be explaining verse 10 shortly, which should be interesting . Especially when the verse starts out by telling us - "He was in the world"

Later !

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Jeff :

I am sorry if you misunderstood the intent of my wording. The word "or" seems to have caused a bit of an unecessary amount of confusion.

ummmm, I disagree that there was an "OR" in the account of creation and the words "manifested into existence" added confusion, yet I see no effort on your part to explain this in a manner which I can understand. Tell ya what, why don't you write the entire sentence in question over while avoiding the word manifested so I can get a better idea what your saying because honestly, it doesn't make any sense to me.

The word - Word - is "logos" --

Spoken with authority and power.

Not only do I understand this, but I agree, and scripture agrees as it pertains to the context of our discussion (Genesis 1, John 1)

The heaven(s) and the earth never existed until the "logos" was spoken into existence.

See, your doing it again... According to scripture (Genesis 1), the heavens and the earth were spoken into existance and that which was spoken, were the very words of God; creator of everything that exists. It's nonsensical to say that the word was spoken into existance. It would be stated rhetorically as, "The Word became manifest through that (–conjunction) which God spoke". In other words, that which God spoke, were the very words of God and it was through God's word which the very essence of creation depends.

Maybe you havn't noticed as of yet, but I am working my way through these verses. I just havn't gotten to verse 14 as of yet. Prior to what it says in verse 14, we have the "logos" of God in many verses, pertaining to many understaindings. I quoted a few, and could quote a few more. But for the most part, people who are on line can readily search more verses out for themselvs. Or, if they own their own concordance.

I've noticed, but any good teacher knows that you have to teach at a gradient to meet each student where they are at. Well, I'm making it clear that your confusing me, so please step back and explain this material in a manner that I can understand what you're saying clearly without misunderstandings.
The second thing a good teacher knows, is that the material builds upon itself, so if there is a misunderstanding early on, the student won't be able to grasp the material to come.

Now then, you've taken on the role as teacher. So please, teach responsibly.

I will be explaining verse 10 shortly, which should be interesting . Especially when the verse starts out by telling us - "He was in the world"

Later !

 

[Mysteryman]

True, God is eternal , having no beginning and no ending. Yet, His Word - "logos" has a beginning.

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word (logos) "

That doesn't address my question as it pertains to Jesus. Do you believe that Jesus was God manifest on earth, or do you believe that Jesus has a beginning?

A command must be made by God, to that which is either spoken , or manifested into existence. "God created the heaven and the earth" - In the beginning !

Hi Hervey, I just wanted to clarify something here. Let's start with dictionary.com ok because I don't think your using the word Manifested in the correct manner; which leads me to believe you may have a misunderstanding on the word manifested. Now then, I'm not a grammer expert, so if I'm wrong in my grammer, please show me.

Manifested:
–adjective
1. readily perceived by the eye or the understanding; evident; obvious; apparent; plain: a manifest error.
2. Psychoanalysis . of or pertaining to conscious feelings, ideas, and impulses that contain repressed psychic material: the manifest content of a dream as opposed to the latent content that it conceals.
–verb (used with object)
3. to make clear or evident to the eye or the understanding; show plainly: He manifested his approval with a hearty laugh.
4. to prove; put beyond doubt or question: The evidence manifests the guilt of the defendant.
5. to record in a ship's manifest.

Now then, lets look at the word
Existance:
–noun
1. the state or fact of existing; being.
2. continuance in being or life; life: a struggle for existence.
3. mode of existing: They were working for a better existence.
4. all that exists: Existence shows a universal order.
5. something that exists; entity; being.

So we see that existance is a noun, which means we use and Adjective to describe a noun, thus, your sentance manifested into existence doesn't make sense.


Using the definition provided, one could say that heaven and earth were a manifestation through God's spoken word, which agrees with Genesis 1, "God said" because the world around us clearly shows it to be true, and I don't see an "OR" anywhere in Genesis 1 when it speaks of God creating. Basically, God said it, and it was so. No or's about it.

Scripture is clear that God created all things by speaking them into existance and it doesn't take much reasoning to link what "God said", as God's word.

John opens up his theological gospel with the intent to show that Jesus, is God's word as further attested in John 6:63 and also John 6:58.

Do you believe that Jesus is God's word? and who is the "He" in vs. 10 IYO?

Paul echo's this theological thought in Colossians.

Hi Jeff:

"manifest" - made evident

Titus 1:3 - "manifested his word"

I John 1:2 - 3 - "that which we have seen"

Ephesians 5:13 - "But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light" < Gen. 1:4

I John 3:8 - "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil"

 

[Mysteryman]

Question from Jeff: "and who is the "He" in vs. 10 IYO?"


Hi Jeff:

The reason people imply another's opinion, is to put themselves on a level playing field. Which means, that you or I have a right to an opinion, but neither of us can be said to have the truth. That is , because the truth is not anyone's opinion (estimation).

Neither of us has a right to our opinions. We only have the right to be correct or wrong in our beliefs.

I will be dealing with verse 10 shortly.

Happy Father's day

 

[Free]

"logos" means "logos", it is as simple as that. That which God has revealed or manifested, becomes the "logos" of God.

"In the beginning" was the "Word" (logos). Yet, God does not have a beginning, but His "logos" does !

How do you explain: "And the Word [logos] became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. (John (RSV) 1)

Hi

I am working my way towards this verse. A foundation must be established first. The very first thing people should understand,is this word "logos" and what it means. Way too many people super impose their beiefs upon scripture. Instead of allowing the scriptures to explain to us that which God is saying, instead of what man thinks it is saying.

I really cannot figure out what the point of this thread is but let us see what Scripture says regarding your foundation:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"--It is very important to note that "was" is the Greek en, and denotes absolute existence, that is, continuous existence in the past. Contrast this with verse 14--"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"--where "became" is the Greek egeneto and speaks to a point in time, a coming into existence.

In other words, the logos has always been and was in existence already "In the beginning."

It is all well to try and understand what logos means but part of that meaning is the context. You cannot say you understand the logos if you ignore that he is as eternal as God. And, of course, the context includes verse 3--"All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made"--which again shows that the logos existed in eternity past.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Jeff:

"manifest" - made evident

Titus 1:3 - "manifested his word"

I John 1:2 - 3 - "that which we have seen"

Ephesians 5:13 - "But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light" < Gen. 1:4

I John 3:8 - "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil"

Ok, so... your sentence reads,

A command must be made by God, to that which is either spoken , or made evident into existence. "God created the heaven and the earth" - In the beginning !

so, stuff was either spoken, or made evident into existence? How is something "made evident into existence" :gah And what verses in Genesis 1 would you like to support that assertion?

Sure you don't just want to re-write that whole sentence, cause it still aint making much sense to me. Listen, I know sometimes we don't always use the words we want to, or our words don't come out the way we thought. I'm not putting you down, I just want to understand what your saying in a clear way, that I can understand.

 

[stovebolts]

Question from Jeff: "and who is the "He" in vs. 10 IYO?"


Hi Jeff:

The reason people imply another's opinion, is to put themselves on a level playing field. Which means, that you or I have a right to an opinion, but neither of us can be said to have the truth. That is , because the truth is not anyone's opinion (estimation).

Neither of us has a right to our opinions. We only have the right to be correct or wrong in our beliefs.

I will be dealing with verse 10 shortly.

Happy Father's day

Actually, I'm taking the stance that your slightly in error while leaving the door open to possibly learn something from you, which is why I asked your opinion. By asking your opinion, it helps me to understand why you view the scriptures with the lens you view them through.

Happy Fathers day to you too! Catch ya Monday.

 

[Mysteryman]

"logos" means "logos", it is as simple as that. That which God has revealed or manifested, becomes the "logos" of God.

"In the beginning" was the "Word" (logos). Yet, God does not have a beginning, but His "logos" does !

How do you explain: "And the Word [logos] became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. (John (RSV) 1)

Hi

I am working my way towards this verse. A foundation must be established first. The very first thing people should understand,is this word "logos" and what it means. Way too many people super impose their beiefs upon scripture. Instead of allowing the scriptures to explain to us that which God is saying, instead of what man thinks it is saying.

I really cannot figure out what the point of this thread is but let us see what Scripture says regarding your foundation:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"--It is very important to note that "was" is the Greek en, and denotes absolute existence, that is, continuous existence in the past. Contrast this with verse 14--"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"--where "became" is the Greek egeneto and speaks to a point in time, a coming into existence.

In other words, the logos has always been and was in existence already "In the beginning."

It is all well to try and understand what logos means but part of that meaning is the context. You cannot say you understand the logos if you ignore that he is as eternal as God. And, of course, the context includes verse 3--"All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made"--which again shows that the logos existed in eternity past.[/quote]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Free:

God always existed , because God always was , and had no beginning and no ending. But the "logos" did not always exist.

What I see you suggesting, is that you are trying to impose your thoughts into this one word "logos". The very beginning of John 1:1 states clearly - "In the beginning was the Word". God not having a beginning clearly puts this word - Word ( logos ) at a beginning point in time. The next part of the verse states clearly also - "and the Word was with God". Part one clearly states that the Word (logos) was in the beginning. So the Word with God, was also in the beginning. As is the same with the last part of this verse - "and the Word was God". The word was God, when ? Nothing has changed ! The Word (logos) was God in the beginning.

Once the "logos" is spoken, then and only then is that which was spoken manifested. It didn't exist prior to the "logos", the spoken Word.

When we look back at the book of Genesis. We see God creating and making and forming. In Genesis 1:3 it states -- "God said" -- As soon as "God said", we now have the spoken Word (logos), and not until then. We know "light" existed prior to God saying "let there be light", because God is all light. We also notice that God didn't create light, because light already existed in God, or to say, in the make up of God.

But here on this earth, this light didn't exist here on this earth. This light spoke of here in Gen. 1:3 is spiritual light, not literal light. Again, spiritual light existed , but not here upon this earth prior to God saying - "let there be light. Light is not "logos". "Logos" is the spoken word of God. Another way of looking at it, is -- Light is light and God is God and "logos" is "logos". God is light and God spoke his light into manifestation. But the light God spoke into manifestation can not be all of the light of God. God's light is a consuming light. The more God releases his light the more it consumes. In this case, in Gen. 1:3 the amount of light God releases here is the amount that seperates light from darkness. And God calls this light , Day, and God calls the darkness, Night. The word "Day" here is not our day of 24 hrs. The word "Day" here, is a reflection of God, not man. This amount of light that God calls - Day, is a reflection of many understandings. It seperates , it distinguishes, and is a reflection of the time frame that God uses. One day with the Lord is as a thousand years of man, and a thousand years as one day with the Lord. When God told Adam, that - "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die". This "day" that God is talking about here, is his "logos". His spoken Word in Gen. 1:3. Prior to Gen. 1:3 this light did not exist. Hence, this thousand years did not exist. Hence this "day" did not exist. Adam died - "in that day", which means during that 1,000 years, for he lived 930 years and died, which means within God's Day. All of this occured by God speaking (logos) - "let there be light". God (light) always was, but his "logos" has a beginning.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Free : ""In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"--It is very important to note that "was" is the Greek en, and denotes absolute existence, that is, continuous existence in the past"


Hi Free :

Just in case my explanation above is not clear to you. I wanted to give you an extended explanation here. The word "was" indicates existence, and I agree. However, the word "was" does not indicate - "continuous existence in the past". This is what I mean, when I say that people super impose their belifs upon scripture.

The "logos" did not exist in the past. It only existed upon the spoken word, as in Gen. 1:3 - And God said "Let there be light", and there was light. Here is the word "was" in the verse. There was light , only came about by God speaking it into manifestation. The word "logos" is the spoken word.

This paticular light never existed before. The purpose for this light , never existed before. Light existed, because God is all light.

In verse 4 God tells us - "And God saw the light and it was good". What was good ? The answer is simple. The purpose for this light was good. This light , seperates, distinguishes, and is a spiritual reflection of the time span of God upon this earth. Hence, each time we read - "and the evening and the morning were the first day" , means a thousand years have passed. This allows the reader, to understand the time in which each day of God is used, to make or create or form, those things that will replenish the earth. Thus , six days represents , 6000 years. And on the seventh day, God rested from his work of the things that he made and created. So, for 1,000 years, God rested on the seventh day. So on the eighth day , God formed the man from the dust of the earth, after he caused it to rain. Man died in that day, during that 1000 years, and Adam died at 930 years of age.

 

[stovebolts]

Hervey,
Thank you for expounding your thoughts to Free. I believe your point is all coming together for me. Lets see if I have this right.

Your saying>
1. God is eternal without end or beginning.
2. Before God spoke, the word was not in existance, thus when God spoke, the word began.

Is this about right? I think this is what I hear you saying.

If this is what you are suggesting, I would ask that you rethink it in this manner.

Speech is a manifestation of what is already in us, already a part of us. Speech is one of may forms of communication. Jesus said that it is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, it is what comes out of a man, and I don't think he was talking about bodily fluids because Jesus was talking in part about how we communicate to the world around us and again, speech is one of many forms of communication.

Look at any form of communication like this, including speech. It consists of cause, distance and effect with intention and attention causing duplication.

God had a cause: to create the heavens and the earth.
There was distance between God and his cause: It didn't exist.
Effect: God had a view of what he wanted changed.
Intention: He had the desire to do so. You have to want something.
Attention: The cosmos responded.
His will was duplicated: Heaven and earth were created, just the way he intended.

In other words, our words represent who we are because they come from us and they exist with us because they are us and they represent us well before they were / are manifested to the world around us. You cannot seperate my words from me, because they are a part of me and express a multitude of expressions, personalities and emotions. Simply put, my words reveal who I am and again as Jesus states the he only says and does what His father tells him, because He and the Father are one.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"--

Now then, I have and am studing Judiasim and I have even poked around with the Kabbalah and nowhere is the idea that man was made on the 8th day and nowhere is the idea that creation took 6000 years in the manner which you have described so I'm left asking, "Where are you getting your material"?

I would appreciate it is you would tell us your sources.

Thank you.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hervey,
Thank you for expounding your thoughts to Free. I believe your point is all coming together for me. Lets see if I have this right.

Your saying>
1. God is eternal without end or beginning.
2. Before God spoke, the word was not in existance, thus when God spoke, the word began.

Is this about right? I think this is what I hear you saying.

If this is what you are suggesting, I would ask that you rethink it in this manner.

Speech is a manifestation of what is already in us, already a part of us. Speech is one of may forms of communication. Jesus said that it is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, it is what comes out of a man, and I don't think he was talking about bodily fluids because Jesus was talking in part about how we communicate to the world around us and again, speech is one of many forms of communication.

Look at any form of communication like this, including speech. It consists of cause, distance and effect with intention and attention causing duplication.

God had a cause: to create the heavens and the earth.
There was distance between God and his cause: It didn't exist.
Effect: God created the heaven and the earth.
Intention: He had the desire to do so. You have to want something.
Attention: The cosmos responded.
His will was duplicated: Heaven and earth were created, just the way he intended.

In other words, our words represent who we are because they come from us and they exist with us because they are us and they represent us well before they were / are manifested to the world around us. You cannot seperate my words from me, because they are a part of me and express a multitude of expressions, personalities and emotions. Simply put, my words reveal who I am and again as Jesus states the he only says and does what His father tells him, because He and the Father are one.

Now then, I have and am studing Judiasim and I have even poked around with the Kabbalah and nowhere is the idea that man was made on the 8th day and nowhere is the idea that creation took 6000 years in the manner which you have described so I'm left asking, "Where are you getting your material"?

I would appreciate it is you would tell us your sources.

Thank you.

Hi Jeff:

Wow, is it Monday already ? I have come to realize that the older I seem to get, the quicker time eludes me. :rolling

I believe you are starting to grasp the reality of what I am saying, yes. However, I still see some struggles that you are having with the understanding. I will attempt to help clear this up for you.

Words spoken can have authority, or they might not have any authority at all. I can tell you to believe everything I am telling you within this thread. However, I do not have the authority to tell you such a command as this. I can tell you that 2 + 2 equals 4 and you can agree with me. This is not me commanding you to agree with me, but I am sure that you would.

The "logos" of God not only has authority, but all authority. This is the power of God. The Word tells us , that all power is of God. Hence, If I were to tell you that God created the heaven and the earth. The authority given me by God, would only be as good as God himself backing up those words with his authority. The same holds true when someone baptizes or prays or casts out devil spirits in the name of Jesus Christ. My prayers or baptizing or casting out devil spirits, is only as authoritive as God backing up those things according to his own will. I could pray in the name of Jesus Christ that you become healed of a sickness. But I have no authority to do so, unless God himself releases that authority upon me to do so. Thus God does the healing, and I am but his servant to carry out his will.

The same with a Prophet of God. If he is speaking for God, he must adhere to the very words of God and not add to them nor take away from them. The Prophet of God is not speaking for himself or of himself. He is speaking for God, who is the one with all authority to bring to pass the words of the Prophet.

The same can be said of Joseph in the OT. He was made the right hand man of authority of Pharoah. He spoke for Pharoah, so his authority came from two sources. The first source was Pharoah himself, after he revealed the dreams of Pharoah. Once Pharoah believed the words of Joseph and that they had true meaning and authority of truth. He gave Joseph the power over his kingdom to bring to pass the things that Joseph spoke about from the revealing of the dream of Pharaoh. The greater authority of Joseph came from God. Because without God and the revealings from God, Joseph would not have any authority whatsoever. The dreams of Pharaoh and the revealing of the dreams are all tied together with God himself. God brought all this to pass by way of a servant of God, and this servant was Joseph.

The same holds true with Jesus Christ, who came to do the will of the Father. Jesus and the Father being one, is speaking of purpose. Jesus clearly said, that I did not come to do my will, but the will of my Father who sent me. The Father sent the son. A son was promised by the Prophet Isaiah. Isaiah spoke for God , as a Prophet of God. God gave his only begotten Son. God didn't give himself, but he did give "of" himself.

This is the beauty of the Word of God. God does not change, and neither does His Word change. It holds true from Genesis thru Revelation.

I don't want to get too ahead of myself, as there are still a few verses to go in this chapter of John.

My sources ? I have only but one source - God.

Bless

 

[Free]

I am working my way towards this verse. A foundation must be established first. The very first thing people should understand,is this word "logos" and what it means. Way too many people super impose their beiefs upon scripture. Instead of allowing the scriptures to explain to us that which God is saying, instead of what man thinks it is saying.

I really cannot figure out what the point of this thread is but let us see what Scripture says regarding your foundation:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"--It is very important to note that "was" is the Greek en, and denotes absolute existence, that is, continuous existence in the past. Contrast this with verse 14--"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"--where "became" is the Greek egeneto and speaks to a point in time, a coming into existence.

In other words, the logos has always been and was in existence already "In the beginning."

It is all well to try and understand what logos means but part of that meaning is the context. You cannot say you understand the logos if you ignore that he is as eternal as God. And, of course, the context includes verse 3--"All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made"--which again shows that the logos existed in eternity past.

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Hi Free:

God always existed , because God always was , and had no beginning and no ending. But the "logos" did not always exist.

What I see you suggesting, is that you are trying to impose your thoughts into this one word "logos". The very beginning of John 1:1 states clearly - "In the beginning was the Word". God not having a beginning clearly puts this word - Word ( logos ) at a beginning point in time. The next part of the verse states clearly also - "and the Word was with God". Part one clearly states that the Word (logos) was in the beginning. So the Word with God, was also in the beginning. As is the same with the last part of this verse - "and the Word was God". The word was God, when ? Nothing has changed ! The Word (logos) was God in the beginning.

Once the "logos" is spoken, then and only then is that which was spoken manifested. It didn't exist prior to the "logos", the spoken Word.

When we look back at the book of Genesis. We see God creating and making and forming. In Genesis 1:3 it states -- "God said" -- As soon as "God said", we now have the spoken Word (logos), and not until then. We know "light" existed prior to God saying "let there be light", because God is all light. We also notice that God didn't create light, because light already existed in God, or to say, in the make up of God.

But here on this earth, this light didn't exist here on this earth. This light spoke of here in Gen. 1:3 is spiritual light, not literal light. Again, spiritual light existed , but not here upon this earth prior to God saying - "let there be light. Light is not "logos". "Logos" is the spoken word of God. Another way of looking at it, is -- Light is light and God is God and "logos" is "logos". God is light and God spoke his light into manifestation. But the light God spoke into manifestation can not be all of the light of God. God's light is a consuming light. The more God releases his light the more it consumes. In this case, in Gen. 1:3 the amount of light God releases here is the amount that seperates light from darkness. And God calls this light , Day, and God calls the darkness, Night. The word "Day" here is not our day of 24 hrs. The word "Day" here, is a reflection of God, not man. This amount of light that God calls - Day, is a reflection of many understandings. It seperates , it distinguishes, and is a reflection of the time frame that God uses. One day with the Lord is as a thousand years of man, and a thousand years as one day with the Lord. When God told Adam, that - "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die". This "day" that God is talking about here, is his "logos". His spoken Word in Gen. 1:3. Prior to Gen. 1:3 this light did not exist. Hence, this thousand years did not exist. Hence this "day" did not exist. Adam died - "in that day", which means during that 1,000 years, for he lived 930 years and died, which means within God's Day. All of this occured by God speaking (logos) - "let there be light". God (light) always was, but his "logos" has a beginning.

How about you address the substance of my post? It seems as though you did not even read it. The Greek itself makes it impossible for the logos to have been created. This is not my thought, this is what the Greek text states.

 

[Mysteryman]

I am working my way towards this verse. A foundation must be established first. The very first thing people should understand,is this word "logos" and what it means. Way too many people super impose their beiefs upon scripture. Instead of allowing the scriptures to explain to us that which God is saying, instead of what man thinks it is saying.

I really cannot figure out what the point of this thread is but let us see what Scripture says regarding your foundation:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"--It is very important to note that "was" is the Greek en, and denotes absolute existence, that is, continuous existence in the past. Contrast this with verse 14--"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"--where "became" is the Greek egeneto and speaks to a point in time, a coming into existence.

In other words, the logos has always been and was in existence already "In the beginning."

It is all well to try and understand what logos means but part of that meaning is the context. You cannot say you understand the logos if you ignore that he is as eternal as God. And, of course, the context includes verse 3--"All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made"--which again shows that the logos existed in eternity past.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Free:

God always existed , because God always was , and had no beginning and no ending. But the "logos" did not always exist.

What I see you suggesting, is that you are trying to impose your thoughts into this one word "logos". The very beginning of John 1:1 states clearly - "In the beginning was the Word". God not having a beginning clearly puts this word - Word ( logos ) at a beginning point in time. The next part of the verse states clearly also - "and the Word was with God". Part one clearly states that the Word (logos) was in the beginning. So the Word with God, was also in the beginning. As is the same with the last part of this verse - "and the Word was God". The word was God, when ? Nothing has changed ! The Word (logos) was God in the beginning.

Once the "logos" is spoken, then and only then is that which was spoken manifested. It didn't exist prior to the "logos", the spoken Word.

When we look back at the book of Genesis. We see God creating and making and forming. In Genesis 1:3 it states -- "God said" -- As soon as "God said", we now have the spoken Word (logos), and not until then. We know "light" existed prior to God saying "let there be light", because God is all light. We also notice that God didn't create light, because light already existed in God, or to say, in the make up of God.

But here on this earth, this light didn't exist here on this earth. This light spoke of here in Gen. 1:3 is spiritual light, not literal light. Again, spiritual light existed , but not here upon this earth prior to God saying - "let there be light. Light is not "logos". "Logos" is the spoken word of God. Another way of looking at it, is -- Light is light and God is God and "logos" is "logos". God is light and God spoke his light into manifestation. But the light God spoke into manifestation can not be all of the light of God. God's light is a consuming light. The more God releases his light the more it consumes. In this case, in Gen. 1:3 the amount of light God releases here is the amount that seperates light from darkness. And God calls this light , Day, and God calls the darkness, Night. The word "Day" here is not our day of 24 hrs. The word "Day" here, is a reflection of God, not man. This amount of light that God calls - Day, is a reflection of many understandings. It seperates , it distinguishes, and is a reflection of the time frame that God uses. One day with the Lord is as a thousand years of man, and a thousand years as one day with the Lord. When God told Adam, that - "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die". This "day" that God is talking about here, is his "logos". His spoken Word in Gen. 1:3. Prior to Gen. 1:3 this light did not exist. Hence, this thousand years did not exist. Hence this "day" did not exist. Adam died - "in that day", which means during that 1,000 years, for he lived 930 years and died, which means within God's Day. All of this occured by God speaking (logos) - "let there be light". God (light) always was, but his "logos" has a beginning.

How about you address the substance of my post? It seems as though you did not even read it. The Greek itself makes it impossible for the logos to have been created. This is not my thought, this is what the Greek text states.[/quote]

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Hi Free :

What you must try and understand, is that I am doing my best to reply to your comments in a logical and biblical (spiritual) manner.

For instance, you also said this >

Quote Free : ""And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"--where "became" is the Greek egeneto and speaks to a point in time, a coming into existence.

In other words, the logos has always been and was in existence already "In the beginning."

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Free :

I agree that the word "became" in the greek indicates to us, that it speaks of a point in time, and is a coming into existence.

However, I disagree with you last comment, that the logos has always been and was in existence already.

Your two comments contradict each other.

The "logos" is the spoken word with authority and power. This earth did not exist prior to God speaking it into manifestation. God foreknew what he was about to do, but the heaven(s) and earth were not manifested "until" the "logos".

The word "logos" is used many times in the scriptures. Another great example of this is in Hebrews 12:19 thru verse 27 ( i encourage reading through verse 29) < Notice the "logos" in verse 19 and the context of the power and authority of his "logos".