John 1:1 & 2

[Free]

What you must try and understand, is that I am doing my best to reply to your comments in a logical and biblical (spiritual) manner.

For instance, you also said this >

Quote Free : ""And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"--where "became" is the Greek egeneto and speaks to a point in time, a coming into existence.

In other words, the logos has always been and was in existence already "In the beginning."

-------------

Free :

I agree that the word "became" in the greek indicates to us, that it speaks of a point in time, and is a coming into existence.

However, I disagree with you last comment, that the logos has always been and was in existence already.

Your two comments contradict each other.

The "logos" is the spoken word with authority and power. This earth did not exist prior to God speaking it into manifestation. God foreknew what he was about to do, but the heaven(s) and earth were not manifested "until" the "logos".

The word "logos" is used many times in the scriptures. Another great example of this is in Hebrews 12:19 thru verse 27 ( i encourage reading through verse 29) < Notice the "logos" in verse 19 and the context of the power and authority of his "logos".

No, there is no contradiction. The Greek states that at the point of beginning, the Word already was--"was with God" and "was God"--but then at a point in time the Word "became flesh and dwelt among us." Notice the contrast: the logos had existed for eternity past, and is therefore rightly referred to as God, but then at a point in time long after "the beginning," the Word became flesh.

This is not only supported by other passages but even in the immediate context:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Verse 2 again states that the Word was already in existence in with God, in a sense of active communion. And verse 3, apart from any knowledge of Greek, leads to the conclusion that the Word was not created. You would have to substantially change the meanings of the words or throw out all rational thought to make it say otherwise.

 

[Free]

The "logos" is the spoken word with authority and power

That is not the Greek understanding of what the logos is.

 

[Mysteryman]

What you must try and understand, is that I am doing my best to reply to your comments in a logical and biblical (spiritual) manner.

For instance, you also said this >

Quote Free : ""And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"--where "became" is the Greek egeneto and speaks to a point in time, a coming into existence.

In other words, the logos has always been and was in existence already "In the beginning."

-------------

Free :

I agree that the word "became" in the greek indicates to us, that it speaks of a point in time, and is a coming into existence.

However, I disagree with you last comment, that the logos has always been and was in existence already.

Your two comments contradict each other.

The "logos" is the spoken word with authority and power. This earth did not exist prior to God speaking it into manifestation. God foreknew what he was about to do, but the heaven(s) and earth were not manifested "until" the "logos".

The word "logos" is used many times in the scriptures. Another great example of this is in Hebrews 12:19 thru verse 27 ( i encourage reading through verse 29) < Notice the "logos" in verse 19 and the context of the power and authority of his "logos".

No, there is no contradiction. The Greek states that at the point of beginning, the Word already was--"was with God" and "was God"--but then at a point in time the Word "became flesh and dwelt among us." Notice the contrast: the logos had existed for eternity past, and is therefore rightly referred to as God, but then at a point in time long after "the beginning," the Word became flesh.

This is not only supported by other passages but even in the immediate context:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Verse 2 again states that the Word was already in existence in with God, in a sense of active communion. And verse 3, apart from any knowledge of Greek, leads to the conclusion that the Word was not created. You would have to substantially change the meanings of the words or throw out all rational thought to make it say otherwise.

Hi Free

Show me in the beginning where the word became flesh. Could you do that for the sake of this discussion ?

Also, John 1:2 does not say "he" , unless of course you are using another translation and not the KJV which states - "the same", which refers back to the "logos" = Word.

 

[Free]

What you must try and understand, is that I am doing my best to reply to your comments in a logical and biblical (spiritual) manner.

For instance, you also said this >

Quote Free : ""And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"--where "became" is the Greek egeneto and speaks to a point in time, a coming into existence.

In other words, the logos has always been and was in existence already "In the beginning."

-------------

Free :

I agree that the word "became" in the greek indicates to us, that it speaks of a point in time, and is a coming into existence.

However, I disagree with you last comment, that the logos has always been and was in existence already.

Your two comments contradict each other.

The "logos" is the spoken word with authority and power. This earth did not exist prior to God speaking it into manifestation. God foreknew what he was about to do, but the heaven(s) and earth were not manifested "until" the "logos".

The word "logos" is used many times in the scriptures. Another great example of this is in Hebrews 12:19 thru verse 27 ( i encourage reading through verse 29) < Notice the "logos" in verse 19 and the context of the power and authority of his "logos".

No, there is no contradiction. The Greek states that at the point of beginning, the Word already was--"was with God" and "was God"--but then at a point in time the Word "became flesh and dwelt among us." Notice the contrast: the logos had existed for eternity past, and is therefore rightly referred to as God, but then at a point in time long after "the beginning," the Word became flesh.

This is not only supported by other passages but even in the immediate context:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Verse 2 again states that the Word was already in existence in with God, in a sense of active communion. And verse 3, apart from any knowledge of Greek, leads to the conclusion that the Word was not created. You would have to substantially change the meanings of the words or throw out all rational thought to make it say otherwise.

Hi Free

Show me in the beginning where the word became flesh. Could you do that for the sake of this discussion ?

No, I can't, because "the Word became flesh" when Christ was born.

Also, John 1:2 does not say "he" , unless of course you are using another translation and not the KJV which states - "the same", which refers back to the "logos" = Word.

It doesn't matter. That does not change the meaning of what is being said.

 

[Mysteryman]

The "logos" is the spoken word with authority and power

That is not the Greek understanding of what the logos is.

Hi Free :

I have to disagree with you. Here is this word "logos" from the Strong's. But also remember the context of the scriptures where it is used.

Strong's :

Logos:


1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word

a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning

b) speech, discourse

1) what one has said

c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one's mind made in words)

1) an utterance

2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative

a) concerning some occurrence

2) subject matter of speech, thing spoken of

a) so far forth as it is a matter of narration

b) so far as it is a matter of command

c) a matter of dispute, case at law

 

[Free]

The "logos" is the spoken word with authority and power

That is not the Greek understanding of what the logos is.

Hi Free :

I have to disagree with you. Here is this word "logos" from the Strong's. But also remember the context of the scriptures where it is used.

Strong's :

Logos:


1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word

a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning

b) speech, discourse

1) what one has said

c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one's mind made in words)

1) an utterance

2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative

a) concerning some occurrence

2) subject matter of speech, thing spoken of

a) so far forth as it is a matter of narration

b) so far as it is a matter of command

c) a matter of dispute, case at law

Please use sources other than Strong's.

 

[Mysteryman]

Re: John 1:10 - 12

John 1:10 - "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not"

In the context of verses 1 - 9 , we know that God made the world and everything in the world. In order to grasp what this means, that "he was in the world", we first should remember that the spirit of God was in the world, but not all of God. This can be understood by searching the scriptures to see if those things are so or not. By reading I Kings 8:27 , and if the heaven and heavens of heaven cannot contain him, then surely this small earth cannot contain God either.

So when we read that the Spirit of God moved upon the waters in Gen. 1:2, this obviously must only be a small portion of God, or a remnant. Usually the word "remnant" means, that which is left over. But it also means, "a part of" or the best understanding in this case, is , "to cause to be over" (Yathar). The word remnant also means - "to remain", which is another great example.

God was in the world, but only a portion that would remain. The Spirit of God in Gen. 1:3 - 5 is what remains. Light that divides, the Light that is called Day. Also, the light of men, was in men, the spirit of man. Also upon a Prophet of God was the - "Spirit of God".

And yet, the world knew him (the Spirit of God) not. When the word "world" is used in reference to God, it is speaking about that which is opposite of God, thus darkness, or that which opposes God.

Verse 11 - "He came unto his own, and his own received him not" <-- This verse can be understood again by going back to Genesis chapters 2 thru 5. Man rejecting the will of God.

Verse 12 - "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, to them that believe on his name" I would like to point out here, that the word name here could indicate one's actual name. But it also could indicate one's title, such as the title - Lord, or Lord God, or just the word - God. In Genesis 4:26 , we read that Seth had a son Enos, and then began men to call upon the name of the Lord. We also read in Genesis 5:22 that Enoch walked with God . We also know that from Seth, came Noah. From Seth's geneology lineage, God then refers to those who walk with God and call upon the name of the Lord , as sons of God - Gen. 6:1

To be continued ......

 

[Free]

What is the point of this thread? What are you getting at? You haven't correctly understood verses 1-3, so why are you continuing with verses 10-12?

 

[Sinthesis]

Re: John 1:10 - 12

John 1:10 - "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not"

In the context of verses 1 - 9 , we know that God made the world and everything in the world. In order to grasp what this means, that "he was in the world", we first should remember that the spirit of God was in the world, but not all of God. This can be understood by searching the scriptures to see if those things are so or not. By reading I Kings 8:27 , and if the heaven and heavens of heaven cannot contain him, then surely this small earth cannot contain God either.

So when we read that the Spirit of God moved upon the waters in Gen. 1:2, this obviously must only be a small portion of God, or a remnant. Usually the word "remnant" means, that which is left over. But it also means, "a part of" or the best understanding in this case, is , "to cause to be over" (Yathar). The word remnant also means - "to remain", which is another great example.

God was in the world, but only a portion that would remain. The Spirit of God in Gen. 1:3 - 5 is what remains. Light that divides, the Light that is called Day. Also, the light of men, was in men, the spirit of man. Also upon a Prophet of God was the - "Spirit of God".

And yet, the world knew him (the Spirit of God) not. When the word "world" is used in reference to God, it is speaking about that which is opposite of God, thus darkness, or that which opposes God.

Verse 11 - "He came unto his own, and his own received him not" <-- This verse can be understood again by going back to Genesis chapters 2 thru 5. Man rejecting the will of God.

Verse 12 - "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, to them that believe on his name" I would like to point out here, that the word name here could indicate one's actual name. But it also could indicate one's title, such as the title - Lord, or Lord God, or just the word - God. In Genesis 4:26 , we read that Seth had a son Enos, and then began men to call upon the name of the Lord. We also read in Genesis 5:22 that Enoch walked with God . We also know that from Seth, came Noah. From Seth's geneology lineage, God then refers to those who walk with God and call upon the name of the Lord , as sons of God - Gen. 6:1

To be continued ......

• Jhn 1:10 - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
  Jhn 1:11 - He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
  Jhn 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

I am puzzled as to how any Christian would not see the above verses as pertaining to Christ Jesus.

 

[Mysteryman]

Re: John 1:10 - 12

• Jhn 1:10 - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
  Jhn 1:11 - He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
  Jhn 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

I am puzzled as to how any Christian would not see the above verses as pertaining to Christ Jesus.

Hi :

Simple ! When anyone's beliefs super impose their beliefs upon scripture, they will only see what they want to see. Or what they have been taught to see/believe.

Jesus Christ did not come into manifestation, into this world, until that time that he was born from his mothers womb. Jesus was the bread from heaven. John 1:10 is talking about the Spirit of God, not Jesus.

 

[stovebolts]

When anyone's beliefs super impose their beliefs upon scripture, they will only see what they want to see. Or what they have been taught to see/believe.

Hervey,
Not much time today to respond to your last reply to me, but I would like to know what reading material you have read to come up with, and support some of your assertions because honestly, your last post seemed to put Jesus no better than a prophet that perhaps was only slightly elevated above Moses.

 

[Mysteryman]

When anyone's beliefs super impose their beliefs upon scripture, they will only see what they want to see. Or what they have been taught to see/believe.

Hervey,
Not much time today to respond to your last reply to me, but I would like to know what reading material you have read to come up with, and support some of your assertions because honestly, your last post seemed to put Jesus no better than a prophet that perhaps was only slightly elevated above Moses.

Hi Jeff:

We can expound on this further in the near future. But Jesus is more than a mere Prophet. But some elevate him above what he actually is, according to scripture. (later on this - okay ? )

As far as there being certain reading material from which I come up with, from which I am drawing from ? There is absoluetly no reading material that I am drawing my conclusions from. I have read many writings by many different authors. Many of what I have read, I have tossed out as false, and nothing more than a view from the writers perspective. Which I also believe was influenced in some way. Some of the writers, of the material I have read, even give their refernces from which they draw their conclusions.

What I have written within this thread, is in no way something I have drawn from someone elses material.

There came a point within my life, that I came to conclusion that what the Word is actually telling us, is what one can believe. That is, that nothing from the scriptures is of any private interpretation. Plus, the Spirit must reveal and open up the eyes of our understanding. Studying with any group, or an organization, could possibly bring one towards the truth. But they also could bring you towards error. We are to put our trust in God, who is the one who opens up the eyes of our undertanding.

God does send Apostles, Prophets, teachers, evangilists, and Pastors to build up and edify the church. And to keep the church from being blown about with every wind of doctrine. However, we all know, that there are also false teachers and false etc, who want to teach false doctrines of men or of devils. The way in which one determinds the truth is with the Spirit of truth, which is also called the comforter.

The gospel of Christ, which is written in our hearts, and not with paper and ink, is what we should draw from. There are many influences within the world. One needs to seperate one's self from all of those influences, and pray in quiet with the Lord.

Bless

 

[Vic C.]

Hi :

Simple ! When anyone's beliefs super impose their beliefs upon scripture, they will only see what they want to see. Or what they have been taught to see/believe.

Hey, that sounds familiar! LOL Now if only we can get you to believe it yourself. :D

 

[Free]

• Jhn 1:10 - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
  Jhn 1:11 - He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
  Jhn 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

I am puzzled as to how any Christian would not see the above verses as pertaining to Christ Jesus.

Hi :

Simple ! When anyone's beliefs super impose their beliefs upon scripture, they will only see what they want to see. Or what they have been taught to see/believe.

Jesus Christ did not come into manifestation, into this world, until that time that he was born from his mothers womb. Jesus was the bread from heaven. John 1:10 is talking about the Spirit of God, not Jesus.

John 1:1-15, 29-30:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.
8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'")
....
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
30 This is he of whom I said, 'After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.' (ESV)


I hope that you would agree that context is extremely important when determining the meaning of a word or passage, so please notice something about the context here MM: The light is clearly referring to the Word or to something that is in the Word as seen in verse 4.

Verses 6 and 7 state that John was sent by God to be a witness about the light. Verses 15 and 30 then clearly show that the one whom John was sent to witness was Jesus, the Word manifest in flesh (vs 14), again showing that he is the light.

Verse 10 is clearly speaking of the light being in the world and that the world was made through him. And this is consistent with what is stated in verse 1-3 which clearly show that the Word has existed for eternity past.

The common understanding of this passage is entirely coherent which stands in stark contrast to your position that contains some glaring inconsistencies. Your error in understanding who the Word is is now causing you to reinterpret verse 10, and I'm sure numerous other passages as well.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi :

Simple ! When anyone's beliefs super impose their beliefs upon scripture, they will only see what they want to see. Or what they have been taught to see/believe.

Hey, that sounds familiar! LOL Now if only we can get you to believe it yourself. :D

Hi Vic :

Yes, the door swings both ways, does it not ? :yes

I am aware how my comments can be taken. But I am speaking not only from knowledge, but also from experience. And I have no doubt, that you might have seen the same in some fashion.

 

[Mysteryman]

• Jhn 1:10 - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
  Jhn 1:11 - He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
  Jhn 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

I am puzzled as to how any Christian would not see the above verses as pertaining to Christ Jesus.

Hi :

Simple ! When anyone's beliefs super impose their beliefs upon scripture, they will only see what they want to see. Or what they have been taught to see/believe.

Jesus Christ did not come into manifestation, into this world, until that time that he was born from his mothers womb. Jesus was the bread from heaven. John 1:10 is talking about the Spirit of God, not Jesus.

John 1:1-15, 29-30:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.
8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'")
....
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
30 This is he of whom I said, 'After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.' (ESV)


I hope that you would agree that context is extremely important when determining the meaning of a word or passage, so please notice something about the context here MM: The light is clearly referring to the Word or to something that is in the Word as seen in verse 4.

Verses 6 and 7 state that John was sent by God to be a witness about the light. Verses 15 and 30 then clearly show that the one whom John was sent to witness was Jesus, the Word manifest in flesh (vs 14), again showing that he is the light.

Verse 10 is clearly speaking of the light being in the world and that the world was made through him. And this is consistent with what is stated in verse 1-3 which clearly show that the Word has existed for eternity past.

The common understanding of this passage is entirely coherent which stands in stark contrast to your position that contains some glaring inconsistencies. Your error in understanding who the Word is is now causing you to reinterpret verse 10, and I'm sure numerous other passages as well.

Hi Free :

I understand and understood when I started this thread. That there would be opposition to my comments. This does not mean that you have to agree with what I have posted as of this date. However, I have already given ample scriptural evidence to support what the word - "Light" represents. Lets not forget also, that in verse 9 , that that Light was the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world !

Yes, I agree with you that there is what is called - "common understanding of these passages". Call it the common belief among the majority if you will. But none the less, I am giving others an opportunity to look beyond their so called common understanding.

 

[Free]

Hi Free :

I understand and understood when I started this thread. That there would be opposition to my comments. This does not mean that you have to agree with what I have posted as of this date. However, I have already given ample scriptural evidence to support what the word - "Light" represents. Lets not forget also, that in verse 9 , that that Light was the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world !

Yes, I agree with you that there is what is called - "common understanding of these passages". Call it the common belief among the majority if you will. But none the less, I am giving others an opportunity to look beyond their so called common understanding.

I can't help but notice that this is the second time in as many pages that you haven't attempted to engage in the Scripture and understanding of it that I gave, and instead just say that people are wrong and you are right, having given only your opinion on what you think the Scriptures say.

It really seems as though you aren't interested in what others say, which speaks volumes.

 

[Sinthesis]

Re: John 1:10 - 12

Simple ! When anyone's beliefs super impose their beliefs upon scripture, they will only see what they want to see. Or what they have been taught to see/believe.

Jesus Christ did not come into manifestation, into this world, until that time that he was born from his mothers womb. Jesus was the bread from heaven. John 1:10 is talking about the Spirit of God, not Jesus.

Ok... I don't think you understand what 'manifest' means. It means to be 'made known', not just 'made'. Something can be 'made known' only if it already exists.

• 1Ti 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Free :

I understand and understood when I started this thread. That there would be opposition to my comments. This does not mean that you have to agree with what I have posted as of this date. However, I have already given ample scriptural evidence to support what the word - "Light" represents. Lets not forget also, that in verse 9 , that that Light was the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world !

Yes, I agree with you that there is what is called - "common understanding of these passages". Call it the common belief among the majority if you will. But none the less, I am giving others an opportunity to look beyond their so called common understanding.

I can't help but notice that this is the second time in as many pages that you haven't attempted to engage in the Scripture and understanding of it that I gave, and instead just say that people are wrong and you are right, having given only your opinion on what you think the Scriptures say.

It really seems as though you aren't interested in what others say, which speaks volumes.

Hi Free:

Apparently you didn't notice how I corrected your error ?

 

[Mysteryman]

Re: John 1:13

Before moving on with this thread, a little reminder here :

In John 1:7 it tells us that John came to witness - The Light -- and through him might believe.

I have established that - The Light , is the - Spirit of God

This light also is in every man that cometh into the world - verse 9

Now verse 13 - "Which were born , not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" < God's will

The sons of God who received him ( him who ? ), to them God gave them power to become the sons of God. The - him who ? has already been answerd. This is talking about God. But its talking specifically about receiving the Spirit of God. Those who are called sons of God, by God, were not born of blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man. So when God calls someone a son of God, it is by the will of God, that God gave the power unto those to be called a son of God. Angels were called sons of God, as well as the lineage of Seth , who believed and called upon the name of the Lord. But we also know that Jesus Christ was called the only begotten Son of God. This is also by the will of God that Jesus Christ be called the Son of God.

Romans 8:14 - "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God"

And from this point, we will go into verse 14.

To be continued ---