John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[Jethro Bodine]

I guess the p stands for people.
This is new.
For me.
Did You make it up?

I thought it meant po'folk.

 

[atpollard]

Look at verse 24 and 25 of this passage you are using to defend OSAS:

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." (1 John 2:24-25)

As you point out, John is contrasting those who have denied Christ, and those who have not and who have the anointing. The clear warning to those who have the anointing (believers) is to let the word they heard in the beginning continue in them, because if they don't they will not continue in the Son and the Father.

Now hyper-grace argues that not continuing in the Son and the Father is a reference to losing manifest fellowship with God, not a reference to losing salvation/ eternal life. But verse 25 shows us that John is indeed talking about continuing in eternal life, not just manifest fellowship with God.

John addresses this issue again later in the letter:

"...Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20 NASB)

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-112 NASB)

Having eternal life is having Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ IS eternal life. That's why if you don't have Jesus Christ because He no longer abides in you because you did not continue in what you first heard, you do not have eternal life. But OSAS has it so even if you are no longer in Christ, who is eternal life, and cut out of Christ the vine, you somehow still have the eternal life you are separated from. That's not what John says.

Then to complicate things even more, some theologians explain John's obvious non-OSAS teaching by creating the 'two gospel' doctrine to explain that John is talking to the Jews who operate under a gospel of kingdom works where you can lose your salvation, as opposed to the gentiles who operate under a gospel of grace, not works, and who can't lose their salvation. But as has been pointed out, that can not be true as evidenced by other scripture, and the simple fact that there is no salvation possible under a gospel of works anyway. Never has been, never will be.

I feel no obligation to defend the beliefs of these "invisible unicorn" hyper-Calvinists that I have never met and may or may not exist.

Is it really so unreasonable for me to believe that the God who began a good work in me is able to see it to completion (which we both agree on) and will actually do so (which I believe)?

 

[Atonement]

Yeah. I know what's going on here.

So we can't both be right.
So what to do?
Maybe what I said might be of help?
Who is right:
1,500 years of theology, or Mr. Calvin?

What about the early church Fathers?
Do you have any respect for them at all?
§Do they deserve any respect?

I like to use the example of John Kennedy.
1963 - 2017
Only 54 years instead of 1,500 !!!
But who knows more about him?
His family, family's friends, friends, friends of friends,
OR some guy who wants to write a book about him and reads about him??

I'd say it would be the first group.
Would you agree?

Yes. This is a trick question...

Again I believe that we are always revolving and the Scripture is too. Is as much as it will enlighten a certain passage to a individual. The same can happen about theology. The angel told Daniel to seal up the book until the end times Daniel 12:4. During these end times which many agree we have been in since Christ's Resurrection, more and more has been revealed to the Church. It's men's idea to break off and create different denominations - all based around what? Interpretation of Scripture.

You're right, I don't and won't answer trickery questions.. Keep it simple if you have the answer.. You said one side is "wrong".. So here is your chance to prove your side right... Unfortunately I know the outcome already, therefore it makes no sense for me to partake in this debate and/or answer questions that open me to this debate.

 

[GodsGrace]

I feel no obligation to defend the beliefs of these "invisible unicorn" hyper-Calvinists that I have never met and may or may not exist.

Is it really so unreasonable for me to believe that the God who began a good work in me is able to see it to completion (which we both agree on) and will actually do so (which I believe)?

He'll complete the good work in you
IF YOU ALLOW HIM TO.

Did you lose your free will after you got saved?
Do you believe in free will??

 

[GodsGrace]

Again I believe that we are always revolving and the Scripture is too. Is as much as it will enlighten a certain passage to a individual. The same can happen about theology. The angel told Daniel to seal up the book until the end times Daniel 12:4. During these end times which many agree we have been in since Christ's Resurrection, more and more has been revealed to the Church. It's men's idea to break off and create different denominations - all based around what? Interpretation of Scripture.

You're right, I don't and won't answer trickery questions.. Keep it simple if you have the answer.. You said one side is "wrong".. So here is your chance to prove your side right... Unfortunately I know the outcome already, therefore it makes no sense for me to partake in this debate and/or answer questions that open me to this debate.

I'm not going to debate this since I've found that it's useless. Sometimes someone will make a comment that I can't help but reply to.

I'll answer my own question to you but when I return.
It has to do with the early church fathers, as I'm sure you've gathered.

But why wouldn't you answer the question?
!!
Arent' you sure of yourself??

Later.



.

 

[Atonement]

Perhaps the main problem confronting OSASer's is they don't understand the true non-OSAS argument to begin with. For example, I see over and over and over again the same people bringing up the same false notion that non-OSAS is about being saved by your works, even after it is explained to them that non-OSAS is about the necessity to continue to believe.

Maybe we should live ourselves pleasing and glorifying the Father. Having a repentive heart while edifying, loving, supporting each other. These are the fruits of the spirit. Living this way each day one can be sure in their Salvation through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Atonement]

I'm not going to debate this since I've found that it's useless. Sometimes someone will make a comment that I can't help but reply to.

I'll answer my own question to you but when I return.
It has to do with the early church fathers, as I'm sure you've gathered.

But why wouldn't you answer the question?
!!
Arent' you sure of yourself??

Later.

.

Am I sure of myself? Is this now the question asked to me because you can't prove your side to be the correct one? I never said anything about my position, you don't know me enough to ask such a question..

Bye

 

[JLB]

I feel no obligation to defend the beliefs of these "invisible unicorn" hyper-Calvinists that I have never met and may or may not exist.

Is it really so unreasonable for me to believe that the God who began a good work in me is able to see it to completion (which we both agree on) and will actually do so (which I believe)?

That's awesome!

Just keep believeing, so God will continue His work of restoration within you.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe we should live ourselves pleasing and glorifying the Father. Having a repentive heart while edifying, loving, supporting each other. These are the fruits of the spirit. Living this way each day one can be sure in their Salvation through the Holy Spirit.

We're all sure of our salvation.
This isn't the point.

I'll tell you why I'm here and then I have to go till later.

We are not only speaking to each other.
I learned early on that there are guests reading along.
Some of them are new Christians.
Some are confused about this issue.
So, it's really for them that I post.
I know I won't change your mind and you won't change mine.

There is no condemnation here since I said I do believe we are all saved.

Jesus saves us --- not our doctrinal beliefs.
I just think it's dangerous for a new Christian to go about believing he will never lose his salvation no matter what because it is secured in Christ.

This is NOT what Jesus said. He never said to just believe in HIm. He gave all kinds of instruction, teaching, exhortations.



.

 

[JLB]

Maybe we should live ourselves pleasing and glorifying the Father. Having a repentive heart while edifying, loving, supporting each other. These are the fruits of the spirit. Living this way each day one can be sure in their Salvation through the Holy Spirit.

Amen.

If we don't live that way, and begin to teach false doctrine, that causes His people to depart from the faith, does that glorify and please God?


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Am I sure of myself? Is this now the question asked to me because you can't prove your side to be the correct one? I never said anything about my position, you don't know me enough to ask such a question..

Bye

What question?
If you're sure of yourself?
I aplogogize if that's hurtful.
You could ask me, I'm not so sensitive.
I'm sure of myself. Yes. I am.

Will have MUCH scripture for you if you so desire.
If that Bye was permanent, well. I'll still be around.

 

[Atonement]

What question?
If you're sure of yourself?
I aplogogize if that's hurtful.
You could ask me, I'm not so sensitive.
I'm sure of myself. Yes. I am.

Edited by Atonement:
Reason: Quoted the wrong post


ROFL ..... You must be new here...
I debated this topic for years on this very site with hundreds of different people. I still stand firm in my position! Because I refuse to indulge yet again in this conversation because it turns to another debate, you question my assurance?? You are full of tricks aren't you..

 

[WIP]

but I am not searching for truth - if that's what it came across as.

You're not? Isn't that what this type of discussion or study is about?

 

[JLB]

ROFL ..... You must be new here...
I debated this topic for years on this very site with hundreds of different people. I still stand firm in my position! Because I refuse to indulge yet again in this conversation because it turns to another debate, you question my assurance?? You are full of tricks aren't you..

I think she has more "likes" than you have "posts".

She is not new hear, brother.

Let's discuss scripture, please.


You are both Gods children and loved dearly by Him.


JLB

 

[WIP]

Reminder: This is the Theology forum so when posting an opposing view include the Scripture that supports what you post. It also helps to explain why you think said Scripture supports what you post. The idea is not to score points against others or win arguments despite the Truth of God. The idea is to show how your point of view is supported by the word of God.

 

[Nathan]

I don't keep in theses discussions to argue. If some come in and do it, I can't stop them. I seriously want to talk about it.

I've always felt I should be ready to give an answer for the hope that is in me. To give an answer to whoever asks about my faith. Not to argue, or get upset, or to be mean - just give an answer.

I'm 100% honest when I say I cannot recall anytime I have engaged another in this topic that the other person decided to quit. That's fine, I understand, but it really makes me wonder if OSAS doesn't just take what they believe by faith - based in someone else's words.

Faith is what comes from God and His Word.

You could make the argument that it's pointless to go back and forth over the same passages and such, but why can't you proceed on to other passages and true heartfelt belief? I mean, if your relying on this belief for eternity, seems to me it would be a pretty big chunk of your daily thoughts?

Non-OSAS people like me are not here to try and make someone doubt salvation. It's really quite the opposite. I have never been more sure in my entire life, even considering the time I did believe OSAS.

You don't have to believe what I say. That's fine. You don't know me, I'm a bunch of words on the other end of an electrical line. All I can do is lay out my intentions and hope someone accepts.

I'm not searching for truth about the topic. I'm searching for why people believe it. In order to truly understand I need to dig deeper than my beliefs of it, when I believed it.

Is it possible to move to a different area of the forum where debate is not allowed? I don't mind staying in here myself. I just don't give word to the obscene and off the wall posts.


Edit: I was typing this when a bunch of other stuff was said.

 

[Atonement]

I think she has more "likes" than you have "posts".

She is not new hear, brother.

Let's discuss scripture, please.


You are both Gods children and loved dearly by Him.


JLB

Most of my posts were deleted by Judy the previous Admin on this site.

 

[Atonement]

I don't keep in theses discussions to argue. If some come in and do it, I can't stop them. I seriously want to talk about it.

I've always felt I should be ready to give an answer for the hope that is in me. To give an answer to whoever asks about my faith. Not to argue, or get upset, or to be mean - just give an answer.

I'm 100% honest when I say I cannot recall anytime I have engaged another in this topic that the other person decided to quit. That's fine, I understand, but it really makes me wonder if OSAS doesn't just take what they believe by faith - based in someone else's words.

Faith is what comes from God and His Word.

You could make the argument that it's pointless to go back and forth over the same passages and such, but why can't you proceed on to other passages and true heartfelt belief? I mean, if your relying on this belief for eternity, seems to me it would be a pretty big chunk of your daily thoughts?

Non-OSAS people like me are not here to try and make someone doubt salvation. It's really quite the opposite. I have never been more sure in my entire life, even considering the time I did believe OSAS.

You don't have to believe what I say. That's fine. You don't know me, I'm a bunch of words on the other end of an electrical line. All I can do is lay out my intentions and hope someone accepts.

I'm not searching for truth about the topic. I'm searching for why people believe it. In order to truly understand I need to dig deeper than my beliefs of it, when I believed it.

Is it possible to move to a different area of the forum where debate is not allowed? I don't mind staying in here myself. I just don't give word to the obscene and off the wall posts.

Move it over to a Bible Study and it can be talked about..

 

[Nathan]

You're not? Isn't that what this type of discussion or study is about?

I hope my above post clarifies this.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Nathan,
It's okay to say that we are saved by OUR life.
Nothing wrong with it.

I also hear say that we are saved by the Lord's righteousness and not OUR righteousness. This is also incorrect.

We are saved by OUR righteousness. So then I hear that our righteousness is like filthy rags to God. I love it when one verse is taken out of the N.T. to prove something or other. One of the most important things one learns about hermeneutics is that this is NOT to be done and every scripture must support the general idea of the N.T. Otherwise, we can make the N.T. say whatever we want it to --- which it seems to me is the case here with OSAS.

What does righteous mean anyway?
And how is its meaning accomplished?

I mean, does Jesus have to do ALL the work???

hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

Hope everything is well over the waters.

It is my understanding that 2 Corinthians 5:21 states that our sin was imputed to Christ and his righteousness is imputed to us. Galatians 2:20 states " I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."