John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[Papa Zoom]

Actually Papa Zoom,
OSNAS is correct!

Wow. Everybody is starting to agree with me!!

Hebrews 6:4-6


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One of the big problems I have with OSNAS is it's the exact sound I make when I sneeze.

 

[GodsGrace]

Debates are not okay.. Discussions are.. Debates have their place, but I don't debate anymore...

I'll have this discussion with Nathan when he post in Bible Study.. thx

This is an open thread.
If you wish to speak only to Nathan, you should use PMing.

Discussions are good.
Debates are good.
Arguments are NOT.



.

 

[GodsGrace]

One of the big problems I have with OSNAS is it's the exact sound I make when I sneeze.

Yeah.
I've missed you...

Your sister in Christ



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[Atonement]

This is a debate forum. Not a Bible Study. Please respect my wishes.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Yeah.
I've missed you...

Your sister in Christ



.

me too. I actually have a cold too. Missed work which is rare for me. On the mend. Naps help.

 

[Papa Zoom]

This is a debate forum. Not a Bible Study. Please respect my wishes.

According to the forum rules, it's both: http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/forum-policies-and-rules.21267/#post-1244273

"Christian Theology is by definition the study of God through His word, the Holy Bible. That makes the Theology forum unique from many of our other forums in that this is a place specifically for these types of discussions."

So it appears there is plenty of room for discussions and study. They kind of go hand in hand.

 

[GodsGrace]

me too. I actually have a cold too. Missed work which is rare for me. On the mend. Naps help.

A cold?


Naps?
:yes

Back to topic...
:halo


.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Excuse me.
Then you DO agree with me?

For whoseover BELIEVES in Him (present tense)

IF we believe in Him at our time of death,
He will give us the eternal life for which we hoped.
Galatians 6:7-8
Mathew 25:46
Revelation 21:8



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I don't believe (no pun intended) that the 'belief' part is what is in question here; it seems people believe that there are other requirement outside of belief to inherit eternal life. The Master makes it quite plain in his own words that is not so.....The thief who died beside him had nothing more than belief yet Jesus welcomed him into his Kingdom.
Could it be that people abscribe such different meanings to faith and belief that they can't see the two are so closely intertwined that one cannot exist without the other?.....2 sides of the same coin?

 

[Papa Zoom]

A cold?


Naps?
:yes

Back to topic...
:halo


.

Yes and Yes.

My starting point on this whole issue is that God keeps His word. He will never forsake us. Here's a link to verses (I will post a few here) https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-I-Will-Never-Leave-You-Nor-Forsake-You/

I never think, well, I'm saved, that's that! I believe what God says about me (and all believers) is true. He will keep us. Make us able to stand. Finish the work He started. This is coming at it from a positive perspective and there is plenty of Scriptural support. I prefer approaching it from this perspective. It's encouraging. This is my starting point.

Deuteronomy 31:8 - And the LORD, he [it is] that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed.

While this was not written to us, it is for us. And God is the same today and yesterday. The very character of God is on display in that he will not fail us! That's amazing grace.

Hebrews 13:5 - [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Romans 8:28 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

2 Timothy 1:7 - For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

 

[WIP]

Re conversations turning into a debate. That's OK. Debates are OK. It's two opposing views. As long as conversations don't turn into arguments.

I understand your intended meaning but in reality an argument is to present opposing or different viewpoints. It's when the arguments or debates go sour with accusation, animosity, disrespect, etc. that they move away from being civil.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I read both 2 Corinthians 5:21 and Galatians 2:20.
I don't see our righteousness in God spoken of here.

It's right there:
2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV 1900) 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

We are make righteous in Him (Christ.)

Galatians 2:20 (KJV 1900) 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Apart from Him, we can do nothing. We cannot be righteous on our own. "Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness" (Romans 10:3)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I guess the p stands for people.
This is new.
For me.
Did You make it up?

OCHD
(Of Course He Did)

 

[GodsGrace]

OCHD
(Of Course He Did)

OIKT.

 

[Papa Zoom]

OIKT.

Too funny. I have to go to work and clean up my room and set up new art centers. But I'll be back. I have another post I want to add to this discussion but am waiting for the right moment.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I feel no obligation to defend the beliefs of these "invisible unicorn" hyper-Calvinists that I have never met and may or may not exist.

Okay, that's fine, but what about 1 John 2:24-25 NASB and how it fits, or doesn't fit, in with your traditional OSAS view of vs.19 in the same chapter?

"19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life."

(1 John 2:19,24-25 NASB bold mine)

Why is John warning the anointed believers who know the truth to let "that abide in you which you heard from the beginning" if OSAS is true and there is no possibility whatsoever of them losing their salvation/ eternal life? Vs. 25 makes it clear that the abiding John is talking about is the matter of abiding unto eternal life, not just fellowship as some claim. This passage shows us that the one who does not abide (continue) in the faith does not remain saved. What's your take on this?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I just think it's dangerous for a new Christian to go about believing he will never lose his salvation no matter what because it is secured in Christ.

This is NOT what Jesus said. He never said to just believe in HIm. He gave all kinds of instruction, teaching, exhortations.

Yes, but did Jesus suggest that his "all kinds of instructions, teaching, exhortations" about what to do were instrumental in our salvation? YES!
Not because those doings somehow earn us salvation, but because the faith that justifies (all by itself apart from works) can be seen in what it does. In fact, Christ will use our works as the evidence of whether or not we have truly believed in him (Matthew 25:31-46 NASB).

People who 'do' righteousness are righteous just as He is righteous (IOW, they have the righteousness of God):

"7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous" (1 John 3:7 NASB)

While those who are unrighteous show that they are not of God:

"anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10 NASB)

But the Protestant Church is convinced their 'do nothing' so-called faith will indeed keep them out of the lake of fire and usher them into the kingdom at the end of the age because they have told over and over and over again that salvation is by 'nothing at all'. Not even remotely true. Justification is by faith, all by itself apart from works. Salvation on the Day of Judgment will be based on the evidence in your life that justification by faith apart from works leaves behind.

Just as Abraham left footprints of faith, and so was commended as having the faith that justifies, so we also who have the faith of Abraham will leave footprints--footprints that will testify on our behalf at the resurrection to the fact that we, too, have the faith of Abraham, the faith that justifies. Butt prints of faith on the pew of your local church are not going to save you on the Day of Judgment. Footprints of faith in action in the sands of life will. They will be the evidence that God uses that shows you are indeed 'righteous just as He is righteous' because of your faith in him:

"34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ " (Matthew 25:34-36 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

While this was not written to us, it is for us. And God is the same today and yesterday. The very character of God is on display in that he will not fail us! That's amazing grace.

It is for us.
And look what the rest of the story is right there in Deuteronomy 31....

"this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. 17“Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide My face from them, and they will be consumed, and many evils and troubles will come upon them; so that they will say in that day, ‘Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have come upon us?’ 18“But I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they will do, for they will turn to other gods." (Deuteronomy 31:16-18 NASB)

In the very same passage that OSAS uses to prove OSAS God says in plain words that he WILL forsake those who forsake him. We can't leave the faith to worship other gods and God not somewhere along the line forsake us. What OSAS doesn't get is the 'not forsaking' is for those who cling to God, not for those who go back to their old lives in contemptuous unbelief. God will most certainly eventually abandon the ex-believer who does that.

The grace of God in his promise to never fail us and to never forsake us is not a license to sin. I'm confident you are not outright saying that (hyper-grace is the doctrine that teaches that), but the point is, God will indeed forsake his people if they forsake him and don't continue in the condition for him never failing or forsaking them. Stick to the condition of abiding him in and you will indeed have his sure and eternal promise that he will never fail you nor forsake you. This is what non-OSAS is all about: Security comes from your continued faith in him. Not from him keeping his promise to not forsake you even if you forsake him.

 

[civilwarbuff]

It is for us.
And look what the rest of the story is right there in Deuteronomy 31....

"this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. 17“Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide My face from them, and they will be consumed, and many evils and troubles will come upon them; so that they will say in that day, ‘Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have come upon us?’ 18“But I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they will do, for they will turn to other gods." (Deuteronomy 31:16-18 NASB)

In the very same passage that OSAS uses to prove OSAS God says in plain words that he WILL forsake those who forsake him. We can't leave the faith to worship other gods and God not somewhere along the line forsake us. What OSAS doesn't get is the 'not forsaking' is for those who cling to God, not for those who go back to their old lives in contemptuous unbelief. God will most certainly eventually abandon the ex-believer who does that.

The grace of God in his promise to never fail us and to never forsake us is not a license to sin. I'm confident you are not outright saying that (hyper-grace is the doctrine that teaches that), but the point is, God will indeed forsake his people if they forsake him and don't continue in the condition for him never failing or forsaking them. Stick to the condition of abiding him in and you will indeed have his sure and eternal promise that he will never fail you nor forsake you. This is what non-OSAS is all about: Security comes from your continued faith in him. Not from him keeping his promise to not forsake you even if you forsake him.

Hmmmm.....I always thought the OT Jews were under the Law not Grace....silly me.....

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, but did Jesus suggest that his "all kinds of instructions, teaching, exhortations" about what to do were instrumental in our salvation? YES!
Not because those doings somehow earn us salvation, but because the faith that justifies (all by itself apart from works) can be seen in what it does. In fact, Christ will use our works as the evidence of whether or not we have truly believed in him (Matthew 25:31-46 NASB).

People who 'do' righteousness are righteous just as He is righteous (IOW, they have the righteousness of God):

"7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous" (1 John 3:7 NASB)

While those who are unrighteous show that they are not of God:

"anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10 NASB)

But the Protestant Church is convinced their 'do nothing' so-called faith will indeed keep them out of the lake of fire and usher them into the kingdom at the end of the age because they have told over and over and over again that salvation is by 'nothing at all'. Not even remotely true. Justification is by faith, all by itself apart from works. Salvation on the Day of Judgment will be based on the evidence in your life that justification by faith apart from works leaves behind.

Just as Abraham left footprints of faith, and so was commended as having the faith that justifies, so we also who have the faith of Abraham will leave footprints--footprints that will testify on our behalf at the resurrection to the fact that we, too, have the faith of Abraham, the faith that justifies. Butt prints of faith on the pew of your local church are not going to save you on the Day of Judgment. Footprints of faith in action in the sands of life will. They will be the evidence that God uses that you are indeed 'righteous just as He is righteous', because of your faith in him:

"34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ " (Matthew 25:34-36 NASB)

Two comments:

If by "instrumental in our salvation" you mean our CONTINUED salvation, then I agree.

Salvation is by faith.

Continued salvation is by faith and our sanctification, which is a cooperation between us and God to make us holy, or set apart for service to God.

"We are righteous just as God is righteous". I do believe we must live by our own righteousness. God is righteous, but He does not impute that righteousness to us.
Just as He does not impute Adam's sin to us.

Please comment.

 

[Atonement]

According to the forum rules, it's both: http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/forum-policies-and-rules.21267/#post-1244273

"Christian Theology is by definition the study of God through His word, the Holy Bible. That makes the Theology forum unique from many of our other forums in that this is a place specifically for these types of discussions."

So it appears there is plenty of room for discussions and study. They kind of go hand in hand.

Awesome and I will handle this topic in another way where opinions are not debated but rather discussed.. thx for the info