John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[Nathan]

Move it over to a Bible Study and it can be talked about..

Ok, can't do it right now. But later on.

 

[Atonement]

Ok, can't do it right now. But later on.

Thank you brother.. I refuse to debate, you know this by our interaction in PM's.. I am happy to have a Bible study

 

[civilwarbuff]

He'll complete the good work in you
IF YOU ALLOW HIM TO.

Is that in scripture?

 

[civilwarbuff]

This is NOT what Jesus said. He never said to just believe in HIm. He gave all kinds of instruction, teaching, exhortations.

Actually He did.....not just once but twice.....
John 3
15 That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I guess the p stands for people.
This is new.
For me.
Did You make it up?

yes, I was hoping someone would ask. lol YCLYSP You Can Lose Your Salvation Peeps. After I went to bed I thought a better one would be OSNAS. ;)

 

[Papa Zoom]

I feel no obligation to defend the beliefs of these "invisible unicorn" hyper-Calvinists that I have never met and may or may not exist.

Is it really so unreasonable for me to believe that the God who began a good work in me is able to see it to completion (which we both agree on) and will actually do so (which I believe)?

This is where I am as well. There are promises/claims make that God will keep us and complete the work in us. In the meantime, we are to pursue holiness, work out our salvation, run the race, and live lives worthy of our calling. I believe a Believer must endure to the end but I also believe they will by the power of God. God continues to work in my life and my attitude is to serve others (starting with family) in His name until my last breath. Part of that service is to spur others on to good works. I don't think about OSAS in my daily life. I think only on how I can serve others today (my kids at school, fellow teachers, family, community). God gifts each of us for works. We're to use those gifts. And Jesus is the example. Followers follow.

A HUGE part of our obligation is to each other as believers in Jesus. We're to encourage each other. I am not blessed by this discussion and doubt anyone is. I understand that people feel it important but some go too far. You have hit the nail and in one verse said it all. He will complete the good work He started in us. It's a promise. We walk in light of that truth.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Maybe we should live ourselves pleasing and glorifying the Father. Having a repentive heart while edifying, loving, supporting each other. These are the fruits of the spirit. Living this way each day one can be sure in their Salvation through the Holy Spirit.

This is a post that is edifying! This is the way we ought to be to one another.

 

[Papa Zoom]

We're all sure of our salvation.
This isn't the point.

I'll tell you why I'm here and then I have to go till later.

We are not only speaking to each other.
I learned early on that there are guests reading along.
Some of them are new Christians.
Some are confused about this issue.
So, it's really for them that I post.
I know I won't change your mind and you won't change mine.

There is no condemnation here since I said I do believe we are all saved.

Jesus saves us --- not our doctrinal beliefs.
I just think it's dangerous for a new Christian to go about believing he will never lose his salvation no matter what because it is secured in Christ.

This is NOT what Jesus said. He never said to just believe in HIm. He gave all kinds of instruction, teaching, exhortations.
.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

We can know. And having life eternal means we have it now. Not will get it someday. Teaching others they can lose their salvation is to teach living in fear. Legalism is never far away. We are not told to teach this way. We are told to exhort one another to good works in the name of Jesus. To run the race with endurance. To hold fast to that which is good. To be holy. We wear HIS righteousness. Praise God in all things!

Put on the garment of praise
For the spirit of heaviness
Lift up your voice to God
Praise with the Spirit
And with understanding
Oh magnify the Lord

These messages will encourage the new believers. Seeing us bicker is what's dangerous.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Is that in scripture?

Exactly. I experience that verse daily. God continues to do His work in my life. Yes I respond but it's because of Him. I am too weak to love others like He loves. I am too selfish. But He puts His Spirit in me and then I am strong and have the love of Christ in me. I will burst if I don't express it! That's a work of God. I'm amazed at His faithfulness to me.

 

[chessman]

If someone was to ask the question, "how do you know your saved" - how would you answer?

I know I am saved because I have been given eternal life.

 

[GodsGrace]

Edited by Atonement:
Reason: Quoted the wrong post


ROFL ..... You must be new here...
I debated this topic for years on this very site with hundreds of different people. I still stand firm in my position! Because I refuse to indulge yet again in this conversation because it turns to another debate, you question my assurance?? You are full of tricks aren't you..

Atonement,
I am NOT full of tricks.
I was NOT questioning your salvation. I thought I made this very clear.
God can do that --- not me.

Re conversations turning into a debate. That's OK. Debates are OK. It's two opposing views. As long as conversations don't turn into arguments.

Now. Regarding the early church fathers.

I read what they taught. They were the closest to Jesus.
I respect what they taught and what they said.
I've heard it said that they were just men. But they were the men who put the bible together and kept the Christian faith alive until then and fought against all types of heresies.

I'm going to post what some of them thought about eternal salvation.
Ignatius of Antioch knew John and was taught by him.
Just as an example.

Here is what the ECF taught about eternal salvation:


While the Church Father’s did not agree on everything, when they speak with one voice on any particular subject I think wisdom dictates that we should listen and give their voice a great deal of weight.

Such is the subject of this post. It seems that in regards to the idea that once someone “believes unto salvation” that there is no chance they will not continue in that state to the end, our Father’s protest.

“We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.” ~ Barnabas (c. 70-130)

“For the Lord has sworn by His glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he will no be saved. For the repentance of the righteous has limits. Filled up are the days of repentance to all the saints. But to the unbeliever, repentance will be possible even to the last day… For the Lord has sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life to despair.” ~ Hermas (c. 150)

“I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e. the Mosaic Law], and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death – you will by no means be saved.” ~ Justin Martyr (c. 160)

“Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” ~ Irenaeus (c. 180)

“God had foreseen… that faith – even after baptism – would be endangered. He saw that most persons – after obtaining salvation – would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.” ~ Tertullian (c. 213)

“Certain ones of those [heretics] who hold different opinions misuse these passages. They essentially destroy free will be introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation and by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost.” ~ Origen (c. 225)

“Being a believing man, if you seek to live as the Gentiles do, the joys of the world remove you from the grace of Christ.” ~ Commodianus (c. 240)

“Let us press onward and labor, watching with our whole heart. Let us be steadfast with all endurance; let us keep the Lord’s commandments. Thereby, when that day of anger and vengeance comes, we may not be punished with the ungodly and the sinners. Rather, we may be honored with the righteous and with those who fear God.” ~ Cyprian (c. 250)

“As to one who again denies Christ, no special previous standing can be effective to him for salvation. For anyone of us will hold it necessary that whatever is the last thing to be found in a man in this respect, that is where he will be judged. All of those things that he has previously done are wiped away and obliterated.” ~ Treatise on Re-Baptism (c. 257)

“He put a seal upon him, for it is concealed as to who belong to the side of the devil and who to the side of Christ. For we do not know out of those who seem to stand whether they will fall or not. And of those who are down, it is uncertain whether they might rise.” ~ Victorinus (c. 280)

Et cetera, et cetera…

While they may disagree with one another on this point or that point, the one consistent theme which they seem to agree on is that even “after obtaining salvation” – as Tertullian puts it – one may be “disinherited by Him” (to quote Irenaeus) if they cease to be faithful (which is inextricably tied up to obedience according to Hebrews 4).

 

[GodsGrace]

hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

Hope everything is well over the waters.

It is my understanding that 2 Corinthians 5:21 states that our sin was imputed to Christ and his righteousness is imputed to us. Galatians 2:20 states " I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

Hi Dirtfarmer,
Bad winter, but all is well now.

I agree that our sin was imputed to Christ when He was on the cross.
He took all sins upon Himself. I believe that's when the Father abandoned Him because He could not be in the presence of sin and Jesus cried out: My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me? I know it's also verse 1 of Psalm 22, which goes on to glory.

But I do not believe God's righteousness is imputed to us.
I believe we must be righteous on our own behalf.
WITH THE HELP of the HOLY SPIRIT.

I read both 2 Corinthians 5:21 and Galatians 2:20.
I don't see our righteousness in God spoken of here.

2 Co 5:21 is saying that sin was imputed to Jesus. OK.
Galatians 2:20 is saying that we are living our life according to how Christ lived.
Not to please others because we want to be proud of ourselves.
It also says that the life we are living is lived by faith in the Son of God and that this is the life that Paul says to continue living.

So I guess we'd have to examine what this means.

If we continue with Ephesians 2:8 we get to Ephesians 2:10
We are created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

This is how I understand it.

Your sister in Christ



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[GodsGrace]

Is that in scripture?

Sure.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we deny HIM,
HE will also deny us.
Jesus Himself said this in Mathew 10:33

He can work in us AS LONG AS we ALLOW Him to.
If we fall away, how can He work in us?
2 Peter 2:20-22



.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually He did.....not just once but twice.....
John 3
15 That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Excuse me.
Then you DO agree with me?

For whoseover BELIEVES in Him (present tense)

IF we believe in Him at our time of death,
He will give us the eternal life for which we hoped.
Galatians 6:7-8
Mathew 25:46
Revelation 21:8



.

 

[GodsGrace]

yes, I was hoping someone would ask. lol YCLYSP You Can Lose Your Salvation Peeps. After I went to bed I thought a better one would be OSNAS. ;)

Actually Papa Zoom,
OSNAS is correct!

Wow. Everybody is starting to agree with me!!

Hebrews 6:4-6


.

 

[Atonement]

Debates are not okay.. Discussions are.. Debates have their place, but I don't debate anymore...

I'll have this discussion with Nathan when he post in Bible Study.. thx

 

[GodsGrace]

This is where I am as well. There are promises/claims make that God will keep us and complete the work in us. In the meantime, we are to pursue holiness, work out our salvation, run the race, and live lives worthy of our calling. I believe a Believer must endure to the end but I also believe they will by the power of God. God continues to work in my life and my attitude is to serve others (starting with family) in His name until my last breath. Part of that service is to spur others on to good works. I don't think about OSAS in my daily life. I think only on how I can serve others today (my kids at school, fellow teachers, family, community). God gifts each of us for works. We're to use those gifts. And Jesus is the example. Followers follow.

A HUGE part of our obligation is to each other as believers in Jesus. We're to encourage each other. I am not blessed by this discussion and doubt anyone is. I understand that people feel it important but some go too far. You have hit the nail and in one verse said it all. He will complete the good work He started in us. It's a promise. We walk in light of that truth.

I agree with all you've said PZ.

I've explained why I'm even here.
It has to be said though, that salvation can be lost.
NOT TO DISCOURAGE other believers.
But, maybe, to warn new ones because they hear this eternal salvation preaching so much nowadays??

I like John 13:35.
Always speak and act with love.


.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Wondering said:
Sure.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we deny HIM,
HE will also deny us.
Jesus Himself said this in Mathew 10:33

He can work in us AS LONG AS we ALLOW Him to.
If we fall away, how can He work in us?
2 Peter 2:20-22


2 Peter 2
20 For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog has turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
2 Timothy 2
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: KJ2000
No, nothing about allow here.

 

[GodsGrace]

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

We can know. And having life eternal means we have it now. Not will get it someday. Teaching others they can lose their salvation is to teach living in fear. Legalism is never far away. We are not told to teach this way. We are told to exhort one another to good works in the name of Jesus. To run the race with endurance. To hold fast to that which is good. To be holy. We wear HIS righteousness. Praise God in all things!

Put on the garment of praise
For the spirit of heaviness
Lift up your voice to God
Praise with the Spirit
And with understanding
Oh magnify the Lord

These messages will encourage the new believers. Seeing us bicker is what's dangerous.

Again I agree.

The Kingdom of God begins here and now.
In the Sermon on the Mount in Mathew 5, Jesus is telling us how our attitude should be if we are to be in the Kingdom NOW.

If we're in the Kingdom of God at our death, then it continues on to eternity.
Our eternal life begins now as long as we wish to remain in it.



.

 

[GodsGrace]

2 Peter 2
20 For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog has turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.2 Timothy 2
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: KJ2000
No, nothing about allow here.

Gosh CWB
Read it again...

It says that someone was lost
Then saved
Then lost again.

That person DID NOT ALLOW God to finish His work in that person.



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