John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[Jim Parker]

So you have attended 'most churches' then? If not it is best to not make generalizations about the way people practice.......

That would be most churches that I have attended and, from observation of the CHristians I have met, their churches as well.
No I have not made a scientific survey as have not you.

Then you are welcome to come visit mine anytime. You will find we don't go through rote, mechanisitic, ritualistic, and anachronistic forms of worship.

I bet you go through MODERN ritualistic rote forms of worship rather than what the original church did when they gathered on the Lord's Day. But you wouldn't know about that because you have not bothered to investigate that.
The original church did not meet to have a sing-along followed by a lecture with announcements and a collection inserted somewhere.
Words like "rote, mechanisitic, ritualistic, and anachronistic forms of worship" mark the lack of understanding of a person who is ignorant of the worship of the 1st century church.

You are the one who commented on the low standards of the church.......His church......not mine....not yours....His.

And you are the one who twisted my comments.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hmmmm.....I always thought the OT Jews were under the Law not Grace....silly me.....

The above is for Jethro.

But we ARE still under the Law.
Do you know which one??

 

[Jim Parker]

No, it is an response to what you truly believe.....otherwise you would not have commented so......

You have not made any comment which indicates you have any idea what I believe.
I certainly believe absolutely nothing that would justify the inquisition.
That was a cheap shot.

And you dodged answering my request to show from scripture where anyone was free to separate himself from the Church and reform it according to his own views.

 

[Jim Parker]

Oh, and BTW....it ain't mine....it's Gods.......

The word "your" refers to your copy of His word.

And still you dodge the challenge.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hmmmm.....I always thought the OT Jews were under the Law not Grace....silly me.....

So then, grace IS a license to worship other gods.
Surely you will pooh pooh that, but that is essentially what the argument you're defending amounts to.
Grace does not make it so we can forsake God in a return to our old lives of sin and God will not forsake us. That's would be making grace a license to sin, which is clearly condemned in scripture:

"4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:4 NASB)

 

[civilwarbuff]

The above is for Jethro.

But we ARE still under the Law.
Do you know which one??

Believers are under Grace, non-believers will be judged under the Law.....

 

[Jim Parker]

That's why I do not look so harsh on the OSAS believers.

Neither do I.
I do look harshly on the teaching.

But its also rampant in church's(I never liked using that word in this manner) that believe in full on loss of salvation. Look at the Catholic church for example.

The scripture teaches full loss of salvation. (Heb 6:4-6)

That doubt is what the Bible warns over and over about.

Scriptural references?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Please show me from your sola scriptura where it says that it is proper for any person or group of people to separate themselves from the Church which Jesus established on the day of Pentecost and to reform it according to their new winds of doctrine.

Just as soon as you can show it was set up just as Messiah wanted it to be...using scripture of course......

 

[Jim Parker]

But that is assuming that 'the church' was not corrupted by the devil CAUSING the division in the 1st place......

IS that your opinion; that the original church was corrupted by the devil?
Please give historical and scriptural support for that opinion.

 

[civilwarbuff]

The word "your" refers to your copy of His word.

It is still His word whether it is on paper or pixel......

 

[GodsGrace]

Believers are under Grace, non-believers will be judged under the Law.....

Believers are also under the Law.
The difference is that we have the Holy Spirit to help us to keep it.

We are under the Moral Law. Jesus did not abolish the Moral Law.
He left us with two commandments:
Mathew 22:37-39

If you notice, these two commandments cover all the others.
(the Decalogue)

Jesus did not say the Law was abolished.
He came to fulfill the Law. To make it complete. To eliminate the need for any further animal sacrifices.
Mathew 5:17-20

Non believers will not be judged by anything.
They are already judged.
We are born dead.




.

 

[civilwarbuff]

IS that your opinion; that the original church was corrupted by the devil?
Please give historical and scriptural support for that opinion.

If you want to go there, please start another thread on an appropriate forum; that is not a discussion for Theology.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Believers are also under the Law.
The difference is that we have the Holy Spirit to help us to keep it.

Please cite the scripture for that.....
Romans 6
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace.

Non believers will not be judged by anything.
They are already judged.
We are born dead.

Scripture for that?
1 Corinthians 9
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

 

[Jim Parker]

For most of that same 1500 years, a person could purchase indulgences and could not read the scripture in their native language. (Also just a fact.)

That is patently false and no t a fact.
It's the kind of lie I hear from ignorant, anti-RCC, religious bigots and it would be better for you not to repeat it. (No, I am not a member of the RCC)

The sale of indulgences was an error at the time of Father Martin Luther when the Pope commissioned Br. John Tetzel to solicit funds from the Germans for the building of St. Peter's Basilica.
The selling of indulgences was a rather recent error which development in the Roman church and Luther (15th century) was adamantly opposed to the practice. His opposition was made public by his nailing the 95 theses on the church door. (Such was the manner of challenging any and all to debate the theses so posted.)

The RCC relatively soon afterward quit trying to raise money for the basilica by "selling tickets to heaven" thus removing the offense.

Was the leadership of the RCC corrupt at that time.
You betcha.
Was that an excuse to leave Christ's church and start another "church" according to what somebody thought was good idea?
Not on your life.
Do all churches have problems from time to time with corrupt leadership?
Only those with human being in leadership positions.

The original indulgence had to do with a person who had been excommunicated and who desired to be reunited to the church. He might petition the bishop (the overseer of the local church) to be allowed to return based on his repentance. The Bishop could grant an indulgence based on the long term (years) demonstration of the person's serious intention to repent. He had to demonstrate his sincerity in a manner leaving no doubt whatsoever to his sincerity.

 

[Jim Parker]

If you want to go there, please start another thread on an appropriate forum; that is not a discussion for Theology.

It is you who initiated that diversion.
If you would like to discuss it then YOU go start another thread.

 

[civilwarbuff]

So then, grace IS a license to worship other gods.
Surely you will pooh pooh that, but that is essentially what the argument you're defending amounts to.
Grace does not make it so we can forsake God in a return to our old lives of sin and God will not forsake us. That's would be making grace a license to sin, which is clearly condemned in scripture:

"4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:4 NASB)

If you don't understand what I am saying at least ask for clarification instead of accusing me of giving license to worship other gods.....I believe that may be a violation of the ToS.

 

[Nathan]

Gentlemen/Laddies[]

I have no issues whatsoever with continuing on in this thread, but for the sake of really discussing this in depth, I am going to back out of this one and start the one in the Bible Study forum. This one is good, I still believe, but I cannot see going back and forth between the two. It would be very time consuming and redundant.

Your welcome to join in over there - obviously because I am not the ruler of CF.net and don't make the rules.

 

[civilwarbuff]

It is you who initiated that diversion.
If you would like to discuss it then YOU go start another thread.

Then I accept your declination....

 

[Jim Parker]

Just as soon as you can show it was set up just as Messiah wanted it to be...using scripture of course......

Ah, trying to dodge again.
The information would be HISTORICAL not scriptural as there is not a clear description of the liturgy in scripture.
It was my assumption that someone who identifies him/herself as "Civilwarbuff" would have a grasp of the importance of history.

From the church's historical documents:
That the early church had a developed liturgy by the second century is attested to by the statements of Justin Martyr.

Justin Martyr: (AD 100-165) The First Apology of Justin
Chapter LXVII.—Weekly Worship of the Christians.
…… (1) And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and
(2) the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits;
(3) then, when the reader has ceased, the president1 verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.
(4) Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended,
(5) bread and wine and water are brought, and the president1 in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and
(6) the people assent, saying Amen;
(7) and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, (the Eucharist) and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons………….

Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples,

(8) He (Jesus) taught them (the apostles & disciples) these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Justin described a gathering
(a) of the entire local church,
(b) at a place which would accommodate them,
(c) on Sunday.

He then described the process of the meeting which are easily identified as:

A. the Liturgy of the word
(1) The reading of the Gospels or Prophets
(2) The sermon
(3) The prayers of the people

B. The Liturgy of the Eucharist
(4) The consecration of the bread and wine (by the presider, AKA: "priest")
(5) The “great Amen”
(6) The people receive the Eucharist

The source of this form of liturgy: Justin stated that it was Jesus who taught this form of worship. Thus, Justin refuted the notion that the Mass was a later development.

What Justin describes is the basic format of the liturgy that is followed to this day in all Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Coptic and Assyrian Churches.

1. The “president” refers to the presiding presbyter or the overseer. The word “presbyter” or “elder” (presbuteros) has come down to us in modern English as “priest” and the word overseer (episcopos) has come down to us in English as “bishop.”

This is way off track.
Back to John 15:1-6 says you can loose your salvation.
Anyone???

 

[civilwarbuff]

Gentlemen/Laddies[]

I have no issues whatsoever with continuing on in this thread, but for the sake of really discussing this in depth, I am going to back out of this one and start the one in the Bible Study forum. This one is good, I still believe, but I cannot see going back and forth between the two. It would be very time consuming and redundant.

Your welcome to join in over there - obviously because I am not the ruler of CF.net and don't make the rules.

Please post a link here......