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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation
- Thread starter Jim Parker
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- Jul 13, 2012
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People who do not believe the truth were never “in Christ” to begin with.
John 15:1-6 is about people who are in Christ:
Some bear fruit and remain in Him.
Others are removed from being in Him.
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:12
He called them children at that point in time. The Israelites.
But those who couldn't believe in the truth were cut off.
“First let the children eat all they want,” he told her, “for it is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
I believe Jesus is capable of fulfilling His Fathers will. Does He not sit on Gods throne?
Yet here its written about the Fathers will.
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
- Jul 13, 2012
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Again, those in Christ, regardless of ethnicity, must remain in Christ.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Here is how this same Apostle John instructs us to remain in Christ.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
Keeping His commandments is the way we demonstrate our love for God and our neighbor.
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3
His commandments are not burdensome.
It's noted that those who say they know Him but don't keep His commandments are liars.
What I do know is Jesus stated its His Fathers will to lose none of all those the Father gives Him. I believe the one who sits on Gods throne will be faithful to His Fathers will and is capable just as God reserved 7000 for Himself who did not bow to baal.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Its also written
My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Born again is a judgment already made by God in your favor.
- Jul 13, 2012
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Of course God does not want to lose any of those who are in Christ, just as we know it’s God’s will not any should perish.
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
God’s desire is for all men to be saved.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4
The scriptures are clear about God loving people both saved and unsaved, and wanting them to have eternal life and not go to hell.
God loves all the people of the world.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2
Bruce.Leiter
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- Oct 12, 2024
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Psalm 81 is the OT background for Jesus' teaching; the vine of that Psalm is the whole people of God (Israel):
Psa 80:8 You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it.
Psa 80:9 You cleared the ground for it; it took deep root and filled the land.
Psa 80:10 The mountains were covered with its shade, the mighty cedars with its branches.
Psa 80:11 It sent out its branches to the sea and its shoots to the River.
Psa 80:12 Why then have you broken down its walls, so that all who pass along the way pluck its fruit?
Psa 80:13 The boar from the forest ravages it, and all that move in the field feed on it.
Psa 80:14 Turn again, O God of hosts! Look down from heaven, and see; have regard for this vine,
Psa 80:15 the stock that your right hand planted, and for the son whom you made strong for yourself.
This Psalm is the reason Jesus says he is the TRUE vine, and we are the branches. However, like Judas Iscariot, unbelievers are present within the people, who have to be pruned off.
- Jul 13, 2012
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Pruning is for the branches that are in Him that are indeed fruitful.
Pruning refers to removing stems off the branches that have just leaves and no flowers that will bud and produce fruit.
IOW, we only want the stems off the branches that are bearing fruit not leaves.
The shoots off the branches that are in the vine that are just growing leaves use up valuable nutrients that the fruit bearing stems need.
If you have grown tomatoes you understand what this means.
- every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-2
We are speaking of those God gave to Jesus its His will Jesus lose none of them but raise them up on the last day.
These are those Jesus calls His Sheep. He states they hear His voice that He knows them, and they follow Him. And He gives them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them from Him.
His sheep follow His voice.
Bruce.Leiter
Member
- Oct 12, 2024
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Besides Jesus' claim in John 15 that he is God with the Father ("I am"--Exodus 3), the background to his metaphor is Psalm 80, where God compares a vine to the whole people of Israel, of whom many are not real believers. Therefore, they are the branches that the Father prunes, as he has done in the desert after miraculously rescuing them from slavery in Egypt.
Jesus' comparison has nothing to do with losing our salvation but does give unbelievers within God's people his fair warning about their need to repent and trust in Jesus.
Psa 80:8 You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it.
Psa 80:9 You cleared the ground for it; it took deep root and filled the land.
Psa 80:10 The mountains were covered with its shade, the mighty cedars with its branches.
Psa 80:11 It sent out its branches to the sea and its shoots to the River.
Psa 80:12 Why then have you broken down its walls, so that all who pass along the way pluck its fruit?
Psa 80:13 The boar from the forest ravages it, and all that move in the field feed on it.
Psa 80:14 Turn again, O God of hosts! Look down from heaven, and see; have regard for this vine,
Psa 80:15 the stock that your right hand planted, and for the son whom you made strong for yourself.
Psa 80:16 They have burned it with fire; they have cut it down; may they perish at the rebuke of your face!
Jesus' comparison has nothing to do with losing our salvation but does give unbelievers within God's people his fair warning about their need to repent and trust in Jesus.
Psa 80:8 You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it.
Psa 80:9 You cleared the ground for it; it took deep root and filled the land.
Psa 80:10 The mountains were covered with its shade, the mighty cedars with its branches.
Psa 80:11 It sent out its branches to the sea and its shoots to the River.
Psa 80:12 Why then have you broken down its walls, so that all who pass along the way pluck its fruit?
Psa 80:13 The boar from the forest ravages it, and all that move in the field feed on it.
Psa 80:14 Turn again, O God of hosts! Look down from heaven, and see; have regard for this vine,
Psa 80:15 the stock that your right hand planted, and for the son whom you made strong for yourself.
Psa 80:16 They have burned it with fire; they have cut it down; may they perish at the rebuke of your face!
GodsGrace
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- Dec 26, 2015
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What Jesus states in John 15:1-6 is very plain and simple to understand.
Jesus does not mention anything about being saved, but He does warn about bearing fruit.
A warning usually has consequences...
especially when it's spoken from God.
John 15:1-6
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot * bear fruit of itself unless * it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless * you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing *.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
In verse 2 Jesus states that any branch IN HIM that does not bear fruit gets taken away.
In verse 5 Jesus explains HOW we are to bear much fruit.....by ABIDING in Him.
In verse 6 Jesus explains what happens to branches that DO NOT BEAR fruit.
It's very easy and simple to understand.
Jesus made everything easy to understand for those that wish to learn from Him.
Those that believe that OSAS is in the NT will find any way to explain away what Jesus taught.
GodsGrace
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Great post Randy!
Yes...if you follow the voice of Jesus you will be one of his sheep and you will be saved.
I presume you're quoting from
John 10:26-29
26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never * perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Please note:
Those that do not believe are not the sheep of Jesus.
Those that hear His voice and are His follow Him.
§These that follow Him are the ones to whom He gives eternal life.
Please not that all verbs are in the present tense....Jesus said THOSE THAT FOLLOW HIM....
Following Jesus is pivotal to being saved.
No one can remove us from the love of God.
Except, of course, ourselves.
We had free will to accept God before salvation,
and we have free will to abandon God after salvation.
We will be saved if we endure to the end.
Hebrews 3:14
14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
Matthew 24:13 Jesus said:
13But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Colossians 1:22
22He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith,
GodsGrace
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Correct.
Not only will God TAKE AWAY the branches that do not bear fruit....
He PRUNES the ones that DO bear fruit so that they can bear even MORE fruit !
Jesus taught obedience to God.
Jesus taught His followers to do good works/deeds.
It's a mystery to me as to why some fight against this.
Jesus said woe to the ones who lead some astray....
this is what OSAS does...
it leads some astray.
GodsGrace
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Jim Parker hasn't been posting for a very long times....years.
When he left he was OK.
It's nice that some old-timers, like you, are still posting!
Bruce.Leiter
Member
- Oct 12, 2024
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The background to this passage is Psalm 80:8-19, in which the "vine" is Israel. Jesus says that he is the "true" vine. The Old Testament describes two relationships or parts to the covenant, one with the whole nation of Israel and the other with individual believers. The vine is the people of God who are in Jesus in terms of his relationship with all of them, while the people who reject him are pruned from him. It doesn't have anything to do with losing our salvation:
Psa 80:8 You brought a vine out of Egypt; you drove out the nations and planted it.
Psa 80:9 You cleared the ground for it; it took deep root and filled the land.
Psa 80:10 The mountains were covered with its shade, the mighty cedars with its branches.
Psa 80:11 It sent out its branches to the sea and its shoots to the River.
Psa 80:12 Why then have you broken down its walls, so that all who pass along the way pluck its fruit?
Psa 80:13 The boar from the forest ravages it, and all that move in the field feed on it.
Psa 80:14 Turn again, O God of hosts! Look down from heaven, and see; have regard for this vine,
Psa 80:15 the stock that your right hand planted, and for the son whom you made strong for yourself.
Psa 80:16 They have burned it with fire; they have cut it down; may they perish at the rebuke of your face!
Psa 80:17 But let your hand be on the man of your right hand, the son of man whom you have made strong for yourself!
Psa 80:18 Then we shall not turn back from you; give us life, and we will call upon your name!
Psa 80:19 Restore us, O LORD God of hosts! Let your face shine, that we may be saved!
That "I" shall lose none...That's on Him not us. Care to Comment?
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
It is those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and obey Gods commandments. So, faith with the fruit of obedience.
What fulfills all the law? Paul wrote "Love"
In Christ there is no sin. Can one who has no sin be considered unrighteous in any manner?
Can't be deceived away. Do not continue to sin.
7My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish NO ONE will snatch them from my hand.
Some who claims to know Him but does not do what He says is a liar.
In the most sinful of environments.
Yet I will preserve 7,000 others in Israel who have never bowed down to Baal or kissed him!”
Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
A judgment already made as in appointed to eternal life.
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
All those the Father gives to Jesus He will raise on the last day.
I stating those born of God will love others. The fruit of obedience. They belong to God.
I'm not preaching OSAS. As its not directly taught in the NT. But I do consider what is in the NT.
Clearly many warnings are given. But grace is grace.
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If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Those who do not remain in Christ are no longer saved.
There is no salvation outside of Christ.
In Christ = saved
No longer in Christ = no longer saved
Here is how this same Apostle John instructs us to remain in Christ.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
Too bad, eh?
Yahweh Created Everything Simple; man came up with many devices (i.e. viewpoints). Many devices are distributed quite freely and very commonly on the internet/ forums/ everywhere? All contrary to Yahweh's View.
I have come to the conclusion that OSAS isn't taught but "GRACE" is taught.
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,
Those who don't abide in Him do not belong to Him. Those that do abide in Him demonstrate such proof by the fruit of obedience. A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit.
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many23And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.
GodsGrace
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If they above is correct...
could you please explain why Jesus said that the branches IN HIM will bear fruit?
What fruit?
In these chapters of John, including Chapter 15, Jesus is teaching his Apostles that He is going away and they cannot follow.
He's teaching the Apostles that He is going to prepare a place for them...
the after life.
He's saying that He and the Father are One.
Jesus tells them that they can do greater works than He has done.
He teaches them that if they love him, they will obey His commandments.
The Holy Spirit will be sent to help them....He repeats about His commandments having to be followed/kept.
Then Jesus goes on to say that He is the vine and that He expects the branches IN HIM to produce fruit.
It's certainly true that the NT is a continuation of the OT.
But I do believe Jesus knew what he meant to convey to The §Apostles and to His disciples.
I don't read any talk about nations or peoples in His teaching in John 15:1-6
Jesus most clearly states that those IN HIM are to produce good fruit.
He's speaking about ABIDING IN HIM.
You'll have to make the connection between what Jesus is saying here and Psalm 80.
Just stating it does not make it so.
In Matthew 5:20 Jesus tells His disciples that their righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees.
The OT ended with Jesus.
Salvation through any nation has ended.
Salvation is now, in the NC, through Christ, our adherence to the Kingdom rules, and our obedience to HIM.
THIS is how our righteousness is greater.
Love.
Heart obedience.
Abiding in Christ.
The dwelling of the Holy §Spirit.
Jesus was teaching New Covenant ideas.
The Mosaic §Covenant is no longer in effect.
Salvation is personal and through the Holy Spirit.
Jesus means what He stated in John 15:1-6
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