Bible Study Just What ARE Pentecostal "Tongues"?

[lecoop]

coop,

I always test the Spirit. Do you know how I do it? I look at their walk with the Lord if they are showing fruit of christianity by being godly. I am sorry they fail miserably in every which way. I tryed to convince you with my way but you did not listen. You make me sad.

Gingercat, I wish you would be more specific. For instance, what have you seen in "their" walk that makes you say "they" fail miserably in every which way.

Sorry, but "your way," is not in line with God's word. Am I to follow "your way," and not the word of God? Please, don't be sad on my account! I am full of joy!

Let me give a little example of how I view our discussions. This is just a "made up" story. Two people are standing back to back. One is looking at a beautiful sunset, and the other is peering into total darkness. One is a Christian, and the other is not. The Christian says, "I wish you look at this beautiful sunset. It is absolutely fabulous!"

The sinner says, "I like what I am looking at."
"But you are seeing nothing but blackness!"
"I like it. It is what I have chosen to see."
"But this sunset is so fantastic - the best I have ever seen!"
"I don't care about your sunset. I like what I am seeing."
"But you are not seeing anything!"
"Can't you understand that I am happy watching what I am watching?"
"ok. I will let you watch nothing, if that is what you choose."

Sinners just don't see what we see. They have been blinded by the great deceiver. They don't ever think of heaven or hell, and don't want to be reminded. Since we used to be as they are, we know what wonders there are for them, if we could just get them to take a peek at the goodness of Jesus. However, they want no part of Him.

In a small way, our discussions have been the same. Many years ago, I heard the gospel message of the baptism of the HS. I argued. I resisted. I used every scripture I knew to prove they were wrong. But one thing one of them said, I just had no argument for. He said, "if God has a gift for you, why in the world would you not want to receive it?" Why would you argue against it?

To tell the truth, I sensed in my spirit the very first service I attended at this certain pentecostal church, that they had something I did not have. I knew it - but then I was not sure what exactly it was. After months of arguing, I said to God, "if you do have a gift for me that I have been resisting, I repent. I want to have everything you have for me." At that time I did not understand Paul's exegesis of tongues. My arguments were very similar to yours, and others on this board. However, I just laid those arguments aside, and started seeking the Lord as I had never done before. I about two months, I received the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit, and I started speaking in tongues. My life changed greatly. My prayer life changed incredibly! I had always struggled with prayer before, but after, as soon as I would start to pray, it seemed that I was ushered right into the presence of God. From that day to this, I have never once regretted my decision to receive this great gift from God.

Now picture us standing back to back. I am seeing the wonderful gift of the baptism with the HS, and you are seeing church tradition. I know what you are seeing, because I have been there! However, I also know that you cannot see what I am seeing. I want so much for you to turn around and start looking, and seeking. But no, you are satisfied with what you are seeing.

My hope is that you will change, or failing that, that at least you will not be as the Pharisees, that not only refused to come in themselves - but blocked the way for others. Therefore, I pray that you will not be a stumbling block for others that want to receive everything that God has for them. Please read these scriptures over again, without your preconceived glasses on, and see that God has provided the anointing Holy Spirit for all believers.

Coop

 

[D46]

I attended one of these meetings once where people were getting 'slain in the spirit'. I was a much younger Christian and the offer was made by someone for prayer of some nature - I can't remember what it was and so I accepted by standing that I wanted someone to pray with me. As others were getting prayed for all around me the floor was littered with people who had been 'slain'. Come my turn and this guy put his hand on my forehead and started 'praying'. As he did he applied pressure to my head and was pushing me backwards. I was aware that someone had positioned themselves behind me - seemingly to catch me when I fell. I stepped back with one foot and braced myself. He pushed me harder so I looked this guy straight in the face and I waited for him to open his eyes - which he did of course - and when he did I said, "Don't push". That was it - he moved on.

Later, while having supper I confronted this guy (if I recall correctly he was some high flyer from the US) and I said to him, "If this was a work of the Holy Spirit, why did he have to push?"

His response? "The trouble is with you, you have a spirit of unbelief"

How many get sucked in by this nonsense? And where is the discernment as thousands, by the look of it, flock to these people to 'get a touch from the Lord'? Really they are just push-overs.

Unfortunately is sounds as though you got caught up with the modern day Pharisee's Charis-mania movement. This sort of trash is NOT of God. It's people such as this and those on TBN I mentioned that have forever tainted the true gift God offers. No one has to push you on the forehead or stomach so as to appear by their power, they have injected the power of God into you. I've never seen this in any Pentacostal church but, the first time I did see it was on TBN back in 1992 when Rod Parsley had an alter call and people were flocking down front. Parsley's mother was there and was laying hands on everyone within arms reach. I saw her literally push someone in the stomach twice to get them to fall back as there were "Holy Ghost catchers" behind her. They never did so she went to the next one after whispering something in their ear. This is NOT of God but for theatrical work only. May people of this sort be rewarded according to their deceitful ways. I believe in the power of God to do as he will, but; what they're practicing is for gain and not for the Kingdom of God.

 

[lecoop]

Re: To believe or not to believe............................

While the vast majority of the church sits in their respective pews, God is raising up an army for His last revival. Who will it be? For the most part, it will be those that speak in tongues.

You're coming pretty close to saying that 'tongue-speaking' is a salvation issue, coop. Are you saying this? If it isn't, then who should care whether one 'speaks in tongues' or not? If it ISN'T a salvation issue then it isn't even an issue ...right?

No, it is not a salvation issue - it is an anointing issue. Jesus did not start his ministry without it. Why should we? The baptism with the Holy Spirit is the anointing. Jesus said, "I am anointed..... ." When did he become anointed? When the Holy Spirit descended upon Him.

The above has nothing to do with speaking in tongues, coop, particularly those 'tongues' that we are discussing here.


Oh, contraire! It is just that you do not understand the connection. Jesus told them to wait until they receive the "power from on high." When the did receive this power, they received a mystery gift along with it: tongues." Paul describes these tongues at length, but many simply do not believe what Paul wrote. However, it is scripture, and profitable for doctrine. Another thing you do not understand, is that this power came "upon" rather than "in." It came upon, for it was the anointing, not regeneration.

So it is not a salvation issue.

There are an increasing number of Pentecostals today who are INDEED saying that 'speaking in tongues' is a salvation issue. Why do some say it is while others say it isn't?

There are much increasing numbers of Pentecostals period! They are the fasted growing part of the church! I know that some from this group have taught doctrines of demons, but this goes for many denominations. Some say it because they are confused. You and I both know that they are wrong.

Why did I say it would be those that speak in tongues? Because this comes with the anointing. It is an issue, because Jesus commanded that they (the 120) stay until they received it. It was not a suggestion. Today people aren't even looking for it.

'Fraid not, coop. Jesus commanded that they remain in Jerusalem for the arrival of 'the helper'. Why? Because Jesus had just told them prior to this particular scripture to preach the good news to all the world. In order to do so they would need the ability to preach the gospel in the tongues (languages) of other nations. This is what tongues were (are?) and the Pentecostal Church simply does not pass muster on this issue. As for 'praying in tongues' ...the Bible is silent on this. This is purely an invention of the charismatics to imply 'holiness'.

Again, you go out into left field with your understanding, for you do not believe what Paul wrote. Please read closely, without your preconceived glasses.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Please note carefully that this verse is describing "unknown tongues." Then notice how Paul describes them: "in the spirit he speaks..." Therefore, speaking in tongues is speaking "in the spirit." Paul is telling us how tongues are created. They come from the human spirit, and when spoken, they are then spoken "in the spirit." This would be as opposed to "in the flesh" or "with the mind." Also note that what is spoken is a mystery. Why? Because "no man understands." You always seem to forget this verse by the time you get down to verse 15. Remember then, "in the spirit" means to Paul, speaking in tongues.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Please note here that Paul "prays in an unknown tongue;" a phrase that you said was not in scripture. Then Paul says that when he is praying in a tongue, it is his spirit praying, and he does not understand what he is praying. Since Paul does not understand what he is praying, then he writes verse 15.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Some mistakenly think Paul is saying that he has somehow figured out how to pray with the spirit, and still understand what he is praying. However, this is impossible, for Paul just got through telling us that he cannot understand a prayer in or with the spirit. Therefore, Paul is writing about two separate kinds of prayers. One is a prayer in the spirit, where Paul cannot understand what he is praying, and the other is a prayer in Greek, where Paul understands perfectly. Please note here that Paul is talking about praying, and he is talking about praying in tongues - showing that your idea that the bible is silent about praying in tongues is bogus. It is right here in black and white.

Suppose I am a foreman and I am in charge of digging ditches. I have both Hispanics and English speaking people on my crew. I go out in the morning and tell them, "dig the ditch from this stake here, to that one over there," and I point to it. Then, I tell them the same thing in Spanish.

I go and report to my boss, the general contractor, and he asks, "what did you tell them?" I reply, "I gave them instructions in English and I gave them instructions in Spanish also."

Now, did I tell them in Spanish and English at the same time? Of course not! Please, be a man in understanding, and not a child. I stold them twice, once in Spanish and once in English. This is simple, if you read without preconceived ideas. Paul is speaking of two kinds of prayer; one kind of prayer in the spirit, in tongues, and with no understanding, and one kind of prayer in the flesh and with the mind, in the learned language. Paul is saying that he will do both kinds of praying.

To make sure the readers understand what he means by praying "with the spirit," Paul adds:

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Please note that Paul is still speaking of prayer. And again he defines a prayer "with the spirit" as a prayer in tongues. This should be very clear to you, since he says that the hearers don't understand what is being prayed.

Is "tongues" just languages as you say? If Paul meant earthly languages, then why would he say this? ( I have altered it slightly)

2 For he that speaketh in the Swahili tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

This would make no sense, no matter what language you plugged in. When someone travels to another land, and suppose they were "gifted" to suddenly speak in that language with no learning: why then would they be speaking to God, and not to man? Why would no man understand? Why would he be speaking a mystery? Would you speak for an hour to a crowd, when you did not have a clue what you were saying? I doubt that seriously! That is just silliness. Of course Paul is speaking of tongues as a language made up "on the spot" by the Holy Spirit.


Why would Paul say,

4 He that speaketh in the Tagalog tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. [Modified for emphasis]

Again, by plugging in any earthly language, this verse makes no sense. If God gifted me to speak in Tagalog, and I was preaching in it to those that understood, why would Paul say that I was edifying myself, but not the hearers? That is just silly!

5 I would that ye all spake in Manderin, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh in Manderin, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. [Modified for emphasis]

Paul's whole argument here, for many verses, has been contrasting prophecy (speaking supernaturally in the learned language) with tongues (speaking supernaturally in an unknown tongue). Why would Paul wish that we all spoke in Mandarin, (supposing that God would call us all to China) but then say that he would rather that we could speak in our own language? Would God take away our ability to speak English when we were gifted with Mandarin? Why would Paul say that the one speaking in the learned language was greater, unless the Mandarin speaker would interpret? Why would he have to interpret if the purpose was so that he could preach to the Chinese? This just gets sillier and sillier! Of course this all makes sense, if Paul was speaking of an unknown language, made up on the spot by the Holy Spirit.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

If God gifted us to speak Mandarin, wouldn't that be a great gift to the edifying of the Chinese church? However, if tongues were a made up language, made up on the spot by the Holy Spirit, then Paul makes a lot of sense. Gibberish does not edify the church, unless one interprets. Your idea gets more silly yet.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in the Manderin tongue pray that he may interpret. [Modified for emphasis]

If God blessed us with the ability to preach in Mandarin, so that we could preach to them in their own language, why then would we have to interpret? Can you see that this just gets more and more ludicrous? Of course, if Paul were speaking of a made up language, made up on the spot by the Holy Spirit, then this verse would make a lot of sense.

14 For if I pray in Czech, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. [Modified for emphasis]

Suppose God blessed someone with the ability to preach in the Czech language, and sent them there to pray for the Czech people. Suppose he is praying in front of a large local church there. Why would Paul say it is his spirit praying? Why would Paul say that he did not understand? Would God bless someone with a new language, and they then could speak it perfectly, but just one hang up - they couldn't understand a word they were saying! Would you pray a long prayer in front of a foreign church, and not have a clue what you were saying? I hardly think so. (This get more ludicrous with each verse.) Of course, if Paul were speaking of a made up language, made up on the spot by the Holy Spirit, in the spirit of the believer, then this verse would make a lot of sense.


I could go one with each verse, but I will stop punishing the readers. Paul tells us what tongues are. Let's just believe what he has told us. Therefore, your take on the tongues being spoken today around the world is simply in error.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

I attended one of these meetings once where people were getting 'slain in the spirit'. I was a much younger Christian and the offer was made by someone for prayer of some nature - I can't remember what it was and so I accepted by standing that I wanted someone to pray with me. As others were getting prayed for all around me the floor was littered with people who had been 'slain'. Come my turn and this guy put his hand on my forehead and started 'praying'. As he did he applied pressure to my head and was pushing me backwards. I was aware that someone had positioned themselves behind me - seemingly to catch me when I fell. I stepped back with one foot and braced myself. He pushed me harder so I looked this guy straight in the face and I waited for him to open his eyes - which he did of course - and when he did I said, "Don't push". That was it - he moved on.

Later, while having supper I confronted this guy (if I recall correctly he was some high flyer from the US) and I said to him, "If this was a work of the Holy Spirit, why did he have to push?"

His response? "The trouble is with you, you have a spirit of unbelief"

How many get sucked in by this nonsense? And where is the discernment as thousands, by the look of it, flock to these people to 'get a touch from the Lord'? Really they are just push-overs.

He he he! Pushovers! How funny!

The truth is, many times, it is the Holy Spirit doing the pushing, and the pray-er is just allowing the HS His will. I have stood up and I have fallen down. One can receive from God standing and one can receive from God laying down. However, I believe that sometimes (maybe not every time) people can step away from the anointing by stepping back. Many people find it hard to receive the anointing. I have heard speaker after speaker state that he or she felt the anointing leave their hands, and then jump right back, because the person being prayed for did not receive it. There are many reasons why the Holy Spirit would jump back. One is that people try to receive with head knowledge rather than heart faith. That is only one reason.

Coop

 

[D46]

The truth is, many times, it is the Holy Spirit doing the pushing, and the pray-er is just allowing the HS His will. I have stood up and I have fallen down. One can receive from God standing and one can receive from God laying down. However, I believe that sometimes (maybe not every time) people can step away from the anointing by stepping back. Many people find it hard to receive the anointing. I have heard speaker after speaker state that he or she felt the anointing leave their hands, and then jump right back, because the person being prayed for did not receive it. There are many reasons why the Holy Spirit would jump back. One is that people try to receive with head knowledge rather than heart faith. That is only one reason.

Coop

Are you a Benny Hinn proselyte? Have you ever seen a 900 ft. Jesus before? Benny has. :roll: Don't know what he was smoking but that's his claim. He likes using that word "anointing" like you.

 

[lecoop]

The truth is, many times, it is the Holy Spirit doing the pushing, and the pray-er is just allowing the HS His will. I have stood up and I have fallen down. One can receive from God standing and one can receive from God laying down. However, I believe that sometimes (maybe not every time) people can step away from the anointing by stepping back. Many people find it hard to receive the anointing. I have heard speaker after speaker state that he or she felt the anointing leave their hands, and then jump right back, because the person being prayed for did not receive it. There are many reasons why the Holy Spirit would jump back. One is that people try to receive with head knowledge rather than heart faith. That is only one reason.

Coop

Are you a Benny Hinn proselyte? Have you ever seen a 900 ft. Jesus before? Benny has. :roll: Don't know what he was smoking but that's his claim. He likes using that word "anointing" like you.

Luke 4
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

The anointing that came on Jesus is the same Holy Spirit that will come on us - if we believe.

Acts 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

I never want to be without it! No, I am not a follower of Benny Hinn, although I have been in some of his meetings. There is no doubt that Benny has made mistakes. Who hasn't? But we cannot look on his heart, nor see his intentions: only God can. Therefore, let's leave the judging up to God. If the anointing on Benny is truly the Holy Spirit, then I caution you on how you speak, for you will be speaking against the HS. On the other hand, if he is not anointed by the HS, you are safe. What you may not realize, is the HS will work through an imperfect vessel; else none of us would have a chance! I know this, for I of all people am not perfect. Yet I know that the Holy Spirit dwells in me, and is upon me.

Coop

 

[SputnikBoy]

Coop ...you're a wonderful spokesperson for the Pentecostal Church and you deserve an "A" for effort. The sad thing is that you are unwittingly supporting an ungodly practice that is based on misinterpretation and deception. NOTHING in 1 Corinthians - indeed the entire Bible - supports Pentecostal 'tongues'. You have become so thoroughly indoctrinated with this euphoric practice that you're hooked. It's purely psychological in nature as 'ex-'tongue-speakers' could attest. 'Tongue-speaking' is more difficult to give up than nicotine.

 

[D46]

I never want to be without it! No, I am not a follower of Benny Hinn, although I have been in some of his meetings. There is no doubt that Benny has made mistakes. Who hasn't? But we cannot look on his heart, nor see his intentions: only God can. Therefore, let's leave the judging up to God. If the anointing on Benny is truly the Holy Spirit, then I caution you on how you speak, for you will be speaking against the HS. On the other hand, if he is not anointed by the HS, you are safe. What you may not realize, is the HS will work through an imperfect vessel; else none of us would have a chance! I know this, for I of all people am not perfect. Yet I know that the Holy Spirit dwells in me, and is upon me.

Coop

Adolph Hitler made a big mistake too-want to exonerate him as well? Or perhaps, Pol Pot or Lenin? I don't have to see his heart when I hear the blasphemous things from his mouth. God indeed will be his judge and all others that follow this trickery. I'm talking about teaching people to speak in tongues as some have done, and the false healing and anointing he and others claim. Shoving someone backward for ANY reason, is not biblical. As for the gift of the Holy Ghost, I think I've made it perfectly clear what my stand is on that and that is not what's in question to me. It's charlatans that turn the word of God into a lie that burn me up! You can see my position on tongues here.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... sc&start=0

 

[SputnikBoy]

Gingercat, I wish you would be more specific. For instance, what have you seen in "their" walk that makes you say "they" fail miserably in every which way.

end of quote,

They don't know how to be kind to others. They are users instead of givers. They are interested in being wealthy instead of being His servant (they are greedy)

They are liars. If they are truly speaking language it should not be repetitive sentences. I have attended two of the tongue speaking churches and all they were doing was repeating the same words or sentences over and over.

The over all christian community is bad but tongue speaking and prosperity churches are the worst!!!!!

If you cannot see this kind of obvious evil, you are in pretty bad shape yourself spiritually. You cannot fool anyone but yourselvs.

It amazes me that so many people are following this kind of evil practice.

I don't know that 'tongues' are evil as such, gingercat, and I don't believe for one second that Coop and others are evil. On the contrary, I believe that many charismatics SINCERELY BELIEVE that 'their tongues' are of the Holy Spirit. Meaningless babble (which is all it is) can be and IS convincing to those who 'speak it' and they don't need to offer any explanations as to its authenticity. All they need say is that "it's of the Holy Spirit." They convince themselves of this all the time. The same is true of 'slaying in the Spirit', 'holy laughter' and other charismatic 'fads' that surface every now and again. Their explanation for these types of phenemenon? "It's of the Holy Spirit!" Once this is said no further explanation is necessary. For those who question it is to be relegated to the ranks of the 'non-believer' (??)

The 'charismatic Holy Spirit' seems to be more like a poltergiest who enjoys playing games with peoples' emotions. He isn't a serious Holy Spirit who manifests Himself in such a way that others will benefit from hearing the message of the gospel (as in scripture). He's a demonic little critter (it would seem) who enjoys pulling pranks on willing 'vessels' and making them (selfishly) 'feel good'. I believe that 'tongues' are more psychological in nature than evil per se. Then again . . .

Regardless of what you say, Coop ...I don't want ANY spirit taking over my mind. If I have to 'babble' uncontrollably with someone else 'pulling the strings' and doing the thinking for me then I most definitely don't want it. If I need to talk to God, then I can do so quite adequately speaking in a language that both God and I can understand. And, I TOO might get 'the warm and fuzzies' for having done so in MY OWN TONGUE. Why on earth do I need 'the experience' of babble in order to feel good?

 

[lecoop]

Coop ...you're a wonderful spokesperson for the Pentecostal Church and you deserve an "A" for effort. The sad thing is that you are unwittingly supporting an ungodly practice that is based on misinterpretation and deception. NOTHING in 1 Corinthians - indeed the entire Bible - supports Pentecostal 'tongues'. You have become so thoroughly indoctrinated with this euphoric practice that you're hooked. It's purely psychological in nature as 'ex-'tongue-speakers' could attest. 'Tongue-speaking' is more difficult to give up than nicotine.

Thank you for such a compliment! How kind of you. Now, about giving it up?

I am anointed to open the eyes of the blind, to preach deliverance to the captives, to preach the gospel to the poor! (this probably means prosperity!) I received this anointing when I was baptized with the Holy Spirit. Why should or would I give up this anointing? I want it and He wants me to have it! And the tongues that came with this anointing are just like frosting on cake, or syrup on pancakes. Did you just skip over those verses I just covered? The book of Acts and 1 Cor. 12 and 14 all support tongues. Tongues are scriptural, not psychological. You still have on your preconceived glasses! : -))

Why is it so hard for you to believe that the Holy Spirit can create a language on the spot?

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Gingercat, I wish you would be more specific. For instance, what have you seen in "their" walk that makes you say "they" fail miserably in every which way.

end of quote,

They don't know how to be kind to others. They are users instead of givers. They are interested in being wealthy instead of being His servant (they are greedy)

They are liars. If they are truly speaking language it should not be repetitive sentences. I have attended two of the tongue speaking churches and all they were doing was repeating the same words or sentences over and over.

The over all christian community is bad but tongue speaking and prosperity churches are the worst!!!!!

If you cannot see this kind of obvious evil, you are in pretty bad shape yourself spiritually. You cannot fool anyone but yourselvs.

It amazes me that so many people are following this kind of evil practice.

You remind me of a story I heard once.

A man was moving to another town. His first time there, he stopped and ask an older gentleman what kind of people lived there. The old gentleman ask, "well, what kind of people live around you now?"
The man answered that all of his neighbors were a pitiful bunch of low-lifes, without a penny amoung them.
The old gentleman answered, "Thee will find the same kind of people here."

A while later, this same thing was repeated, as another person was moving, and stopped to ask the old guy the same question.
Again, he asked, "what kind of people live around you now?"
This gentleman answered, "why, they are the greatest bunch of people I have ever had the chance to meet. I hate to move, but I am forced to.
The old man said, "don't worry, thee will find the same kind of people here!"
A young boy had been sitting there listening, and he asked the old man, "how can there be both kinds of people here?"
The old man answered, "the kind of people everywhere are only in the eyes of the beholder."


I probably have messed this up royally, but you get the idea. There are all kinds of people in every denomination. No one denomination has a "corner" on liars, or cheats. What is true, is that holiness churches tend to preach more on holiness, while Pentecostal churches tend to preach more on healing and ministering to the hurting. What ever part of the gospel people hear, that is what they will gain faith in, and that is what they will be living, because God said that faith comes by hearing.

Some Pentecostal churchs have of late realized that they have slacked off on teaching holiness, and have swung in that direction. In fact, holiness churches have started teaching more on Pentecost! God is bringing His church together. After all, we are all saved by the same blood; His blood! We are all baptized into the same body; His body.

In truth, each one of us will have our works tried by fire. It is up to us to see that we build on the foundation of Jesus Christ, with gold, silver and precious stones. Many Christians - even pastors - are doing good things, but if they are not doing what God has called them to do, it will all go up in a puff of smoke, no matter what denomination they are!

Many people are doing the right things, even what God has called them to do, but their motives are all wrong. As you mentioned, greed has got a firm hold on some in all denominations. I will agree with you that too many of them are pentecostal! Their whole aim is to bring in more money, All their work will go up in smoke, for it is only wood, hay and stubble.

Coop

 

[SputnikBoy]

I realize that many of my posts offer no scriptures. So, let us take a look at the most important ones that talk about this particular issue of 'tongues'.

In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul is talking about pursuing love, and desiring spiritual gifts, especially gifts of prophesy.

(v. 2) “For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the Spirit he speaks mysteries . . .â€Â

But, of course! He who speaks a ‘foreign language’ (a gift given BY the Holy Spirit) without someone to interpret, speaks to God (who CAN understand the foreign language because He’s God), for no one understands him (obviously, since no one is there to interpret the language); however, in the Spirit he (he who has received the gift of the Holy Spirit) speaks mysteries (again, obviously, because there is no one to translate the language).

If you’ve ever heard any language that is unfamiliar to your own, then you’ll understand what the last part of that text means. What a mystery that language is to you. ANYTHING we don't understand is a mystery.

And that is the correct definition of that scriptural text. It has nothing to do with anything other than ‘languages of the world’ and the correct interpreting of them. No ‘heavenly languages’, sad to say. If anyone still has a problem with that I’ll present the rest of the verses in Chapter 14 that pertain to this issue.

Before I do, though, I’d like to make a pertinent point. Based on the above text and that found in 1 Corinthians 13:1, 2 . . .

“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become as sounding brass or a clanging cymbal . . .†The reference to 'angels' is purely hyperbole and it is not intended by Paul that the listener place on it a literal meaning. So, we can dismiss 'the tongues of angels' right away as being hyperbole and not literal.

As the title of this thread implies ...there has arisen a doctrine of false ‘tongue-speaking’ in some - many - of the Pentecostal Churches. The pertinent point? All the ‘tongue-speaking’ of the charismatic church hinges on those TWO texts and interpreting them the way THEY want them to in order to support their practice! That's it!!

TONGUES MUST BE INTERPRETED

In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul keeps pushing the point (as he seems to do so well and so infuriatingly often) in regard to those who are speaking in foreign tongues without someone there to interpret. He goes on and on telling them to speak words easy to understand, “otherwise,†(he says) . . .

(v. 9) “how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.â€Â

Paul goes on, (v.10) “There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance.â€Â

(v.11) “Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.â€Â

(v. 12) “Even so you, since you are zealous for Spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church, that you seek to excel.â€Â

(v. 13) “Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.â€Â

(v. 14) “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit (small ‘s’ = the ‘inner me’ or even 'the breath') prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.â€Â

(v. 15) “What is the result then? I will pray with the spirit (small ‘s’), and I will pray with the understanding, I will sing with the spirit (small ‘s’), and I will also sing with the understanding.

(v. 16) “Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit (small ‘s’), how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen†at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?â€Â

(v. 17) “For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.â€Â

(v. 18) “I thank my God I speak with tongues (foreign languages) more than you all;

(v. 19) yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in a (foreign) tongue.â€Â

I realize that this IS Paul, perhaps the most notoriously confusing and controversial writer in the entire Bible, but the above really can’t be misinterpreted any other way than what it says. It IS quite clear! Paul is talking here in ALL instances about languages of the world.

I’d like to share a text with you pertaining to Paul. It also refers to others who distort the truth. It’s found in 2 Peter: 14-18

(v. 14) “therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;

(v. 15) and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation – as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,

(v. 16) as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.â€Â

(v. 17) “You therefore, beloved, since you know these things beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

(v. 18) but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.â€Â

Here’s another from 1 John: 4 . . .â€ÂBeloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.â€Â

I have been accused by some of being an unbeliever simply because I disagree with their interpretation of the scriptures. While I don’t have any desire to ‘speak ill’ of any individual on a Christian forum, it could well be that ‘speaking as of the devil’ could well apply to many areas of the charismatic church. If any of you who promote the use of tongues as some ‘heavenly language’ are not now at least questioning your belief, then I don’t know what else can be done.

As far as I know, I have presented all of the scriptures pertaining to the issue of ‘speaking in tongues’ as clearly and as simply as I can …devoid of the typical charismatic rhetoric that is generally only used as ‘red herrings’ anyway. If we’re to believe that Satan has a counterfeit for all of God’s gifts, then what is Satan’s counterfeit for ‘speaking in tongues’? I'm asking, not telling. I urge everyone who has an interest in this topic to search the scriptures again as I have myself in recent days.

 

[lecoop]

coop,

You asked me to be specific and I was, and you are criciticizing what you asked.

I make judgement with over all discernment. The Bible tells us to not to have anything to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness. Why do you think the Bitble is saying it? I am just practicing what the Bible is telling me to do. I discern that tongue speaking churches are fruitless in their practices.

Yes, I asked, and thanks for answering. I am amazed at how you see the world, and fellow brothers and sisters in Christ in particular. But then, I have never been to visit these particular churches. I know of one tiny Pentecostal church in Traverse City Michigan. I met a native American boy, maybe 15 years old, and took him to that church. They all seemed very friendly towards him while I was there. (It was the only time I ever visited that church.) However, the next week, he was treated very differently, and very unfriendly, and so, did not go back. They missed God. I can see why that church had maybe 20 people attending.

This type of behavior is not associated with Pentecostals alone. I know of a Methodist church here in Tulsa that the average age of those attending is about 80 years old! They too are down to just a few, and no kids at all. What a pity!
Coop

 

[lecoop]

I realize that many of my posts offer no scriptures. So, let us take a look at the most important ones that talk about this particular issue of 'tongues'.

In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul is talking about pursuing love, and desiring spiritual gifts, especially gifts of prophesy.

(v. 2) “For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the Spirit he speaks mysteries . . .â€Â

But, of course! He who speaks a ‘foreign language’ (a gift given BY the Holy Spirit) without someone to interpret, speaks to God (who CAN understand the foreign language because He’s God), for no one understands him (obviously, since no one is there to interpret the language); however, in the Spirit he (he who has received the gift of the Holy Spirit) speaks mysteries (again, obviously, because there is no one to translate the language).

If you’ve ever heard any language that is unfamiliar to your own, then you’ll understand what the last part of that text means. What a mystery that language is to you. ANYTHING we don't understand is a mystery.

And that is the correct definition of that scriptural text. It has nothing to do with anything other than ‘languages of the world’ and the correct interpreting of them. No ‘heavenly languages’, sad to say. If anyone still has a problem with that I’ll present the rest of the verses in Chapter 14 that pertain to this issue.

Before I do, though, I’d like to make a pertinent point. Based on the above text and that found in 1 Corinthians 13:1, 2 . . .

“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become as sounding brass or a clanging cymbal . . .†The reference to 'angels' is purely hyperbole and it is not intended by Paul that the listener place on it a literal meaning. So, we can dismiss 'the tongues of angels' right away as being hyperbole and not literal.

As the title of this thread implies ...there has arisen a doctrine of false ‘tongue-speaking’ in some - many - of the Pentecostal Churches. The pertinent point? All the ‘tongue-speaking’ of the charismatic church hinges on those TWO texts and interpreting them the way THEY want them to in order to support their practice! That's it!!

TONGUES MUST BE INTERPRETED

In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul keeps pushing the point (as he seems to do so well and so infuriatingly often) in regard to those who are speaking in foreign tongues without someone there to interpret. He goes on and on telling them to speak words easy to understand, “otherwise,†(he says) . . .

(v. 9) “how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.â€Â

Paul goes on, (v.10) “There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance.â€Â

(v.11) “Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.â€Â

(v. 12) “Even so you, since you are zealous for Spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church, that you seek to excel.â€Â

(v. 13) “Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.â€Â

(v. 14) “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit (small ‘s’ = the ‘inner me’ or even 'the breath') prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.â€Â

(v. 15) “What is the result then? I will pray with the spirit (small ‘s’), and I will pray with the understanding, I will sing with the spirit (small ‘s’), and I will also sing with the understanding.

(v. 16) “Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit (small ‘s’), how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen†at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?â€Â

(v. 17) “For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.â€Â

(v. 18) “I thank my God I speak with tongues (foreign languages) more than you all;

(v. 19) yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in a (foreign) tongue.â€Â

I realize that this IS Paul, perhaps the most notoriously confusing and controversial writer in the entire Bible, but the above really can’t be misinterpreted any other way than what it says. It IS quite clear! Paul is talking here in ALL instances about languages of the world.

I’d like to share a text with you pertaining to Paul. It also refers to others who distort the truth. It’s found in 2 Peter: 14-18

(v. 14) “therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;

(v. 15) and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation – as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,

(v. 16) as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.â€Â

(v. 17) “You therefore, beloved, since you know these things beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

(v. 18) but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.â€Â

Here’s another from 1 John: 4 . . .â€ÂBeloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.â€Â

I have been accused by some of being an unbeliever simply because I disagree with their interpretation of the scriptures. While I don’t have any desire to ‘speak ill’ of any individual on a Christian forum, it could well be that ‘speaking as of the devil’ could well apply to many areas of the charismatic church. If any of you who promote the use of tongues as some ‘heavenly language’ are not now at least questioning your belief, then I don’t know what else can be done.

As far as I know, I have presented all of the scriptures pertaining to the issue of ‘speaking in tongues’ as clearly and as simply as I can …devoid of the typical charismatic rhetoric that is generally only used as ‘red herrings’ anyway. If we’re to believe that Satan has a counterfeit for all of God’s gifts, then what is Satan’s counterfeit for ‘speaking in tongues’? I'm asking, not telling. I urge everyone who has an interest in this topic to search the scriptures again as I have myself in recent days.

Nice try, SpitnikBoy, but as I showed in a previous post, these verses become silly and ludicrous if you try to make tongues an earthly language. And you did not even venture to explain the part of tongues coming from the spirit of the man, and the person speaking not even knowing what they were saying! So you are telling us that you would preach for an hour to a foreign audience (supposing you were blessed with languages) and all the while not having a clue what you are saying? Somehow, I doubt that.

Coop

 

[BradtheImpaler]

There is nothing miraculous about someone seeking to speak in gibberish and then accomplishing that. It is not even an accomplishment, let alone a miracle.

Now let me ask you again if you believe there are both genuine and false manifestations of the gift of tongues today?

You are operating on a HUGE assumption - that what happens in your circles has to be the same thing as happened in the NT.

The bible calls it faith. Go ahead and be a pharisee. It is your choice! Allocate the work of the HS to something else

The scripture says that the Pharisee's were confronted with REAL miracles, which they could not deny, and so attributed these works to a demonic power. That is not the situation here because you don't have real miracles. I don't have to attribute a supernatural manifestation to some supernatural source (other than God) because you have no evidence it is supernatural to begin with. It is very easily explained NATURALLY.

Ironically, it is not me allocating the work of the HS to something else here, it is a case of YOU allocating something else to the work of the HS.

One thing is for sure, unless you change, you will never receive the baptism with the HS, and you will never speak in tongues

I HAVE had the same experience you refer to, but I no longer believe it was supernatural. Unless what the tongues - speaker speaks in can be verified as a real language which he did not previously speak, there is no evidence that what has occurred is anything more than a psychological jumbling of syllables in his own native tongue. This simple fact still eludes you. You cannot claim the miraculous unless there is EVIDENCE it is truly miraculous. Do you watch David Copperfield and swear that his "magic" is truly supernatural? I suppose you must, because what he does is a lot more impressive than what goes on in your church, yet we know that his tricks are only tricks after all, don't we?

And you never answered the question - do you believe that some of the tongues manifested in Pentecostal circles is fake? There is a reason I ask and I suspect you know where the question is leading?

 

[lecoop]

There is nothing miraculous about someone seeking to speak in gibberish and then accomplishing that. It is not even an accomplishment, let alone a miracle.

Now let me ask you again if you believe there are both genuine and false manifestations of the gift of tongues today?

You are operating on a HUGE assumption - that what happens in your circles has to be the same thing as happened in the NT.

The bible calls it faith. Go ahead and be a pharisee. It is your choice! Allocate the work of the HS to something else

The scripture says that the Pharisee's were confronted with REAL miracles, which they could not deny, and so attributed these works to a demonic power. That is not the situation here because you don't have real miracles. I don't have to attribute a supernatural manifestation to some supernatural source (other than God) because you have no evidence it is supernatural to begin with. It is very easily explained NATURALLY.

Ironically, it is not me allocating the work of the HS to something else here, it is a case of YOU allocating something else to the work of the HS.

[quote:00c76]One thing is for sure, unless you change, you will never receive the baptism with the HS, and you will never speak in tongues

I HAVE had the same experience you refer to, but I no longer believe it was supernatural. Unless what the tongues - speaker speaks in can be verified as a real language which he did not previously speak, there is no evidence that what has occurred is anything more than a psychological jumbling of syllables in his own native tongue. This simple fact still eludes you. You cannot claim the miraculous unless there is EVIDENCE it is truly miraculous. Do you watch David Copperfield and swear that his "magic" is truly supernatural? I suppose you must, because what he does is a lot more impressive than what goes on in your church, yet we know that his tricks are only tricks after all, don't we?

And you never answered the question - do you believe that some of the tongues manifested in Pentecostal circles is fake? There is a reason I ask and I suspect you know where the question is leading?[/quote:00c76]

You did not ask this same question. This time you added "Pentecostal circles." The answer is no. I can only answer from the "circles" that I have been exposed to. I have been to several Assembly of God churches, and several W of Faith churches. I believe that all tongues where I have been are supernatural, created by the HS, passed to the human spirit, and spoken out.

There is simply no "proof" one way or the other to know where tongues come from, as we cannot see into the spiritual realm. You think they are just made up. I do too, but I think it is the Holy Spirit that does it, for that is what the bible tells us. There is no way to know, except by faith. I believe. That is all that is necessary for me. It is between you and God whether or not you believe His word. Not only did I believe, but I also received. One will not receive tongues without faith, nor anything else from God. Now, if you get off into cults, the HS is not operating there, so whatever they do has some other source.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

BradtheImpaler, gingercat, SputnikBoy, mutzrein and readers, I have a question, related to BradtheImpaler's last post. I will address it to BradtheImpaler, but anyone can answer.

BradtheImpaler, how do you know that you are born again? (I am assuming you are.) What ever you looked like before, you look the same after. You cannot see any physical changes after you are born again, as compared to before. How then, do you [or anyone else] know that you have been born again - changed on the inside to a new creation? Perhaps we are all operating on a HUGE assumption.

Coop

 

[BradtheImpaler]

BradtheImpaler, how do you know that you are born again? (I am assuming you are.) What ever you looked like before, you look the same after. You cannot see any physical changes after you are born again, as compared to before. How then, do you [or anyone else] know that you have been born again - changed on the inside to a new creation? Perhaps we are all operating on a HUGE assumption.

Very distinct possibility - it is all subjective, but here's a big clue to what really seems to be going on...

When believers today claim to have the power that they (supposedly) had in the bible but obviously don't, the whole thing becomes suspect. Jesus said the church would continue to have this power, but the church of Acts exists only in story. What are we to conclude? What is reasonable to conclude?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

You did not ask this same question. This time you added "Pentecostal circles."

Same question slightly different wording.

The answer is no. I can only answer from the "circles" that I have been exposed to. I have been to several Assembly of God churches, and several W of Faith churches. I believe that all tongues where I have been are supernatural, created by the HS, passed to the human spirit, and spoken out.

There is simply no "proof" one way or the other to know where tongues come from, as we cannot see into the spiritual realm. You think they are just made up. I do too, but I think it is the Holy Spirit that does it, for that is what the bible tells us. There is no way to know, except by faith. I believe. That is all that is necessary for me. It is between you and God whether or not you believe His word. Not only did I believe, but I also received. One will not receive tongues without faith, nor anything else from God. Now, if you get off into cults, the HS is not operating there, so whatever they do has some other source.

Do you assume that everything is supernatural unless there is evidence it isn't? That is a mild form of insanity. If I showed you a card trick would you assume it was a miracle, or would you assume it was a trick? Or would you say, "there is no way to know"? Certainly there is a way to know. It has to be researched, tested, evaluated. That is the only way we can know what is true or not in the real world.

But now you do believe that there are false tongues, according to your last statement about cults. Here is the 2nd part of my question...

If someone who spoke in a false tongue, like you referred to, a person you did not know was from a cult, attended one of your meetings and spoke in that tongue, would you think it was the HS? Wouldn't you just assume and accept, by faith, that it was? If so you would be wrong of course, and the bottom line reason is because YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE SAYING. Because you don't understand what they're saying means you don't know whether they're blessing God, cursing God, or just babbling incoherently. I strongly believe the 3rd possibility is correct, but in any case, because you don't know what is being said, how can you praise God for this manifestation? It is of no value unless it is able to be verified and translated.

 

[Imagican]

When one considers that the Bible plainly states 'as the Spirit gave utterance', for one to create their 'own' tongues mimicking those offer by THE SPIRIT, one is capable of quickly coming to the conclusion that these 'other' tongues must be inspired by some 'other spirit'. Either they are true tongues or they are not.

The easiest way to discern is read the Bible. Do these tongues conform to the teachings or guidelines concerning their use. I contend that if they don't then they CAN'T be the true tongues refereed to in the Bible. They are then something 'other' than the tongues offered by the HOLY SPIRIT and must come from some 'other' spirit and I only know of one other spirit that would even have a reason to perpetuate this behavior.