Justification and Sanctification

[GodsGrace]

i agree with this post my only problem with roman 2 of the obey and doing good. or should i say the question i ask.. do we have to work to be saved? or is peter wrong in saying it is kept by the power of God(our salvation .. i am not a over zealous grace person or works.. it is my point if we go saying obey and do good. that can lead to a work based salvation,that seems to be the direction jlb is going . i dont preach or teach eternal security nor do i teach/preach you can walk away from salvation . my reason i looked at scriptures on both sides of the fence . my ordination is general baptist they believe you can walk away . i have also looked at the southern baptist belief. what i can not go along with is works to keep us saved. yes we have responsibility . yes good works follow salvation as you pointed out ,
works has it place we do good because we want to please the Lord. i by far do not want this to be a i have a more perfect doctrine.

Ezra, It cannot lead to a works based salvation because not amount of works can save us.

AFTER we are saved we are required to serve God and not to serve the enemy.
Before salvation we are ALL serving the enemy. Even those of us who believe we are doing good, because it is the heart that has not changed and our "direction" which has not changed.

And if we serving satan before, is it not proper to serve God now?
Our working for God, whatever that work may be, is a sign and a confirmation of our salvation. Without works we have a dead faith. A faith that is of no good to anyone. This is what James says.
James 2:17

Of what value if our faith if we do nothing for our God?
Jesus did leave us with some commandments to follow.

 

[GodsGrace]

How can there be any problem with logic?? Something is either logical, or illogical. And what I gave was 10 verses about how to have eternal life. Straightforward.


Whoever says lifestyle/actions are "irrelevant"?? They sure aren't. But the point is simple. One is saved by faith in the FINISHED work of Christ. Isn't it obvious that if one's actions/lifestyle were necessary (relevant) for salvation, then Christ's work wasn't ENOUGH and God requires MORE than what Jesus did.

How could any believer think that?


Yes, of course such a view makes no sense. Because it isn't taught in Scripture. So it's neither Scriptural or logical.


No, the 10 verses I have given tell us quite clearly how to have (possess) eternal life.

But it seems your view is different from what Jesus said.


No, to get it means to believe in it. The 10 verses I provided say so in clear, plain words.


Forum rules require providing Scriptural support for one's claims. Where are yours?


Do you not understand what intellectual assent means? It means to acknowledge as truth. It doesn't mean a passing nod, as it seems you're insinuating.


I surely know what the Scriptures teach about having eternal life. And I shared many verses that say so clearly. Maybe instead of disagreeing with me, there is disagreement with what Scripture says.


It seems your "discernment" is quite faulty. What I strongly disagree with regarding your view is that one's own works/lifestyle/actions are necessary/relevant in order to be saved.

That, my friend, is an afront to the Lord Jesus Christ. He did it ALL. There is absolutely NOTHING anyone can add to the FINISHED work of Christ in order to be saved. It is quite sad that so many think otherwise.


He does, far above my ability to comprehend.


But such a "reality" is in reality, not the reality of the Bible. Which I've shown from Scripture.


Again, what I am strongly opposed to in your view is the notion that Christ's works isn't FINISHED, and man must contribute his own works, also called actions/lifestyle in order to be saved.

For me, that is heresy and blasphemy against the FINISHED work of Christ, who died and and PAID FOR all my sins on the cross.

The ONLY WAY to be saved is to trust in the FINISHED work of Christ and Him alone.

If one has always thought that their own works/actions/lifestyle were necessary in order to be saved, along with faith in Christ, I would argue that salvation is not in that view.

Because grace and works are diametrically opposed. They NEVER go together.

Just regarding the first paragraph.
MOST persons believe our faith IS illogical.
Just saying...

 

[PeterJens]

How can there be any problem with logic?? Something is either logical, or illogical. And what I gave was 10 verses about how to have eternal life. Straightforward.


Whoever says lifestyle/actions are "irrelevant"?? They sure aren't. But the point is simple. One is saved by faith in the FINISHED work of Christ. Isn't it obvious that if one's actions/lifestyle were necessary (relevant) for salvation, then Christ's work wasn't ENOUGH and God requires MORE than what Jesus did.

How could any believer think that?


Yes, of course such a view makes no sense. Because it isn't taught in Scripture. So it's neither Scriptural or logical.


No, the 10 verses I have given tell us quite clearly how to have (possess) eternal life.

But it seems your view is different from what Jesus said.


No, to get it means to believe in it. The 10 verses I provided say so in clear, plain words.


Forum rules require providing Scriptural support for one's claims. Where are yours?


Do you not understand what intellectual assent means? It means to acknowledge as truth. It doesn't mean a passing nod, as it seems you're insinuating.


I surely know what the Scriptures teach about having eternal life. And I shared many verses that say so clearly. Maybe instead of disagreeing with me, there is disagreement with what Scripture says.


It seems your "discernment" is quite faulty. What I strongly disagree with regarding your view is that one's own works/lifestyle/actions are necessary/relevant in order to be saved.

That, my friend, is an afront to the Lord Jesus Christ. He did it ALL. There is absolutely NOTHING anyone can add to the FINISHED work of Christ in order to be saved. It is quite sad that so many think otherwise.


He does, far above my ability to comprehend.


But such a "reality" is in reality, not the reality of the Bible. Which I've shown from Scripture.


Again, what I am strongly opposed to in your view is the notion that Christ's works isn't FINISHED, and man must contribute his own works, also called actions/lifestyle in order to be saved.

For me, that is heresy and blasphemy against the FINISHED work of Christ, who died and and PAID FOR all my sins on the cross.

The ONLY WAY to be saved is to trust in the FINISHED work of Christ and Him alone.

If one has always thought that their own works/actions/lifestyle were necessary in order to be saved, along with faith in Christ, I would argue that salvation is not in that view.

Because grace and works are diametrically opposed. They NEVER go together.

My friend, "heresy" "blasphemy". I do not know how your mind thinks, but I am simply saying
we become children of God and walk in His ways. You seem to want to deny this, which is fine
by me, and thats where it ends.

John says it like this

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
2 John 1:6

Now the phrase to walk in love, is what Jesus says, Moses says, Paul says, John says etc.
I see many cannot face this, which is I suspect the real issue.
One ex-missionary called this a sugar coated gospel, as if love is a secondary issue, a distraction to belief,
and a way of corrupting people. But ofcourse love causes us to become real, and to change which is the
point of knowing God, which makes me wonder how many wear the trappings of faith, yet do not have its
essence.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering I simply loved what you wrote! Amen! Amen! You and JLB should be teaching from the pulpit!
Because it was drilled so deep into the psyche of believers that once you believe you're covered for eternity, they refuse to see deeper truth of the message---No grace without obedience. I fully endorse the view you put forward. I would rather believe what the early Church teachers taught rather than what is being taught today--- which I unfortunately believe is heresy--- and therefore extremely dangerous, even lethal. It's serving the devil as much it's serving the Lord, perhaps more!--- since its producing fruitless Christians who only think about their own guaranteed salvation. It's even more important to wake up fellow believers to the TRUTH of the Bible as you and JLB have cited---- since the world is coming to an end. In my humble opinion, you guys (JLB, Wondering Johan, and some others too) got the message correctly. I would love for all to understand that it's very very important to keep Lord's commands until the end. At least give your best. I DONT Say that good works save. But I also believe that Faith without obedeince is like a tree which can bear no fruit. And Jesus tells us what Father God will do with the trees which bear no fruit.
I accept everything written in the Word and based on what was written I strongly urge brothers and sisters to keep the commands and follow the Lord diligently and stop craving salvation. Crave MORE to ABIDE in the Lord Jesus. And HOW does one abide in Christ? By following Him and keeping His commands----especially of loving all. I will now be providing links to some iconic Christian pastors who realized the importance of obedience is directly connected with salvation. And they are now boldly teaching that "Faith without works is dead" doctrine. Please, look for my further posts. If I were quoting heresy why would I implore all to diligently follow the Lord's commands? I say it because it's written all over the NT. I would, therefore, request all Christian brothers, and sisters to keep reminding themselves the same ----- Faith without obedience is dead. And this reminder will galvanize us the soldiers of the kingdom into action. And help us become fruitful

There are many problems in the church today. Perhaps because pastors do not teach the truth. Perhaps because people do not want to hear the truth and so pastors want to say what itches the ear.
1 Timothy 4:1
2 Timothy 4:3

The bible cleary states that we will be judged by our works.
John 5:28-29
John 15:1-6

John 15 clearly says that if one does not ABIDE in Christ, he will be thrown away as a branch, dries up, gathered, and burned.
John 15:6

John 5:28-29 clearly says that we will be judged by our works. Either to eternal life or to damnation.

Jesus HIMSELF is saying these words.
If we do not believe JESUS Himself, who will we believe??
Those who prefer to believe a pastor that is not following biblical truths instead of Jesus Himself, upon whom their salvation is based, are truly blinded.

 

[JLB]

I'm just sorry that my posts aren't being understood. But they are clear enough.

Believers who don't understand the need for fellowship cannot possibly grow up in their salvation.

The branch that is in the vine is in relationship to the vine.

Without being in the Vine in relationship, it would die.

JLB

 

[PeterJens]

I do wonder about something.
I am accused of being heretical and blasphemous yet what crime have I committed?
Maybe loving people? Odd that, because that is what Jesus did and is the sign of
His true followers, Halleluyah, Praise the Lord
By the way I am saved by faith to walk in good works.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
not by works, so that no one can boast.
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Eph 2:8-10

If I express this in one way, I am ok, in another and I am terrible. But the meaning is the same.

 

[GodsGrace]

How come none of these verses do not say it is Christians that God will Judge, but it is yourself that does?

I find it incredible to read along.
Why should we even mention that Christians will be judged??

In John 15:5-6 Jesus plainly says ANYONE who does not ABIDE in me is thrown away.

ANYONE means ANYONE.
Are you saying that only non-saved persons will be judged?
WHY?
Are unsaved persons ABIDING in Christ???

This is simple English.
Because you like to be sure of your salvation, not only today, but up to the day you die, that does not mean you can mis-understand simple words and then make a doctrine around your misunderstaning.

Jesus was clear.
He spoke clearly.
He died on the cross so we could understand Him.
Not so we could NOT understand Him.

 

[JLB]

Good grief! All this flip flopping gets dizzying. Apparently your views are rather fluid. Which is why it's been so difficult to even try to have a meaningful conversation with you. You're making it way harder than it needs to be.

No flip flopping here.

Eternal life is for those who by patient continuance in doing good, seek for honor and immortality.

Nothing you have said will change this truth.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Why aren't the very words of your Lord and Savior enough?

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish (John 10:28). It could not have been stated any more clearly than that.

We know that eternal life is given when one believes, because of these verses:
John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-27, 20:31, 1 Tim 1:16, 1 John 5:13.

Therefore, from the MOMENT one has believed, they shall never perish.

Yet, you've claimed that there isn't anything in the NT that "absolutely guarantees your salvation". Well, Jesus did just that.

This is a matter of FAITH. Do you really believe what Jesus said, or not?

I DO believe the words of Jesus.
He said that IF I ABIDE in Him, I will have eternal life.
Abide means to live with. If I live with Christ all my life, THEN I will inherit eternal life. I like to use only Jesus' words.

Paul was far too cerebral and we like to mix up what he said, even though he agreed with his Savior.

We should agree with our Savior too.
After all, it is HE who is saving us.
IF WE ABIDE IN HIM.

 

[GodsGrace]

No flip flopping here.

Eternal is for those who by patient continuance in doing good, seek for honor and immortality.

Nothing you have said will change this truth.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

JLB

"Like"

 

[GodsGrace]

I do wonder about something.
I am accused of being heretical and blasphemous yet what crime have I committed?
Maybe loving people? Odd that, because that is what Jesus did and is the sign of
His true followers, Halleluyah, Praise the Lord
By the way I am saved by faith to walk in good works.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
not by works, so that no one can boast.
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Eph 2:8-10

If I express this in one way, I am ok, in another and I am terrible. But the meaning is the same.

 

[PeterJens]

I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.
So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.
I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
Rev 2:21-23

The above passage is written to a church Thyatira.
Jesus is saying the people have to repent of their immorality, or they will have the children struck dead.
That is real judgement, of believers, where deeds are being weighed.

To him who overcomes and does my will to the end,
Rev 2:26

So disobey, death comes with judgement, overcome and do not believe the heresies, rule with authority later.
Now this is not exactly the picture we are being painted of how God works with His people.
Do we believe Jesus and His word, or peoples ideas?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

As a side note, if it a crazy thing to want to repent and obey, causes people to fall over, why did Jesus
call people to repent?
Yes , mere faith
unless you repent, you too will all perish
Luke 13:5-5

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
Romans 2:13

once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek
Heb 5:9-10

Yet, in a previous post, was your admission of sinning. So neither have you fulfilled Rom 2:6-8 or John 5:28-29. Guess that means, according to your claims, you do not possess eternal life. What else can we conclude from your own postings?

Amen . Christ wants nothing to do with inobedient/ belivers who refused to change their lifestyles even after accepting Christ as Savior ( Matthew 7:18-24).
Matthew 7:18-24
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. [--------------------------------------------------------->>>>>> This is the point where unobedient / unfruitful believers risk being cast into hell fire ( C. Reference Revelation 20: 11-15)]
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Whoever reading this post" dear friends Faith without works is like body without soul. Somehow the great doctrine of God through His word was converted into a MOCKERY imo when modern teachers chose to take out obedience out of the salvation doctrine leaving only faith behind----- which is dead without good works ( James)
take heed brothers and sisters and start OBEYING Lord's commands today itself before it gets too late. Don't rely on this perverted version ( faith alone is good enough). It's creation of a sick human mind as it defeats the very teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[MCoop]

Hmmmm, grace and works always go together. We are saved unto good works. We are not saved by works but we are saved FOR good works.

I hate that Christians quibble over such things. One side wants to protect grace at all costs and the other side wants to protect works even at the cost of grace. I'm with Charlie Brown: "Good grief"

The grace side quotes Eph 2:8,9 and the other side just v 10. Never quote a Bible verse. Context and big picture matter.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

If we are honest, this whole debate or quibble as you say, is about how one is saved or justified before God. By grace or mans works. So you can’t have it both ways. Ephesians 2: 8-10 is so obvious that salvation is solely conditioned in Christ and His merits alone apart from works of man. So straddling the fence on this issue just brings more confusion and does no justice for the truth. If one believes in the very least, his works plays any role towards his justification before God, then that person lacks a repentant heart and has no faith in the gospel of Christ. The very fact that one puts so much value in their works, as many on this thread do, shows how void they are of knowing how wretched and sinful they really are before God. If you believe you have to maintain good works of obedience in order to stay saved and not lose your salvation, then you are completely ignorant of the gospel of Christ that saves. The only thing the elect plead on that great day, is Christ and His righteousness alone. Justification by faith alone is justification by Christ alone apart from mans works. And many on this thread don’t believe this. Anything that is added to this truth is a denial of the gospel, regardless of lip service and mental assent. It’s that simple. Salvation is all of grace, that is by Gods Sovereign elective grace, from start to finish and conditioned solely in Christ and His merits alone received by faith alone.. and this produces good works in the believer from a changed heart via regeneration. The saved in Christ will always bear good fruit. Some 30 fold some 60 fold some 100 fold. This is an absolute by Gods grace and power in salvation. As a good tree will bear good fruit. But this has been said before. It’s only ignored by those who seek to be justified by their works

 

[PeterJens]

As sheep we are called to do this
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me--put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
Philippians 4:8-9

Doing good things, noble, pure, lovely, admirable are things we should honour, think about and desire
to do. Halleluyah to the Lords revelation of the Life of the Spirit in our hearts. So be encouraged.

 

[JLB]

If we are honest, this whole debate or quibble as you say, is about how one is saved or justified before God. By grace or mans works. So you can’t have it both ways

Actually it is both.

God’s grace and our work of obedience is how we are saved.

IOW obeying the Gospel.

James and Hebrews teaches us this principle.

Faith without the work of obedience is dead.

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

As plain as day...a man is justified by works.

• a man is justified by works

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

John 3:18
"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
NASB

As to the Great White Throne Judgement.
I know not.

This is the final judgment. John 3:18 is about generally being under judgment, but not actually having been judged yet. That occurs at the GWT judgment.

Eschatology is not my forte'.
I think the unsaved are told all they did wrong and then thrown into the Lake of Fire. It's found in revelation and speaks to works, which I do believe in.

There will be no sins mentioned at the GWT judgment. Read Rev 20:11-15. The "books" mentioned are about deeds or works. When the Bible speaks of sin, it says so. So works or deeds are the good that people do. Yet, it doesn't meet the righteousness of God.

Revelation 20:11-13New King James Version (NKJV)
The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,a]" data-fn="#fen-NKJV-31051a">[a] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

As I said.

 

[FreeGrace]

My friend, "heresy" "blasphemy". I do not know how your mind thinks, but I am simply saying we become children of God and walk in His ways.

So how does one "become children of God"?

John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,

2 verses saying the same thing.

John says it like this

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
2 John 1:6

This is a command for those already saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

The branch that is in the vine is in relationship to the vine.

Without being in the Vine in relationship, it would die.

JLB

The Bible never speaks of vine and branches in a relationship way.

The Bible does speak of permanent relationship between parent and child and husband and wife.

 

[FreeGrace]

I do wonder about something.
I am accused of being heretical and blasphemous yet what crime have I committed?

Those things aren't crimes. They are misunderstanding what Scripture says.

Denying any part of the Bible or claiming something opposite to what the Bible plainly says is heretical and denying anything that Jesus said is blasphemous.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
not by works, so that no one can boast.
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Eph 2:8-10

I have no idea how someone who claims one is saved by faith plus works can even read Eph 2:8,9.

v.10, btw, is WHAT we have been created FOR: good works.

Good works have NO PLACE in getting saved.

We are saved, not BY good works, but FOR good works. Do you see the difference?