Justification and Sanctification

[JLB]

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God

This scripture says we are saved by confessing Jesus as Lord rather than believeing alone.


Thanks for making my point.

 

[ezra]

This scripture says we are saved by confessing Jesus as Lord rather than believeing alone.


Thanks for making my point.

gnat straining

 

[JLB]

gnat straining

Here is what Jesus said about “believing” Jews would would not confess Him as Lord.

Please read this dialogue.

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. John 8:31-44


Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue;
John 12:42

JLB

 

[ezra]

Here is what Jesus said about “believing” Jews would would not confess Him as Lord.

Please read this dialogue.

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. John 8:31-44


Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue;
John 12:42

JLB

none of this says we must work to keep our salvation or be justified

 

[JLB]

none of this says we must work to keep our salvation or be justified

The only way to be saved is obey the Gospel.

The only way to be justified by s obedience.


JLB

 

[MCoop]

100% garunteed we are saved by works!!!!!

But it is the work of God through His son Jesus Christ....
God didnt save us through faith alone wo works......
But in truth it isnt our works.....only the cross can save but it is a work of Love.....

God so loved the world that He gave His only son
That all who believe in Him would be saved
John 3:16

God saves NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy.. Titus 3:5. Which is it, our works or the works of Christ? You are back and forth in this post

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Am I to understand that Abram was not justified when he believed God and then departed Haran and began his journey to Canaan in Genesis 12?

He was justified when he obeyed God in Genesis 12.

He was justified when he obeyed God in Genesis 15.

He was justified when he obeyed God in Genesis 22.


JLB

 

[JLB]

God saves NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy.. Titus 3:5. Which is it, our works or the works of Christ? You are back and forth in this post

Of course we are not born again (saved) because of some good works we did.

We are saved by obeying the Gospel.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

God saves NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy.. Titus 3:5. Which is it, our works or the works of Christ? You are back and forth in this post

If we are saved merely by faith please explain why James wrote Faith without works is dead .
Also explain why Christ Himself issues a caveat
Matthew 7:21 ►

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
As Jesus our Lord was obedient to the point if death , and so were his twelve apostles, we ALSO need to OBEY. I wonder why are so many brothers petrified of obedience? It's inherent part of salvation doctrine.
Didn't Paul also caution us in
Philippians 2:12 ►
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
It's obvious to me that Paul knew about the devastating consequences of non obedience ( and fruitlessness)
Bottomline : Accept Christ not just as Savior but also as your Lord.....obey Him. I happily agree to His Lordship

 

[JLB]

Well said , you speak prudently. Scripture is very clear Faith is DEAD without good works. And if the Faith is found Dead by the Lord on the day of judgement, how can that person be saved . He/ she never qualified for the saving grace . The connection therefore is clear. If we profess to have faith in Lord Jesus as Savior then our faith must manifest itself in form of good works . Thus we need both --- Repentant faith as well as to Obey.
Only then will we have full grace of God .
Consider the great commission of the Lord Jesus Himself
Matthew 28:18-20
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,"baptizing in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED you. And surely I am with you alway to the very end of the age.”
i feel blessed that we are teaching what the Christ Himself taught . And this is a vital verse since through this command He was sending His disciples across the globe with the DOCTRINE Jesus wanted them / us to share
So my question to all nay sayers to OBEDIENCE is should we do what Jesus commanded or should we believe what many Churches are teaching nowadays ( no obedience needed for salvation)
I believe this kind of doctrine is TOXIC as it attempts to Contravene what the Lord Jesus commanded

Yes sir.

Fruitless Christians will be removed from Him.

 

[MCoop]

James is defining the law of faith.



IOW how faith functions.

Faith functions or operates by obedience.

Without the work or action of obedience, faith is dead and inactive, unable to produce the divine result that God intends.

James explains this principle:


21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:21-26


Abraham was justified by his obedience, when The Lord told him to offer him s son on the altar.

When the Lord spoke to him, to offer his son, he had faith.

His faith became active when he obeyed and offered his son on the altar, producing the intended justification.

Had he not obeyed, he would not have been justified.


JLB

Abraham’s obedience gives evidence of his faith in God by his actions. Justification is an act of Gods mercy. Gods grace in Christ and His merits justifies and saves. Salvation is an act of Gods mercy and grace. Sovereign election is the grace that saves. This is what Abraham believed and all the elect. This is what it means to be justified by faith alone. Which is justification in Christ alone. So his obedience is not his justification. Gods perfect righteousness in Christ is his justification, and this is what Abraham rested in. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Abraham was resting in the promises of God as his justification. And demonstrated it through his actions. And is why Paul and James don’t contradict each other as many seem to think on here that promote works based salvation. This is what many on here seem not to understand. And is why there is boasting in mans works on this thread. The Judaizers twisted it as well. Obedience to Christ follows faith. But obedience done for merit brings the wrath of God and a denial of grace and the gospel of Christ

 

[MCoop]

If we are saved merely by faith please explain why James wrote Faith without works is dead .
Also explain why Christ Himself issues a caveat
Matthew 7:21 ►

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
As Jesus our Lord was obedient to the point if death , and so were his twelve apostles, we ALSO need to OBEY. I wonder why are so many brothers petrified of obedience? It's inherent part of salvation doctrine.
Didn't Paul also caution us in
Philippians 2:12 ►
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
It's obvious to me that Paul knew about the devastating consequences of non obedience ( and fruitlessness)
Bottomline : Accept Christ not just as Savior but also as your Lord.....obey Him. I happily agree to His Lordship

Already have. The blind and deaf and stiff neck aren’t able to see the difference. Unless perhaps God grants them repentance

 

[MCoop]

Yes sir.

Fruitless Christians will be removed from Him.

Fruitless professors just show they were never among Gods elect

 

[Papa Zoom]

If we are saved merely by faith please explain why James wrote Faith without works is dead .
Also explain why Christ Himself issues a caveat
Matthew 7:21 ►

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
As Jesus our Lord was obedient to the point if death , and so were his twelve apostles, we ALSO need to OBEY. I wonder why are so many brothers petrified of obedience? It's inherent part of salvation doctrine.
Didn't Paul also caution us in
Philippians 2:12 ►
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
It's obvious to me that Paul knew about the devastating consequences of non obedience ( and fruitlessness)
Bottomline : Accept Christ not just as Savior but also as your Lord.....obey Him. I happily agree to His Lordship

James 2:18
Works demonstrate genuine faith. Ultimately it's a work from the heart. Deeds (or works) are meaningless if they don't come from a pure heart
(Matthew 7:21-23New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’)

What is the Father's will? To believe the Son. John 6:29 But to believe is to follow and to follow is to do as Jesus said to do. John 14:15 The key is love. John 13:34, 35 Without love, we're a noisy gong which is to say we make a lot of noise that is simply loud and obnoxious. But it's worthless for much else.

Works that are mechanical are meaningless. We're not saved by works in any measure. Ephesians 2:8,9

A truly saved person is reborn. What follows rebirth is change. Matthew 7:15-20

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

James 2:18
Works demonstrate genuine faith. Ultimately it's a work from the heart. Deeds (or works) are meaningless if they don't come from a pure heart
(Matthew 7:21-23New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’)

What is the Father's will? To believe the Son. John 6:29 But to believe is to follow and to follow is to do as Jesus said to do. John 14:15 The key is love. John 13:34, 35 Without love, we're a noisy gong which is to say we make a lot of noise that is simply loud and obnoxious. But it's worthless for much else.

Works that are mechanical are meaningless. We're not saved by works in any measure. Ephesians 2:8,9

A truly saved person is reborn. What follows rebirth is change. Matthew 7:15-20

And what if we even fail to love . Will our Faith save us ?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Fruitless professors just show they were never among Gods elect

I believe it would be exceedingly imprudent to just BELIEVE and not Obey. Faith combined with willing heart to obey/ follow is the saving grace . Else I'm afraid not

 

[dirtfarmer]

He was justified when he obeyed God in Genesis 12.

He was justified when he obeyed God in Genesis 15.

He was justified when he obeyed God in Genesis 22.


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

From these scriptures are we to believe that Abram was justified more than once? What did Abram do between Genesis 12 and Genesis 15 that caused him to have to be justified again, also between Genesis 15 and Genesis 22?

 

[Papa Zoom]

And what if we even fail to love . Will our Faith save us ?

If you mean fail here and there then yes, Faith will save. We're not perfect. We're bound to fail at times. But if a person's heart isn't changed from within, there is no faith in the first place. You can't have genuine faith that isn't followed by Spirit filled Love. It would be impossible. But a moment of failure to love is not the problem. It's all about a changed heart.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

And I look forward to these verses. If the Bible says it, then I will believe it. But since there are so many more verses that base salvation and eternal life on faith apart from anything else, I don't believe any such verses exist that you're referring to.


Well, we certainly disagree, and strongly. I totally believe Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 that contrasts faith and works.

Only faith alone will save. Works has nothing to do with salvation, or the work of Christ was INSUFFICIENT. Which it was not.

He was already saved when he said that.

It seems your religion is exactly the same as those of the Pharisees of Jesus' day. How does that feel?

This church pastor of Gospel Way Church of God in Christ from Lexington city Virginia has raised very important questions about the doctrine of salvation that is being taught in many churches nowadays----- That we are saved by faith alone


The pastor’s topic / question is “ Is Obedience Essential to Salvation? Must We Obey Jesus to Be Forgiven of Sin?”

He has provided numerous verses to support his premise/ opinion which strongly resonates with mine and if I may say so, is the correct interpretation of salvation doctrine. I’m producing the link here for you to peruse his thoughts.

I am also presenting his conclusions (along with verses) about the doctrine which teaches that a person is saved by faith alone --- which I believe is toxic doctrine



https://www.facebook.com/gospelwaycogic/


Is Obedience Essential to Salvation? Must We Obey Jesus to Be Forgiven of Sin?

https://www.gospelway.com/salvation/obedience.php



Consider the consequences if a person believes the [denominational ]doctrine that obedience is NOT necessary to salvation:


* Since accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior requires a commitment to obey him, it follows that such a person has not truly accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior.


* Since loving God requires and includes obeying Him, it follows that such a person does not truly love God.


* Since saving faith requires and includes obeying Him, it follows that such a person does not have a saving faith.

* Since repentance, confession, and baptism require obeying Him, it follows that such a person has not truly repented. Furthermore, he has not been properly baptized, since true baptism requires the person to believe that the purpose of baptism is to receive forgiveness of sin.

* Since obedience is necessary for one to stand justified before the Lord in the Judgment Day, it follows that such a person is not ready to face God in judgment.

So, obedience is essential to salvation. We must be "doers of the word."

1 John 2:3-6 - To know Him and abide in Him, we must keep his commands, keep his word. If we are not doing so, but still claim to know Him, we are liars, and we don't abide in Him. [Note what happens to liars - Rev. 21:8; John 15:5,6.]

1 John 3:6-8,10 - If we want to be righteous, we must practice righteousness. If we practice sin, we are of the Devil. If we don't practice righteousness, we are not of God. [Cf. 3:24]

We have learned that the obedience that God requires includes love, faith, repentance, confession, baptism, and a faithful life (1 Cor. 15:58). Have you obeyed the Lord? Are you willing to do so?
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Free Grace What do you think of this learned pastor's teaching / interpretation ?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

If you mean fail here and there then yes, Faith will save. We're not perfect. We're bound to fail at times. But if a person's heart isn't changed from within, there is no faith in the first place. You can't have genuine faith that isn't followed by Spirit filled Love. It would be impossible. But a moment of failure to love is not the problem. It's all about a changed heart.

I find your views consistent with sound doctrine