Justification and Sanctification

[chessman]

There is nothing you can say that will change the fact that Paul was addressing Christians in his letter to the Romans.

I didn’t say Paul was proclaiming (bringing/announcing) the Gospel to “you who are Rome” in this letter, he did.

I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. Thus I am eager to proclaim the gospel also to you who are in Rome.​

Romans 1:14-15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 1:14-15&version=LEB

I’m just taking him at his written words. Including ALL of his sentence which is Romans 2:5-8:

But in-accordance-with your hardness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing-up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and the revelation of the righteous-judgment of God, Who will render to each one according to his works— to the ones seeking glory and honor and immortality in accordance with endurance in good work, He will render eternal life; but to the ones indeed disobeying the truth and obeying unrighteousness out of selfish-interest, there will be wrath and fury.​

Romans 2:5-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 2:5-8&version=DLNT

There’s nothing you can say to change Paul’s writing to some with “unrepentant hearts” into a Christian.

 

[JLB]

had you gave me the chance to edit my post which i did it posted before i finished.. you would SEE God cleans them . and you would also see more of what i posted instead of jumping in with childish remarks

God will cleanse those who repent and obey him.

 

[ezra]

I see so your church sign someone means Romans 2:6-8 isn’t true?

That would explain a lot.

JLB

yes your reply does explain a lot i had edited this with in 30 seconds or better when i hit the wrong key and it posted before finishing ..so in case you fail to see it or refuse which ever of the two

to be honest your adding conditions sanctification is a w i p .but those who choose to disobey might not never been saved . a church sign i seen reads fishers of men we catch them. God cleans them .. so even though i have doubts about some. i remind my self 1. i am not the judge 2. i have just enough oil to take care of my self . taking care of me is a full time job. sometimes i have to work O.T . going to the potters wheel and asking the potter to repair me.

 

[JLB]

I didn’t say Paul was proclaiming (bringing/announcing) the Gospel to “you who are Rome” in this letter, he did.

I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. Thus I am eager to proclaim the gospel also to you who are in Rome.​

Romans 1:14-15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 1:14-15&version=LEB

I’m just taking him at his written words. Including ALL of his sentence which is Romans 2:5-8:

But in-accordance-with your hardness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing-up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and the revelation of the righteous-judgment of God, Who will render to each one according to his works— to the ones seeking glory and honor and immortality in accordance with endurance in good work, He will render eternal life; but to the ones indeed disobeying the truth and obeying unrighteousness out of selfish-interest, there will be wrath and fury.​

Romans 2:5-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 2:5-8&version=DLNT

There’s nothing you can say to change Paul’s writing to some with “unrepentant hearts” into a Christian.

Paul wrote Romans 2 to Christians.

If a Christian is practicing the works of the flesh they need to repent, or they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

 

[ezra]

God will cleanse those who repent and obey him.

lets hope you make sure you repent and obey . so you dont go to hell

 

[JLB]

yes your reply does explain a lot i had edited this with in 30 seconds or better when i hit the wrong key and it posted before finishing ..so in case you fail to see it or refuse which ever of the two

Ok I can go back and delete that post then reply to your edited post.

 

[JLB]

lets hope you make sure you repent and obey . so you dont go to hell

I definitely will.

That is sound biblical advice.

Thanks.

JLB

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Why aren't the very words of your Lord and Savior enough?


Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish (John 10:28). It could not have been stated any more clearly than that.

We know that eternal life is given when one believes, because of these verses:
John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-27, 20:31, 1 Tim 1:16, 1 John 5:13.

Therefore, from the MOMENT one has believed, they shall never perish.

Yet, you've claimed that there isn't anything in the NT that "absolutely guarantees your salvation". Well, Jesus did just that.

This is a matter of FAITH. Do you really believe what Jesus said, or not?

Dear Free Grace I promise later today I will provide ten MORE verses where the Lord is very clear that " no obedience no salvation". Faith alone won't save anyone. It Has to be both, a Repentant faith and obedience -----whoke hearted willingness to follow the Lord . May I give an example quickly Abraham Abraham , " Here I am Lord" -----that kind of willingness to follow. What happened in the case in the rich man ? Was he damned or saved ? What did he ask Jesus was needed to get eternal life .
Lords answer was, keep the mosaic commandments
Rich man said he had kept them.
Jesus then asked him to give away all his riches to the poor and FOLLOW HIM. why didn't Jesus ask the rich man to just BELIEVE, as alter call savings are done nowadays ? The reason is simple. Having Mere Faith is one thing , but Following the Lord is an altogether different ball game.it requires much much more than mete faith . Most Christians now only wish to have faith , not obedience , because it's vastly easier. But Just by believing you don't get saved .we need both --- faith n obedience. Rest later in the day very sleepy

 

[PeterJens]

lets hope you make sure you repent and obey . so you dont go to hell

There is a link being made here between repentance and obedience and hell.
Those who know Jesus, who actually love Him, desire to walk in His ways and not do evil.
They delight, and I mean delight, in His concepts, principles and ways of being.
It grieves them when they fail, and they desire to up lift and glorify their King.

This is not about avoiding hell, because hell is there for Gods enemies and evil doers.
It is like saying, you drive a car well to avoid crashes, rather than you drive well to get
where you need to go, which as a consequence avoids crashes, but avoiding crashes does
not define your journey, your start or your end. Emphasis matters, but to say you do not drive
in case you crash defeats the whole travel and removes the ability to achieve what ones needs
to achieve, in this case, walking with the Lord.

 

[JLB]

to achieve, in this case, walking with the Lord

Yes walking with Him and hearing His Voice and pleasing Him.

When you love Someone you just naturally want to please them.


JLB

 

[PeterJens]

lets hope you make sure you repent and obey . so you dont go to hell

As a side note, if it a crazy thing to want to repent and obey, causes people to fall over, why did Jesus
call people to repent?

unless you repent, you too will all perish
Luke 13:5-5

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
Romans 2:13

once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek
Heb 5:9-10

 

[Douglas Summers]

hello Traveling teacher, dirtfarmer here

You have reversed the order: If you are not Justified you can't be sanctified. The lifelong relationship with God is always through his Son. Without the crucifixion of Christ on the cross, a relationship with God cannot be established. Christ is the righteousness of God that has been imputed to those that believe in the cross-work of Christ.

Amen and Amen.

 

[JLB]

As a side note, if it a crazy thing to want to repent and obey, causes people to fall over, why did Jesus
call people to repent?

unless you repent, you too will all perish
Luke 13:5-5

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
Romans 2:13

once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek
Heb 5:9-10

 

[FreeGrace]

Exactly.

Yes I certainly have done wrong things as a Christian and have repented and cleansed myself of many things by the Spirit.

Therefore, Rom 2:6-8 cannot be the way you obtained eternal life. Those verses aren't about repenting after sins. It's about continuance in doing good. When one sins, they have CEASED to do good. That's not continuance.

It’s called the process of sanctification.

Which has no relevance to either getting saved or maintaining salvation.

Those Christian’s who chose to obey unrighteousness and never embrace the process of sanctification will receive the wrath of God on that Day, rather than eternal life.

Please explain how this can be true when Jesus said recipients (those He gives eternal life) shall never perish.

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

By your own admission in this post, you've not lived up to these verses.

The word "continuance" doesn't mean some of the time, or many times, or even most of the time. It means ALL THE TIME. Which you've not done.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus's words are enough, but the obviously need to be understood in the context of all He has said.

There is NOTHING He said that changes the very obvious words and meaning of John 10:28. Those given eternal life by Him shall never perish.

Where did your gift of eternal life come from? Certainly not yourself. It came from Jesus himself. Therefore, you shall never perish. No conditions to meet for recipients of eternal life.

The ONLY condition for obtaining eternal life is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

SIn God hates, not a little, but with His whole being. Sin destroys His kingdom and all who touch it,
Sin defiles the soul, body and spirit. There are not compromises.

Do you believe that Christ died and paid for ALL sins, or just some of them?

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus taught the same thing to His disciples as He taught Paul.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Yet, in a previous post, was your admission of sinning. So neither have you fulfilled Rom 2:6-8 or John 5:28-29. Guess that means, according to your claims, you do not possess eternal life. What else can we conclude from your own postings?

 

[FreeGrace]

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

Please reconcile these words of Christ in with your theology.

Wth great pleasure, I will.

The "done good" in v.28 refers to placing one's full faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. It sure can't refer to one's behavior or lifestyle. That would be a works salvation system, which negates the finished work of Jesus Christ.

And these.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Gladly again. By "abiding in Me", Jesus was teaching His disciples to stay in fellowship with Him, so that they could produce fruit.

John 15 -
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

No believer who is out of fellowship (not abiding in Christ) can produce fruit.

 

[GodsGrace]

How come none of these verses do not say it is Christians that God will Judge, but it is yourself that does?

The lost are already judged...

 

[FreeGrace]

Dear Free Grace I promise later today I will provide ten MORE verses where the Lord is very clear that " no obedience no salvation".

And I look forward to these verses. If the Bible says it, then I will believe it. But since there are so many more verses that base salvation and eternal life on faith apart from anything else, I don't believe any such verses exist that you're referring to.

Faith alone won't save anyone. It Has to be both, a Repentant faith and obedience -----whoke hearted willingness to follow the Lord .

Well, we certainly disagree, and strongly. I totally believe Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 that contrasts faith and works.

Only faith alone will save. Works has nothing to do with salvation, or the work of Christ was INSUFFICIENT. Which it was not.

May I give an example quickly Abraham Abraham , " Here I am Lord" -----that kind of willingness to follow.

He was already saved when he said that.

What happened in the case in the rich man ? Was he damned or saved ? What did he ask Jesus was needed to get eternal life.
Lords answer was, keep the mosaic commandments

It seems your religion is exactly the same as those of the Pharisees of Jesus' day. How does that feel?

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes walking with Him and hearing His Voice and pleasing Him.

When you love Someone you just naturally want to please them.
JLB

Was Jesus pleased by the sins you've just today admitted to? No, He was not.