Justification and Sanctification

[Traveling teacher]

I agree
The greatest commandment is Love...
Matthew 22:36-38
If you have faith only you are nothing.....!!!!
1 corinthians 13:3
From the scriptures it is clear you cannot be saved by faith alone.....
Faith by itself without works is dead.....
James 2:14-17
You must have Love
This is the true test of our salvation and relationship,with God
1 john 4:8
He who does not love does not know God
For God is love.....

 

[Johan]

I've done all the dying I intend to do except for the flesh .

You should not put a halt to your dying. Everything still left of "human" needs to go!

Are you ''born again'' ?

Yep. I am God too.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/born-again.68720/

We are alive and we got work to do

I am totally dead as a human and "have no work to do".

 

[GodsGrace]

If we are honest, this whole debate or quibble as you say, is about how one is saved or justified before God. By grace or mans works. So you can’t have it both ways. Ephesians 2: 8-10 is so obvious that salvation is solely conditioned in Christ and His merits alone apart from works of man. So straddling the fence on this issue just brings more confusion and does no justice for the truth. If one believes in the very least, his works plays any role towards his justification before God, then that person lacks a repentant heart and has no faith in the gospel of Christ. The very fact that one puts so much value in their works, as many on this thread do, shows how void they are of knowing how wretched and sinful they really are before God. If you believe you have to maintain good works of obedience in order to stay saved and not lose your salvation, then you are completely ignorant of the gospel of Christ that saves. The only thing the elect plead on that great day, is Christ and His righteousness alone. Justification by faith alone is justification by Christ alone apart from mans works. And many on this thread don’t believe this. Anything that is added to this truth is a denial of the gospel, regardless of lip service and mental assent. It’s that simple. Salvation is all of grace, that is by Gods Sovereign elective grace, from start to finish and conditioned solely in Christ and His merits alone received by faith alone.. and this produces good works in the believer from a changed heart via regeneration. The saved in Christ will always bear good fruit. Some 30 fold some 60 fold some 100 fold. This is an absolute by Gods grace and power in salvation. As a good tree will bear good fruit. But this has been said before. It’s only ignored by those who seek to be justified by their works

Who are you to say what Justification is?
It has already been determined by theologians.
Based on Paul's words.
Did YOU make up the meaning??
Why do you REFUSE to understand the difference between Justification and Sanctification?
Is it so difficult?

 

[GodsGrace]

This is the final judgment. John 3:18 is about generally being under judgment, but not actually having been judged yet. That occurs at the GWT judgment.

Is it possible for you to speak without using these quotes?
How am I supposed to know what I'm answering to?
How about using syntax?? It would be nice.

YOU asked where it says that the lost are already judged.
And I replied. I don't understand your answer to ME.
What does "generally being under judgement" mean anyway?
You're either saved or lost.
If you're lost, you are so from birth. Jesus said we must be born from above.
So if one is not, he is already judged and already lost.
The GWTJ from, what little I know, is for NON-BELIEVERS. Believers are already judged by Christ at HIS judgement seat.

There will be no sins mentioned at the GWT judgment. Read Rev 20:11-15. The "books" mentioned are about deeds or works. When the Bible speaks of sin, it says so. So works or deeds are the good that people do. Yet, it doesn't meet the righteousness of God.

What?
There will be no sins mentioned at the GWTJ?
Sin is bad deeds or bad works.
How could good deeds not meet the righteousness of God if Jesus clearly said that the saved must do good deeds. Will these good deeds be judged wrongly?

As I said.

As "I said" what?
I posted Revelation 20:11-13

I'm very happy that you agree with the bible.

 

[Johan]

No, but when they are in personal crises and true believers, they will be quick to call on Him.

Yep. And He comes helping.

Psa 50:15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.

But many have fallen out of fellowship with with the Lord with unconfessed sin.

Yep. There are those things that cause a problem. Not just "unconfessed sin"

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

They need to walk with God. I go nowhere without Him.

True. But this "walking" needs growing. Because it is "feeble" in the beginning.

But as a young man and a Christian, I had much to confess before I was upright with Him in Fellowship. God is merciful.

Confessing does not create growing. But growing creates more confessing. We can only confess as far as we see. And the further we grow the further we can see.

 

[GodsGrace]

He said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish, but your posts indicate that some recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

My posts indicate some recipients of eternal life can perish.
Yes. Those who do not believe till the end.
Mathew 10:33
If we ABIDE in Christ, we will have eternal life.
If we deny Him before men, whenever that may happen, He will deny us before His Father.

In direct contradiction of what Jesus said.

I really fail to see why English is not understood as English.
It seems so plain.
THIS is what Jesus said:
John 15:14
We are Jesus' friends IF WE DO WHAT HE COMMANDS.
If we return to a life of sin, we are no longer abiding in Him and doing what He commands.

No He didn't. Please follow forum rules and quote or cite verses that support your claims.

It takes a lot of time to go back and see to what you're referring.
PLEASE USE SYNTAX.
I always use scripture to support my "CLAIMS".

However, consider these 10 verses:
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
"whoever believes"
Present tense. Must be true at time of death.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Not only must one believe in the Son...Present tense
But He MUST ALSO OBEY the Son.

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Believes: Present tense

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
Present tense.

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Present tense. It does NOT say, someone who believed in the past or at one moment in time. Believe is an ongoing action verb.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
IN CHRIST JESUS.
We must be IN CHRIST JESUS at the time of our death.
We are not in Him if we do not obey Him. I've posted verses on this just above.

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
True. Also:
2 Peter 3:9
God is patient and will wait as long as possible for as many as possible to be saved.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Who Believe.
Present tense.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
"who believe"
Present tense. Must be true at time of death.

It means more than just that. Married couples can live with each other but not abide with each other. The issue of abiding in the Bible is about abiding in fellowship or peace. So it's not just being in the same room or house. Hardly.

So right.
Thanks for clarifying this. Having fellowship and peace. Ya! Big theme of yours.
How do I have fellowship and peace with GOD, an all-supreme and sovereign being, if I'm not worshipping and obeying Him?
He's not my buddy next door, you know?

The Bible doesn't speak of "living with Christ". That is your word, not the Bible's.

Living with Christ.
Living In Christ.
Abiding with Christ.
Living with Christ.

You pay attention to ONE WORD. And miss whole sentences!!

The Bible speaks of being IN Christ, which means to be in union with Christ. Something the Holy Spirit does for each believer, per Eph 1:13. The Bible also speaks of abiding in, remaining in, and continuing in Him. These are about fellowship.

Yeah. That fellowship thingy again.
It must be nice to have all guilt feelings taken away by using incorrect theology.
The study of God. God as a buddy. Interesting.
But I'm happy to see we agree on everything you stated except the fellowship idea.

I heartily agree. Jesus said those who believe HAVE eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 11:25-27.
Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28.

Agreed. As long as one HAS eternal life, present tense, he will not perish.

This is twisting Scripture. What He said was that He saves those who believe in Him.

Again, please abide by forum rules and provide any verse that supports your claim.

There is a tendency not to do that.

Again, No syntax. I really don't know what you're talking about.
But I most probably do not agree.

 

[Johan]

(Excerpts from Romans Chapter 8) Greetings Johan in the name of our Father and our Lord Jesus Chris,

Greetings. My Son.

For the earnest expectation of the creation, waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

And that time has arrived.

Johan, Please pray for the Spiritual strength of the foreign missions,

Let us rather wake them up into the Strength given to them.

pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

No need to as Jesus already brought the peace.

Many foreign missionaries have been martyred.

That is just part and parcel of Christian. I am sacrificing daily.

Pray earnestly in the Spirit.

Yep. Our Relationship is where our Strength is.

Peace in God's promises and His Holy Grace.
Your brother in Christ
Douglas Summers

Actually I am your Mother in Christ.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/his-wife.68761/

http://forums.delphiforums.com/perfectgrace/messages/?msg=1591.1

https://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,49517.msg9537153.html#msg9537153

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=28142#p575170

https://web.facebook.com/johan.abrahams.7/posts/1156662534470203

 

[GodsGrace]

You’re sure, anyone means anyone?

So anyone could, in fact, mean someone who does not abide in Jesus, right?

ANYONE MEANS ANYONE.
THE WORLD MEANS EVERYONE.
NO ONE MEANS NO ONE.

One who does not abide in Christ.
ANY ONE who does not abide in Christ... is lost.

 

[GodsGrace]

and i agree %100 with you what i can not agree with is JLB point.. when i said fishers of men we catch them God cleans them... then he added conditions conditions... if this be the case throw the old hymn out just as i am w/o one plea along with Ephesians 2 saved by grace through faith not of works it is the gift of God.. much like the church i attend i am not a pastor at this time. hope to be somewhere down the line. if they need adult s.s teacher i step up. if the pastor ask me to preach i do so. it is my calling my work . when i got saved i knew Nothing about obey/ repentance. the only thing for justification which is same as Grace .is a willing heart God will give us that heart to know him through the Holy Spirit.. so Romans 2 has nothing to do with us being saved works follows salvation .if we depend on works to keep us saved then burn the cross down to ashes blow the tomb up to rubble . appreciate your friendship even though you live in a different nation ..so tell me how strong is Christianity in italy and how well excepted .. to be honest i am tired of the negative hogwash..

Ezra,
What do you mean by "negative hogwash"?
Italy is in a bad way.
Christianity in all of Europe is vanishing.
It's rather scary to tell you the truth.

I see that by works, you mean your works for the church.
A work is a good deed. Anything we do for God is a work or good deed.
Unsaved persons do good works and good deeds but they cound for nothing.
After salvation our good works count for the glory we give to God in our obeying Him.

This is all just language. Works keep us saved in the sense that if we do NOT do good works, it is a bad sign. I don't do anything for my church right now.
So am I going to hell? I sure hope not. But my good works could be taking care of my family.

I think JLB and I are saying the same thing but maybe using different words.
James said that FAITH without works is dead. Maybe if we don't have works we DO have a dead faith?
James 2:17

 

[chessman]

ANY ONE who does not abide in Christ... is lost.

It would be more helpful toward your case (Jesus is teaching about loss of salvation in John 15:5-6 versus “bears much fruit”) if the passage actually said, ‘anyone who does not abide in Christ is lost’ versus
“The one who remains in me and I in him—this one bears much fruit”

But let’s go with your assumptions on this passage for a moment and test your assumptions out:

Assumption 1. Anyone means any one
Assumption 2. Not abiding in Christ (the vine) means lost.

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.​

John 15:1 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 15:1&version=LEB

Is the vinedresser abiding in the vine?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

A rather exciting thing happened tonight which I would like to share with everyone here--- and it's very relevant to this thread. I was at a grocery store late at night. There was hardly anybody there. So taking advantage of the quiet time I started "talking to the Lord" ( in my heart/ mind) asking the Lord, "Lord I am very disturbed. I truly believe from my understanding of the scripture and the message therein that obedience for any believer is of vital importance. But Lord many dont believe and continue to disregard obedience--- even several pastors and teachers. They believe that faith in you is enough for salvation. Obedient or otherwise
Honestly, I didn't expect any answer from Jesus. He need not answer everything I wish to know But He did. At least I thought He did. Because the verses He gave me stunned me. How could I have known this? So I believe it came from The Lord through His Spirit. Well, you don't have to believe it came from Christ, I have no proof. But what (I believe) He gave me, I share with you .

He said "If believing in me was sufficient to be saved, I will have to save the demons and devil, who also believe in me. But do they follow me?"
James 2:19 [New Living Translation]
"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror."
Luke 8:28
When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!"

Then the Lord went on to remind me of the parable of the sower -- He said: "Am I not amply clear about the expectation of fruitfulness and obedience from everyone who elects to follow me, in this parable?"

Matthew 13:18-23
“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.
But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

Then in His very loving way, he said
"Many are called but few are chosen" ( Matthew 22:14)

And He finished this astonishing "conversation" with the following words from (Isaiah 53:1)
"Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?"

Friends, my brothers and sisters in Christ, trust me I really thought ( initially) I must have talked to my self ( like replying to my own thoughts and thinking it was Jesus). But when I reached home and wrote it down, it made perfect sense and I at once knew I couldn't have known this. Anyway I'll be happy if you get something out of it, and if not, honestly I will not feel offended.

PS: I put the Lord's words to me in blue ink to make it easier to understand what I'm trying to say here. They are not scripture so I avoided red color.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

My posts indicate some recipients of eternal life can perish.
Yes. Those who do not believe till the end.
Mathew 10:33
If we ABIDE in Christ, we will have eternal life.
If we deny Him before men, whenever that may happen, He will deny us before His Father.


I really fail to see why English is not understood as English.
It seems so plain.
THIS is what Jesus said:
John 15:14
We are Jesus' friends IF WE DO WHAT HE COMMANDS.
If we return to a life of sin, we are no longer abiding in Him and doing what He commands.



It takes a lot of time to go back and see to what you're referring.
PLEASE USE SYNTAX.
I always use scripture to support my "CLAIMS".




So right.
Thanks for clarifying this. Having fellowship and peace. Ya! Big theme of yours.
How do I have fellowship and peace with GOD, an all-supreme and sovereign being, if I'm not worshipping and obeying Him?
He's not my buddy next door, you know?



Living with Christ.
Living In Christ.
Abiding with Christ.
Living with Christ.

You pay attention to ONE WORD. And miss whole sentences!!


Yeah. That fellowship thingy again.
It must be nice to have all guilt feelings taken away by using incorrect theology.
The study of God. God as a buddy. Interesting.
But I'm happy to see we agree on everything you stated except the fellowship idea.



Agreed. As long as one HAS eternal life, present tense, he will not perish.



Again, No syntax. I really don't know what you're talking about.
But I most probably do not agree.

Dear Wondering, I wish I knew how you and Johan ( and many others) select a passage ( in reference) and then reply. it's so awesome. I wish I could do it as well. But I don't know how to select bits of a text. How do you do it? Will appreciate guidance. Thanks in advance

 

[GodsGrace]

and i agree %100 with you what i can not agree with is JLB point.. when i said fishers of men we catch them God cleans them... then he added conditions conditions... if this be the case throw the old hymn out just as i am w/o one plea along with Ephesians 2 saved by grace through faith not of works it is the gift of God.. much like the church i attend i am not a pastor at this time. hope to be somewhere down the line. if they need adult s.s teacher i step up. if the pastor ask me to preach i do so. it is my calling my work . when i got saved i knew Nothing about obey/ repentance. the only thing for justification which is same as Grace .is a willing heart God will give us that heart to know him through the Holy Spirit.. so Romans 2 has nothing to do with us being saved works follows salvation .if we depend on works to keep us saved then burn the cross down to ashes blow the tomb up to rubble . appreciate your friendship even though you live in a different nation ..so tell me how strong is Christianity in italy and how well excepted .. to be honest i am tired of the negative hogwash..

Ezra,
I don't know what conditions JLB added, but I can say that I tend to trust him.
If you mean that the condition is to Repent and Obey, then I'd have to agree.

One must REPENT.
Turn around. One was going toward the evil one. We're born into this condition.
If we do NOT repent we continue walking toward the evil one.
But then we become born from above, we notice that there's a God.
So we Repend and turn the other way...
Now we are walking toward God.
One MUST repent in order to be saved.

And Obey.
How could one not obey the one he loves??
If we do not obey God, it's a sign that we care not about Him.
If we don't care about Him and love Him, are we saved??
John 14:15

 

[JLB]

Abraham’s obedience gives evidence of his faith in God by his actions. Justification is an act of Gods mercy.

Faith must have the corresponding action of obedience for it to work, or it is dead like a body without a spirit is dead, and does not function.

When God speaking to us, it produces faith.

That faith becomes activated or alive when we respond by doing what He says.

Dead faith does not save or justify.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Abraham was justified, which means he was declared righteous, by is work or act of obedience to offer his son on the altar.

No one is justified, declared righteous by disobedience.

No one is saved by disobedience.

No one receives anything from God by disobedience.

“By faith” means someone was obedient.

Unbelief and disobedience are the same Greek word and are used interchangeably.

The woman with the issue of blood, had faith, but it wasn’t until she moved through the crowd to touch the hem of His garment, that she was healed.

Her faith activated the power that was in Christ to be released into her, and she was healed.

20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22


By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Hebrews 11:8

• By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out

In this scripture we see justification and salvation being typified, by New Testament writers, through Abraham’s obedience.

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.
Galatians 3:8

Paul calls it the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

• made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

JLB

 

[JLB]

Ezra,
I don't know what conditions JLB added, but I can say that I tend to trust him.
If you mean that the condition is to Repent and Obey, they I'd have to agree.

One must REPENT.
Turn around. One was going toward the evil one. We're born into this condition.
If we do NOT repent we continue walking toward the evil one.
But then we become born from above, we notice that there's a God.
So we Repend and turn the other way...
Now we are walking toward God.
One MUST repent in order to be saved.

And Obey.
How could one not obey the one he loves??
If we do not obey God, it's a sign that we care not about Him.
If we don't care about Him and love Him, are we saved??
John 14:15

Amen.

Repent is the condition of the Gospel that must be obeyed.

Repent means to turn to God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

From these scriptures are we to believe that Abram was justified more than once? What did Abram do between Genesis 12 and Genesis 15 that caused him to have to be justified again, also between Genesis 15 and Genesis 22?

Yes sir.

 

[JLB]

Fruitless professors just show they were never among Gods elect

By “elect” do you mean elected to be saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

It would be more helpful toward your case (Jesus is teaching about loss of salvation in John 15:5-6 versus “bears much fruit”) if the passage actually said, ‘anyone who does not abide in Christ is lost’ versus
“The one who remains in me and I in him—this one bears much fruit”

But let’s go with your assumptions on this passage for a moment and test your assumptions out:

Assumption 1. Anyone means any one
Assumption 2. Not abiding in Christ (the vine) means lost.

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.​

John 15:1 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 15:1&version=LEB

Is the vinedresser abiding in the vine?

This is a game Chessman.
I don't like games.
If it's an honest question, YOU answer it first.
And I don't read links. I think I've said that 100X.
Just tell me what you want to tell me.
When I want to read biblegateway, I know how to get there.

 

[GodsGrace]

Dear Wondering, I wish I knew how you and Johan ( and many others) select a passage ( in reference) and then reply. it's so awesome. I wish I could do it as well. But I don't know how to select bits of a text. How do you do it? Will appreciate guidance. Thanks in advance

Hello RS
You don't need any guidance from me!
You know scripture very well and post it appropriately.
Just continue in your way -- you are lacking in nothing.

 

[PeterJens]

Those things aren't crimes. They are misunderstanding what Scripture says.

Denying any part of the Bible or claiming something opposite to what the Bible plainly says is heretical and denying anything that Jesus said is blasphemous.


I have no idea how someone who claims one is saved by faith plus works can even read Eph 2:8,9.

v.10, btw, is WHAT we have been created FOR: good works.

Good works have NO PLACE in getting saved.

We are saved, not BY good works, but FOR good works. Do you see the difference?

My friend, I believe we are saved for good works, and not saved by them.
How is it you do not understand where I stand based on what I shared?
Is it possible you have decided who is in one group and who is in another, irrespective of the beliefs
of the individuals, but based on other criteria which you use?

The problem with using unrelated criteria to label people,is it is not part of Gods way.
God declares the righteous are those that follow His ways. It has always been so.
Jesus's problem with the pharisees is they lied about their motivation and following and only appeared
righteous, while denying the truth of the Kingdom because their hearts where impure defiling their lives.

If anyone cannot accept who people are, what they believe and why, then the conversation and sense
stop. It is always possible to invent things, place them on others and then pull it down. I do wonder why
people fall for propoganda like this, but many idiologies do this.

God bless you, praise the Lord He has saved us from our sin through the cross, Halleluyah