Justification and Sanctification

[GodsGrace]

True. But meat is only after you are "skilful in the word o righteousness" As many are telling themselves and others that they are on the meat while it is obvious to those on the meat that they are lying and just ruled by their pride.

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Maybe.
But to know Jesus is the important thing here.
I don't know too many that have any letters after their name.

1 Corinthians 2:1-2

1And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
2For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

 

[GodsGrace]

God holds us accountable for our deeds.

Whether sinful or righteous.

If a person who has the Spirit within them to lead them and teach them, will have the ability to express what the Spirit desires and learn from what the scriptures teach.

Just because a person is taught OSAS doesn’t necessarily mean they will live sinful lives and never repent.

If a person truly loves the Lord and desires to please Him, they should eventually come to the knowledge of the truth, if they live long enough.

There is also the principle of being a baby Christian or mature and what the Lord requires of each.


JLB

Yes JLB.
I agree with the above.
Thanks.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Hi RS
A few comments:

My first highlight in red is very much believed in the US, as you've noted.
We call it believing in Jesus as Savior, but NOT as Lord.
He must be our Savior, but He must also be our Lord.
Pastors are leading many astray by telling them that they need to believe ONE TIME, and that persons will be saved forever. Some go so far as to say that they could abandon God, and they will still be saved -- when the bible teaches that it is our FAITH that saves us. One that returns to a life of sin, does not have faith.

As regards the above, however, I do want to say that if a Pastor leads one astray, it is HE who will have to speak to God about his mistake, the person who was taught incorrectly is still saved? How could he do what he does not know? I pray God is a merciful God - as I know He is. I believe He will hold us responsible only for what we truly believe. Of course, I can't be sure about this...

I love that statement by Singh. So true.

And, a question, what do you mean by the Kingdom is within us?
I also believe the Kingdom is all around us and is made up by believers.
I believe Jesus did come to set up His Kingdom right here on earth.
A Kingdom that WE are supposed to make be better than the world we're in.
Jesus spoke about the Kingdom a lot. More than about salvation.
If that's what you mean, then I'd have to agree. WE are the Kingdom on earth.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Daer wondering
I believe you got the Word better than most pastors who are ( unknwowingly) deceiving church goers by making them belive their one-time acceptance of Christ will save them . These teachers often cite the verse from Old Testrament ( Genesis): Abraham believed and it was credited to him as rightousness. But the same Abraham was obedient to the hilt-----he was prepared to cut his son Isaac into pieces because the Lord God had asked him to. Why dont pastors teach THIS part of Abraham. God tested him severely and he passed! Because he trusted God and was willing to do whatever God willed him. Therefore as Christains, we must do what the Lord Jesus ( always) did -------" the will of God over His will" when we start doing that the kingdom heaven which is within us will be spereinced. Just by be;liveing in Jesus to get salvation will not save anybody UN:LESS that faith is proved through good works. Jesus said 15:5-6 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing..If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Jesus repeatedly warned of impending judgment for non obedient believers. We must bear good fruit else Jesus will surely CHOP us off.
Again stop coveting salvation! But seek joy in serving the Lord... following Him, keeping His commandments.
John 12:25 ►
Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
So stop craving salvation, dear friends. Not one human on this erath has a clue who all will be saved. Only the ones whose name appears in the Lamb's book of life will be saved . And if your name does not happen to be there, no one can help you. This is the truth . take it or leave it. Therefore i urge you brothers and sisters rather than coveting salvation seek to serve the Lord and keep His commanements ---as best as you can.
As dear wondering had once very aptly put it:
"Let us do our best
and leave to Christ the rest"
This to me is TRUE Christianity. and I believe wondering got it better than the big name Martin Luther. I hope someday we can all write to pastors throughout the length and breadth of the globe urging pastors n teachers of the Word to INCLUDE obedience/ good works, if they at all wish to "guarantee" salvation to their flock.
The kangaroo Christianity that is being, unfortunately, taught in the majority of churches is churning out a bunch of ineffective Christians who are so sure of their salvation that they have stopped bothering about helping or converting any hearts. Many continue to live a sinful lifestyle. Their reasoning is simple. " I am saved, why should I care? None can take my salvation away . My pastor said so!"
Now, my friends, this is kangaroo Christianity. it serves the devil and not the Lord. the devil must be laughing his head off ( for a more honorable word ) that the churches are producing a whole host of Couch Christians! secure in their (false) notion of salvation. Thus according to me not the sweet Word of the Lord is being taught but HERESY! and it makes me very very upset. through innumerable verses, I can prove that no obedience no salvation
Yet all above is only my own opinion. Read the word extensively ( non judgmentally and neutrally) and uninfluenced by what pastors have taught you and you will see the truth and that truth will set you free ...............................from heresy --------------RS

 

[Kidron]

[QUOTE="JLB, post: 1406135, member: 2772"

That’s why Paul was so adamant about removing those who lived in immorality from among the Church.

JLB[/QUOTE]

JLB,

You might read 2nd Corinthians, Chapter 2 vs 5, for an update (clarifying God's grace), regarding this person you are speaking about.
It will come as a shock to you, im sure, to discover that Paul had them restore this person back into the assembly.
(You kinda left that part out, however, Paul didnt).
The reason for this, is because the person, never left the family.



<K><

 

[ezra]

I sure an glad that God is in control and not people! :nod

aint that the truth

 

[JLB]

[QUOTE="JLB, post: 1406135, member: 2772"

That’s why Paul was so adamant about removing those who lived in immorality from among the Church.

JLB

JLB,

You might read 2nd Corinthians, Chapter 2 vs 5, for an update (clarifying God's grace), regarding this person you are speaking about.
It will come as a shock to you, im sure, to discover that Paul had them restore this person back into the assembly.
(You kinda left that part out, however, Paul didnt).
The reason for this, is because the person, never left the family.



<K><

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”
1 Corinthians 5:9-13

No evidence of this person you are claiming was restored, because this command was not about a specific person, but rather Paul and is instructing the Church in righteousness, and how to deal with the immoral.

Hopefully once they are removed, they will come to repentance and return and be restored.

Nevertheless it starts with putting away that person from among the church community so that the defiling immoral behavior does not spread and “leaven the whole lump”.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Daer wondering
I believe you got the Word better than most pastors who are ( unknwowingly) deceiving church goers by making them belive their one-time acceptance of Christ will save them .

Did Jesus deceive those He gives eternal life (which is WHEN they believe, per John 3;15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-27, 20:31, 1` John 5:13) when He said: "I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish." John 10:28

 

[FreeGrace]

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”
1 Corinthians 5:9-13

No evidence of this person you are claiming was restored, because this command was not about a specific person, but rather Paul and is instructing the Church in righteousness, and how to deal with the immoral.

Actually, this WAS about a specific person, the incestuous man at the beginning of chapter 5. And v.5 indicates that he was saved and will remain so.

 

[JLB]

Actually, this WAS about a specific person, the incestuous man at the beginning of chapter 5. And v.5 indicates that he was saved and will remain so.

Nope. Not even close.

Verse 9 begins a general set of instructions about dealing with those who practice immortality among a Church community.

• I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.

Sexually immoral people is a reference to general reference to those within the Church community that practice sexual immorality.

People is plural and refers to whoever practices sexual immorality.

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.
1 Corinthians 6:9-13

As Paul continues to expound upon this command he makes it clear that those who practice this will not inherit the kingdom.


Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10

• Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

All these are plural references to whoever practices the works of the flesh and does not refer to anyone one person.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Actually, this WAS about a specific person, the incestuous man at the beginning of chapter 5. And v.5 indicates that he was saved and will remain so."

Nope. Not even close.

Directly on the bullseye.

Verse 9 begins a general set of instructions about dealing with those who practice immortality among a Church community.

v.9 is part of ch 5, which begins with Paul's instructions regarding an incestuous man and ends with this:
v.1 - It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife.
v.13 - God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

So, yes, v.9 begins with instructions for dealing with immoral believers, and ends specifically with instructions regarding the incestuous man.

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
Sexually immoral people is a reference to general reference to those within the Church community that practice sexual immorality.

People is plural and refers to whoever practices sexual immorality.

[
And v.13 is SINGULAR. Which refers SPECIFICALLY to the man in v.1.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.
1 Corinthians 6:9-13

Did you notice that "evil person" is singular?

 

[FreeGrace]

1 Cor 5 begins with the problem: sexual immorality.
v.1 - It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife.

1 Cor 5 ends with the solution to the problem.
v.13 - God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Did Jesus deceive those He gives eternal life (which is WHEN they believe, per John 3;15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-27, 20:31, 1` John 5:13) when He said: "I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish." John 10:28

You referenced John 3:16. Why don't teachers of the Word mention John 3:36 where John the Baptist issues a terse warning "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Bible is very clear on obedience my friend . Do not get deceived by few verses . Read Revelation repeatedly and you will realize the importance of good works and deeds. For they will follow us everywhere like our shadow. Let us then make sure we keep the Lords commandments lest we get kicked out of kingdom of heaven ( read Matthew 7: 21-28)

 

[FreeGrace]

You referenced John 3:16. Why don't teachers of the Word mention John 3:36 where John the Baptist issues a terse warning "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

I really don't see any significant difference. Is this a suggestion that they say something different? That 3:36 says more than 3:16?

The word for "not obey" is 'apietho', which means to "disbelieve". So I don't see any difference.

Bible is very clear on obedience my friend .

You are absolutely correct. Of course God demands and command obedience from the human race.

Do not get deceived by few verses .

I haven't been. I'm thoroughly familiar with the whole Bible. Commands for obedience (lifestyle) do NOT result in salvation. Isn't it obvious that if it were, then salvation would be by works?

In fact, the direction that I'm sensing from your post is refuted quite clearly by Eph 2:8,9 -
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

We are saved by faith, not by works.

Read Revelation repeatedly and you will realize the importance of good works and deeds.

I have read Revelation repeatedly, as I have for all the other books of the NT.

So, I'll ask a question: what are the good works FOR? iow, bottom line.

For they will follow us everywhere like our shadow. Let us then make sure we keep the Lords commandments lest we get kicked out of kingdom of heaven ( read Matthew 7: 21-28)

Is that really what the passage says?

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.
26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching,

Yep. Just as I knew. There is nothing here about getting "kicked out of the kingdom of heaven".

In the first passage, v.21-23, we have religious people who thought that their works would get them into the kingdom. Just examine what they based their appeal on: "prophesy in Your name, drive out demons, perform many miracle in your Name".

Did Jesus refute those claims? No. He simply ignored what they said and got to the bottom of the issue. They had NO relationship with Him. Why? They never believed in Him. There is nothing to indicate that they did. So let's not assume what isn't said.

The second passage is about how to have salvation. When Jesus said "everyone who hears these words of Mine and puts them into practice" is a reference to accepting His claim of Messiah and believing in Him. This is salvation. Not any kind of lifestyle.

Those who try to include lifestyle changes into how to get saved are mixing apples and oranges. The fruit salad may taste good, but it is unbiblical.

The correct order from the Bible is faith in Christ for salvation (Jn 3:16), becoming a new creature (2 Cor 5:17) and being indwelt with the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:2,5).

Only after believing in Christ does lifestyle change become relevant. And it is relevant for eternal reward, not relevant for salvation.

Let's not get the cart before the horse, or put the cart on the horse.

 

[Johan]

I agree Johan but we ain't dead yet

Well if you do not believe it, it also can not happen.

But we are dead already.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

and there's plenty Jesus still around here that get's drowned out by the clutter .. Our schools and colleges are still full of young christians in the South, especially the sports teams and coaches .. Even I was invited to pray and speak at a local high school and I'm no preacher , ha, they were slouching in their seats and I told them to sit up straight like a man and quit laying down in those chairs, even the coaches sat up straight . I spoke on King David and his mighty men who went and fought the Philistines all the way to a well in Jerusalem to get their king the drink of water he desired, then when they said ''here King is your water'' David poured it out on the ground and said ''how can I drink this when you have none'' and then the unity and love in that camp because David loved God and they loved each other .. I watch many interviews of our college youth and seems every one mentions Jesus .. Here's one young man who'd rather talk about Jesus starts about 1:30

According to your witness a revival is coming.

 

[brujaq]

Well if you do not believe it, it also can not happen.

But we are dead already.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.




According to your witness a revival is coming.

I've done all the dying I intend to do except for the flesh . Are you ''born again'' ? We are alive and we got work to do

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"Actually, this WAS about a specific person, the incestuous man at the beginning of chapter 5. And v.5 indicates that he was saved and will remain so."

And I said this.

Nope not even close.

Verse 9 begins a general set of instructions about dealing with those who practice immortality among a Church community.

• I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.

Is people singular, or plural?

Person is singular.
People refers to more that one.


Sexually immoral people refers to people who are sexually immoral and is a general statement about no one in particular.


As we can see from the rest of the context, those who practice this will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10


We are called to sanctification, not immorality.


Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
Hebrews 12:14


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

And I said this.

Nope not even close.

Yes, you sure did say that.

And I pointed out why my statement was dead on correct. There's no reason to try to re-hash it.

Here is post #32 again, which supports my view:
1 Cor 5 begins with the problem: sexual immorality.
v.1 - It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife.

1 Cor 5 ends with the solution to the problem.
v.13 - God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

'nuff said.

 

[JLB]

Yes, you sure did say that.

And I pointed out why my statement was dead on correct. There's no reason to try to re-hash it.

Here is post #32 again, which supports my view:
1 Cor 5 begins with the problem: sexual immorality.
v.1 - It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife.

1 Cor 5 ends with the solution to the problem.
v.13 - God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

'nuff said.

• But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral

The solution that Paul gave the Corinthians about those inside the Church community was to put away the person who was practicing the evil, which was listed as sexual immorality.

This is not about unbelievers, who are outside the Church community, but believers who are practicing sexual immorality among the Church community.


9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” 1 Corinthians 5:9-13


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

• But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral

The solution that Paul gave the Corinthians about those inside the Church community was to put away the person who was practicing the evil, which was listed as sexual immorality.

This is not about unbelievers, who are outside the Church community, but believers who are practicing sexual immorality among the Church community.


9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” 1 Corinthians 5:9-13


JLB

There is nothing here that refutes my point. The entire chapter is about the problem of immorality and what the church is to do in such cases.