Justification and Sanctification

[FreeGrace]

There is no mention of the work “perfect” in Romans 2:6-8.

Hardly matters.

The words "continuance in doing good" doesn't mean "doing good some times", or "doing good most of the time", or anything other than DOING GOOD ALL THE TIME. That's what "continuance" means: continuing. Please look it up if my posts aren't to be believed.

And Paul made very clear that all men (everyone) sins and falls short of God's glory (Rom 3:23) and that everyone (both Jew and Gentile) are under sin (Rom 3:9). And that "there is none that does good" (so much for fulfilling the "continuance of doing good" in Rom 2:6-8), huh.

There is NO ONE who "continues to do good". Paul made that clear.

You are making up things about God’s word that doesn’t exist, then building your own man made theology around what isn’t in God’s word.

Here is what is plainly said in Romans 2:6-8.

It seems what is being made up is the notion that any human being can fulfill Rom 2:6-8.

So, let me ask: have you continued to do good your entire life?

Sanctification is the process by which we are being made holy.

Why would anyone conclude that Rom 2:6-8 is about the process of sanctification? That would be a huge mistake.

Those who embrace this process, seek for honor.

Yet, the verses aren't about what is being "embrasced" but "continuance in doing good", which Paul made clear that NO ONE in the human race can do. Why? Because "all have sinned" (Rom 3:23), "all are under sin" (Rom 3:9) and "there is NONE that is righteous" or does good" (Rom 3:10).

So your conclusions are faulty.

 

[ezra]

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

so all i have to do is just do good?

 

[ezra]

Hardly matters.

The words "continuance in doing good" doesn't mean "doing good some times", or "doing good most of the time", or anything other than DOING GOOD ALL THE TIME. That's what "continuance" means: continuing. Please look it up if my posts aren't to be believed.

And Paul made very clear that all men (everyone) sins and falls short of God's glory (Rom 3:23) and that everyone (both Jew and Gentile) are under sin (Rom 3:9). And that "there is none that does good" (so much for fulfilling the "continuance of doing good" in Rom 2:6-8), huh.

There is NO ONE who "continues to do good". Paul made that clear.


It seems what is being made up is the notion that any human being can fulfill Rom 2:6-8.

So, let me ask: have you continued to do good your entire life?


Why would anyone conclude that Rom 2:6-8 is about the process of sanctification? That would be a huge mistake.


Yet, the verses aren't about what is being "embrasced" but "continuance in doing good", which Paul made clear that NO ONE in the human race can do. Why? Because "all have sinned" (Rom 3:23), "all are under sin" (Rom 3:9) and "there is NONE that is righteous" or does good" (Rom 3:10).

So your conclusions are faulty.

my disagreement in this doing good. is 1. yes we are to do good. we have to put forth the effort .but no amount of just doing good is the key... paul wrote walk in the spirit mortify the flesh put on the new man take off the old man our salvation is based on GRACE AND GRACE ALONE

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said: ↑

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

so all i have to do is just do good?

That's what his posts certainly suggest. In spite of Paul's clear message that there none righteous (Rom 3:10), all are under sin (3:9) and all have sinned (3:23).

Therefore, there are NONE that can continue in doing good. Because all are sinners. Some do good more than others, but that's not what the passage teaches. Continuance in doing good means all the time.

 

[FreeGrace]

my disagreement in this doing good. is 1. yes we are to do good. we have to put forth the effort .but no amount of just doing good is the key... paul wrote walk in the spirit mortify the flesh put on the new man take off the old man our salvation is based on GRACE AND GRACE ALONE

Correct. No one goes to heaven by "doing good". It's by faith alone.

 

[JLB]

Hardly matters.

You are the one who made the claim that the verse implied the one who was seeking for honor and immortality needed to be perfect, so the burden is on you to prove this claim, when no such word appears or is claimed by the writer.



JLB

 

[JLB]

so all i have to do is just do good?

If you are born again, and are empowered by His Spirit, why would you choose to do evil?


JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB said: ↑

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

That's what his posts certainly suggest. In spite of Paul's clear message that there none righteous (Rom 3:10), all are under sin (3:9) and all have sinned (3:23).

Therefore, there are NONE that can continue in doing good. Because all are sinners. Some do good more than others, but that's not what the passage teaches. Continuance in doing good means all the time.

If you are born again, and are empowered by His Spirit, why would you choose to do evil?


We have been given all things that pertain to godliness.

• His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness

Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:2-4


Why practice ungodliness and obey unrighteousness if you have been given dominion over sin, and the power to put to death the deeds of the flesh?

Those who embrace the process of sanctification understand they have been given the power to walk in godliness and bear fruit unto holiness, and in the end receive eternal life.


JLB

 

[ezra]

If you are born again, and are empowered by His Spirit, why would you choose to do evil?


JLB

we shouldn't have you ever had a bad thought ?but that was not my point i said all i have to do is good . ? sometimes doing wrong is not always necessary evil.. we frown on adultery yet tend to like gossip colossians 3 : 8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. ever been ticked off to anger and wrath? yes we are empowered by his spirit... the Holy Spirit gives the power the ability to forsake sin i agree there are things we are suppose to do. but we can,t do it on our own

 

[ezra]

If you are born again, and are empowered by His Spirit, why would you choose to do evil?


JLB

Eureka a break through he replied to my post

 

[JLB]

we shouldn't have you ever had a bad thought ?but that was not my point i said all i have to do is good . ? sometimes doing wrong is not always necessary evil.. we frown on adultery yet tend to like gossip colossians 3 : 8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. ever been ticked off to anger and wrath? yes we are empowered by his spirit... the Holy Spirit gives the power the ability to forsake sin i agree there are things we are suppose to do. but we can,t do it on our own

Let’s try it again.

If you are born again, and are empowered by His Spirit, why would you choose to do evil?


JLB

 

[ezra]

Let’s try it again.

If you are born again, and are empowered by His Spirit, why would you choose to do evil?


JLB

nopers not going down that road again done gave a answer ..have you ever done evil . might i add define evil

 

[FreeGrace]

You are the one who made the claim that the verse implied the one who was seeking for honor and immortality needed to be perfect

I didn't imply anything. I pointed out that "continuance in doing good" doesn't mean "sometimes continue in doing good", or "mostly continuing in doing good". Continuance means just what it says: to continue.

Who continues to do good? No one, according to Paul. He wrote that "all are under sin" in 3:9, that "there is none good" in 3:10, and that all have sinned in 3:23.

So, please explain how anyone can fulfill continuing to do good after Paul wrote those things??

so the burden is on you to prove this claim, when no such word appears or is claimed by the writer.
JLB

Again and again, I've shown the proof directly from Scripture.

But since there is such disagreement, please explain how any sinful person can "continue to do good". What does that look like?

Have you continued to do good since you believed in Christ? And that means just what it says; continued. Not sometimes, or even most of the time, but continues to do so.

I eagerly await your answer.

 

[FreeGrace]

If you are born again, and are empowered by His Spirit, why would you choose to do evil?
JLB

Is this empowerment automatic, and beyond your own control??? If so, please provide actual Scripture that teaches this.

Because Paul was clear to teach that we (believes) are to STOP grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) and STOP quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:18).

How can one continue to do good when one IS grieving and/or quenching the Spirit? Please answer.

 

[GodsGrace]

Daer wondering
I believe you got the Word better than most pastors who are ( unknwowingly) deceiving church goers by making them belive their one-time acceptance of Christ will save them . These teachers often cite the verse from Old Testrament ( Genesis): Abraham believed and it was credited to him as rightousness. But the same Abraham was obedient to the hilt-----he was prepared to cut his son Isaac into pieces because the Lord God had asked him to. Why dont pastors teach THIS part of Abraham. God tested him severely and he passed! Because he trusted God and was willing to do whatever God willed him. Therefore as Christains, we must do what the Lord Jesus ( always) did -------" the will of God over His will" when we start doing that the kingdom heaven which is within us will be spereinced. Just by be;liveing in Jesus to get salvation will not save anybody UN:LESS that faith is proved through good works. Jesus said 15:5-6 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing..If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Jesus repeatedly warned of impending judgment for non obedient believers. We must bear good fruit else Jesus will surely CHOP us off.
Again stop coveting salvation! But seek joy in serving the Lord... following Him, keeping His commandments.
John 12:25 ►
Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
So stop craving salvation, dear friends. Not one human on this erath has a clue who all will be saved. Only the ones whose name appears in the Lamb's book of life will be saved . And if your name does not happen to be there, no one can help you. This is the truth . take it or leave it. Therefore i urge you brothers and sisters rather than coveting salvation seek to serve the Lord and keep His commanements ---as best as you can.
As dear wondering had once very aptly put it:
"Let us do our best
and leave to Christ the rest"
This to me is TRUE Christianity. and I believe wondering got it better than the big name Martin Luther. I hope someday we can all write to pastors throughout the length and breadth of the globe urging pastors n teachers of the Word to INCLUDE obedience/ good works, if they at all wish to "guarantee" salvation to their flock.
The kangaroo Christianity that is being, unfortunately, taught in the majority of churches is churning out a bunch of ineffective Christians who are so sure of their salvation that they have stopped bothering about helping or converting any hearts. Many continue to live a sinful lifestyle. Their reasoning is simple. " I am saved, why should I care? None can take my salvation away . My pastor said so!"
Now, my friends, this is kangaroo Christianity. it serves the devil and not the Lord. the devil must be laughing his head off ( for a more honorable word ) that the churches are producing a whole host of Couch Christians! secure in their (false) notion of salvation. Thus according to me not the sweet Word of the Lord is being taught but HERESY! and it makes me very very upset. through innumerable verses, I can prove that no obedience no salvation
Yet all above is only my own opinion. Read the word extensively ( non judgmentally and neutrally) and uninfluenced by what pastors have taught you and you will see the truth and that truth will set you free ...............................from heresy --------------RS

Well RS, you've said it all ! There is not much left to be said.
I agree with everything. The pastors that teach that works is a bad word are doing a disservice to their congregation. They will have to answer to God for this:
James 3:1
Luke 12:48

You say that pastors are doing this unknowingly.
I certainly hope so, but it sure does seem to fill up those churches.

We can say that although works all by themselves do not save us because they do not allow us to be born of spirit,
John 3:5 we CAN say that it's these works that show that we are indeed saved.
Those that love Jesus will want to obey Jesus.
John 14:15

 

[ezra]

The pastors that teach that works

to many get the type works twisted working for one salvation or working to keep salvation is false, but to work for the Lord after salvation is correct

 

[FreeGrace]

Well RS, you've said it all ! There is not much left to be said.
I agree with everything. The pastors that teach that works is a bad word are doing a disservice to their congregation. They will have to answer to God for this

Hey, let's be clear here. Works is BAD regarding salvation, because no one is saved by works. But works is the ONLY way to be rewarded in eternity. That's always the issue. Not just "works" without any context.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey, let's be clear here. Works is BAD regarding salvation, because no one is saved by works. But works is the ONLY way to be rewarded in eternity. That's always the issue. Not just "works" without any context.

We here who enjoy WORKING for God cannot help it if you and others who feel as you do cannot agree. I know that works has become a bad word. Sometimes I say deeds, sometimes I stick to works. Jesus Himself used the word works.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Titus 3:14 - And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Titus 3:8 - [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

James 2:14-20 - What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Matthew 5:16 - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

James 2:20-24 - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Titus 2:7 - In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine [shewing] uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Hebrews 13:21 - Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I've given up telling you that WORKS DO NOT SAVE.
Epeshians 2:8

But once we ARE SAVED, works are necessary to fulfill the requirement of remaining in the Kingdom of God which is right here on Earth.

Works are a sign of your salvation.
Those who love Jesus are happy to do HIS work here.
We know a tree by its fruit.
Jesus told us what our work is.
Read Mathew 5 to 7.
Mathew 25.
If we do not do good deeds, of what use are we to God's Kingdom?
Did He come here only to save us or also to make us members of His Kingdom?
And if we are to be members, are we not to follow the rules of membership?
John 14:15

 

[Kidron]

But once we ARE SAVED, works are necessary to fulfill the requirement of remaining in the Kingdom of God which is right here on Earth.

" THE requirement Of remaining in the Kingdom".

Wondering,
Isn't this just another way of saying you can lose your salvation if you dont do the "works" that YOU feel that are necessary after you are saved?
Or are you not saying that "being in the kingdom" is also the same as being Saved and remaining saved?
Am i missing something?
I think my IQ is turned on, so, im pretty sure i gotcha message in that comment.
And in that case, if that is what you are saying..... then you are stating that works and not Grace ALONE, is what keeps you saved.
= Welcome To what the POPE teaches.
And the problem with that perspective is very simple....
"Grace", is , IS, The Blood of Jesus and the Atonement, (GRACE IS JESUS) exactly the same as (ETERNAL LIFE IS JESUS) and God does not offer anything else that can redeem us or save us OR keep up saved OR give us eternal life.

There is no scripture ever given by the Holy Spirit that says....."once you are saved, you must do (anything) to stay saved".
This doctrine does not exit in the bible, or in the mind of God, or in the finished work of Jesus on the Cross, but it definitely exists like a wildfire in the minds of a lot of people who talk endlessly about "works."..........>.
And Yes, James says your "faith without works is dead", but he does not say your salvation is lost without works.
However, Thats what NT heretics say, and James isn't one of those.
So, no need for anyone to recompose the meaning of the scriptures for the sake of trying to refute OSAS.
Which, of course, always finds us at the same disconnect, which is......how can anything such as your works or deeds, ...which cannot and do not save you before you are SAVED by God through Christ,.....how can they (works) then gain such importance to some people that they think that what cant saved you before you Trusted in Jesus, can now cause you to no longer be saved if you dont do them?
This is not only Illogical, its kinda crazy., actually...
"Well, i know that i cant be saved by works (before im saved) , but, i can be lost if i dont to X, Y, Z, and endure to the end, and hope to God i never lose my faith, after im saved"""".... = ummmmmmmmmm, TILT".
See all that?
Its nonsense.
Theological tinker toy self righteousness nonsense.

So, the issue with all this adding works to the blood of Jesus as a sort of "cross helper", is that once you go there, you have now discounted and discredited the finished work of Jesus on the Cross, = as ALL that is necessary for our Salvation.
And so, just rip John 14:6 out of the bible, as apparently when Jesus said He is THE WAY, then some people would argue..."no, not necessarily Jesus, after all, what about WORKS".

 

[ezra]

Well, i know that i cant be saved by works (before im saved) , but, i can be lost if i dont to X, Y, Z, and endure to the end, and hope to God i never lose my faith, after im saved"""".... = ummmmmmmmmm, TILT".
See all that?

this is what i more or less keep reading into all this. allmost like the finished work at the cross is not enough