Justification and Sanctification

[GodsGrace]

I am puzzlled. The Lord never forced anyone to do anything. The parable of the prodigal son, the
tenant keepers of the vineyard, the returning King, the wedding banquet.

But the ways of the enemy are intimidation, domination, orders, punishments, torture, bondage.
Now how is it that some are believing, God forces believers who make a commitment, but then
change their minds are then forced into the Kingdom, whether they want to or not.

Is the Kingdom of heaven full of conscripted recruits, egged on by seeing themselves saved from
hell by a short fling of fancy with the Lord? Did not read that anywhere is scripture, rather the opposite.
Those who play around with the things of God, get literally swallowed up by the ground, struck dead
by Gods word, stand is fear and trembling before the great throne and the King they have trampled on.

21> The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."
22> But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
23> to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,
24> to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
25> See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?
Heb 12:21-25

14> Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
15> See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
Heb 12:14-15

10> You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.
11> It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"
12> So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Rom 14:10-12

16> Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil.
17> For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
18> because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
Rom 14:16-18

:nod

 

[PeterJens]

Your previous postings of the ‘verse’ have been misquotations of the verse and a snip of Paul’s sentence. But yes, it’s much more helpful to quote the full sentence properly.
How about helping me and the forum further and answering the question. Who is Paul quoting in the v6 portion?
Well there you go again. Yes the Who is God in v6!
Yet what Paul actually quoted was; “will render to each one according to his deeds”
Why change “his deeds” (Paul’s words) to ‘our deeds’ (your words)???

I hope you do not mind, I am not sure where JLB said "our deeds".
The verse is third person talking about the deeds of people. It sounds like you want to make
a point where JLB has said something wrong, except there appears nothing wrong with what
he has written.

Am I missing something, or are you seeing something that is not there?

Sorry if this seems rude, I am just wanting to know the truth of the point.
Thankyou for your help, God bless you, Peter

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is what Jesus said about eternal life:

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

Jesus made 3 points about eternal security in John's gospel.
POINT 1: those who believe HAVE eternal life. This means they are given eternal life, a gift of God, when they believe, because the Bible says nothing about receiving this gift after any kind of probationary period.
John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:47, 11;25-27, 20:31, 1 Tim 1:16, 1 John 5:13

POINT 2: Jesus Himself is the Giver of the gift of eternal life. John 10:28

POINT 3: Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

So, IF...a believer who walked according to the flesh will eternally die, which means to perish, then Jesus was flat wrong.

Now, if there is disagreement, please address each point and show from Scripture why there is disagreement.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

It's quite odd that your focus is one only 2 passage, both dealing with deeds. I've given many many verses that plainly tell us how one receives eternal life; by faith in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

Free.
Your proposition is unsaved people do not have a spirit.

That's correct. That's what being "born again" and "regeneration" are all about. Giving life to a dead human spirit.

I quoted a lot of scripture where people talk about their spirit.
And the scriptures are in the context that everyone has a spirit.

No, they were speaking of themselves. Were those speaking in Scripture saved or unsaved people?

What did Jesus tell the Samaritan woman about how to worship God? John 4:24. They must worship IN SPIRIT and in truth.

That means they MUST have a human spirit in order to worship God. Unsaved people need to be regenerated in order to worship God.

 

[chessman]

I hope you do not mind, I am not sure where JLB said "our deeds".

In his quote/misquote, repeated below for your convenance . Here, let me bold/underline it for you:

The Who is verse 6 is God... who will render to each one of us according to our deeds.

Am I missing something,

Yes. An answer to my question; who is Paul quoting in v6? It’s helpful in Bible study to know the answer.

are you seeing something that is not there?

No.

Sorry if this seems rude,

Okay.

 

[FreeGrace]

Faith alone is not the only requirement for salvation......
You must show the fruits of the Spirit

Which is just another way of saying that salvation is by one's fruits. Or deeds. Or works. That's what the Pharisees thought too.

BY their fruits you will know them.....
Matthew 7:16[/QUOTE[]
What it clearly doesn't say is "by their fruits they will be saved". Not anywhere in Scripture.

Faith alone cannot save
James 2:17

Maybe someonw should correct Paul because of the answer he gave to a jailer:
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Nothing about works, deeds, or fruits. Nor anywhere in the only evangelistic gospel, John's.

 

[JLB]

Who is Paul quoting in the v6 portion?

Proverbs 24:12.


Jesus said the same thing.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29


There are two ways for the born again Christian, who is empowered by God's Spirit, to live their life on earth.

1. According to the flesh.
2. According to the Spirit.

If you have been born again and filled with God's Spirit, then you have the ability to reign and rule in dominion over the sin that dwells in your flesh, as well as the devil who seeks to entice you into destructive plan of sin and defeat.

Living life according to the Spirit, is the way of victory and blessing, and peace.

Living life according to the dictates of the flesh, seeking to gratify it's lustful desires of sin, whereby we become enslaved again to sin and the devil, once we have been set free, is the way of defeat, depression, and bondage, and leads to death; eternal death.


12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:12-13



JLB

 

[chessman]

The verse is third person talking about the deeds of people.

Absolutely, positively and provably it’s genitive, 3rd person, SINGULAR (not plural) “his deeds”!
Not ‘our deeds’ or ‘the deeds of people’.

That’s the point!

http://biblehub.com/grammar/ppro-gm3s.htm

 

[chessman]

Proverbs 24:12.

Yep, and worth a read:

if you say, “Look, we do not know this,” does not he who weighs hearts perceive it? And he who keeps your soul, he knows and will repay humankind according to his deeds.​

Proverbs 24:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Proverbs 24:12&version=LEB

Last question:
In the proverb Paul quotes, Who keeps your soul?

 

[PeterJens]

That's correct. That's what being "born again" and "regeneration" are all about. Giving life to a dead human spirit.
No, they were speaking of themselves. Were those speaking in Scripture saved or unsaved people?
What did Jesus tell the Samaritan woman about how to worship God? John 4:24. They must worship IN SPIRIT and in truth.
That means they MUST have a human spirit in order to worship God. Unsaved people need to be regenerated in order to worship God.

I have a problem with the proposition people do not have a spirit.
If you read scripture, spirit and soul are used interchangeably. The spirit of a person is their inner being or
consciousness. There is no scripture which says this exists separate from our bodies, though we know it
exists within everyone.

Often the term spirit is used to describe how they are feeling, in good spirits or bad spirits.
Now when Jesus says in spirit, I read this to mean from the heart, with all that they are, not just words
or performance.

Now there is gnostic teaching about being born from on high with an eternal spirit that enters the body
through faith. I saw a tv program where a "prophet" asked people to pray for this eternal spirit to enter
them now. To me this was absurd, and simply meaningless.

Jesus talked of Peters revelation that He was the Christ, the Messiah was only possible because of
the Father revealing it to Him. Now as I said before the new covenant is an intimate relationship with
God, where the holy of holies now dwells within.
This is the born again experience, which the apostles testified to happening to the gentiles, which they
had only seen before among the jewish believers.

So when we talk about the old testament, we are not talking about this intimacy, but a following of law
and obedience with sacrifices to appease sin. It is these people who talk about having a spirit.
Now if one says they are actually born again, then what is new about the new covenant, and the relationship
with God, that the indwelling Holy Spirit provided.

The reason why the curtain was torn in two, was to demonstrate such a change in Kingdom relationship.
If you want to propose something else, feel free, but this is my observations and convictions based on
scripture and teaching. God bless you. Praise the Lord we have salvation through the cross and confirmed
by the Holy Spirit in our hearts daily.

 

[JLB]

let me thank you for twisting what i posted.i must say you done a great job... let me try this again please read very carefully first off practicing the works of the flesh in the manner you posted ..is not characteristics of the spirit filled life nor of a born again believer
Galatians 5:19-21King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past,
that{{{{ they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.}}} will we sin yes .... the spirit will prick bring conviction which should lead to repentance /.. i hope this clears your confusion up Born again== new creation in Christ . i realize you believe one can lose their salvation .. please understand this is not what my point is can or can not...

Insults and accusations are answers.

Please just answer the question or don’t.

It’s up to you.



Please explain how a born again Christian is not saved ?

Is there something more a person must do to be saved, other than believe?


Born again Christians who choose to live according to the flesh, practicing the works of the flesh, when they have been empowered by the Holy Spirit to live their life according to the Spirit, will suffer the wrath of God on Judgement Day.

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

JLB

 

[PeterJens]

Absolutely, positively and provably it’s genitive, 3rd person, SINGULAR (not plural) “his deeds”!
Not ‘our deeds’ or ‘the deeds of people’.

That’s the point!

http://biblehub.com/grammar/ppro-gm3s.htm

SO your reading of the verse is
God "will give to each person according to what God has done."
rom 2:6

So God will give people something because of what God has done.
If God has done it, He does not need to do anything else because He has already done
it and completed it.

But the passage is all about
7> To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
8> But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
rom 2:7-8

The verses 7 and 8 explain what Paul meant in verse 6, God will give eternal life or God with give wrath
and anger, as a result of presistence in doing good, or being self-seeking.
If one replaces the word he with God, then God is doing the persevering, or God is doing the self-seeking
which makes no sense.

I can see why people want to avoid this being a reward for believers, because how could believers get
wrath and anger, so the words must be changed, but that to my mind is just rewriting scripture to suit ones
own interpretation. I hope you see my point, because it seems very clear to me, and I wonder why you
want to change a simple set of statements that Paul is making very clear.

God bless you, Peter

 

[JLB]

Yep, and worth a read:

if you say, “Look, we do not know this,” does not he who weighs hearts perceive it? And he who keeps your soul, he knows and will repay humankind according to his deeds.​

Proverbs 24:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Proverbs 24:12&version=LEB

Last question:
In the proverb Paul quotes, Who keeps your soul?

God will judge each person, on that Day according to our deeds.

...the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.

Paul teaches extensively about this very thing.

Practicing the works of the flesh is not what we are called to do, but rather practice righteousness.

We will all be Judged according to our deeds.

Let’s be those who live our lives according to the Spirit, whereby we express our faith through acts of love rather than living to gratify our flesh.

But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:2-8



JLB

 

[JLB]

SO your reading of the verse is
God "will give to each person according to what God has done."
rom 2:6

So God will give people something because of what God has done.
If God has done it, He does not need to do anything else because He has already done
it and completed it.

But the passage is all about
7> To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
8> But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
rom 2:7-8

The verses 7 and 8 explain what Paul meant in verse 6, God will give eternal life or God with give wrath
and anger, as a result of presistence in doing good, or being self-seeking.
If one replaces the word he with God, then God is doing the persevering, or God is doing the self-seeking
which makes no sense.

I can see why people want to avoid this being a reward for believers, because how could believers get
wrath and anger, so the words must be changed, but that to my mind is just rewriting scripture to suit ones
own interpretation. I hope you see my point, because it seems very clear to me, and I wonder why you
want to change a simple set of statements that Paul is making very clear.

God bless you, Peter

Like!

 

[JLB]

Which is just another way of saying that salvation is by one's fruits. Or deeds. Or works. That's what the Pharisees thought too.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

Please explain what you disagree with in this verse.


Sanctification is at work in those continually seek for honor.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Yep, and worth a read:

if you say, “Look, we do not know this,” does not he who weighs hearts perceive it? And he who keeps your soul, he knows and will repay humankind according to his deeds.​

Proverbs 24:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Proverbs 24:12&version=LEB

Last question:
In the proverb Paul quotes, Who keeps your soul?

Why would a born again Christian, who has the Spirit of Christ in them, want to live to gratify the sinful desires of the flesh.

The only reason I can think of is they have not been taught biblical doctrine about sanctification, rather they have been taught OSAS.



JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

My friend, I believe we are saved for good works, and not saved by them.

Well said.

 

[chessman]

SO your reading of the verse is
God "will give to each person according to what God has done."
rom 2:6

Is this a question about my ‘reading’ of the passage or a statement of what I believe? Hopefully the former and not the later.

Again, my reading is that the personal pronoun (“his” in his deeds, IS identifying to whom the works belong) and I am simply pointing out that it is genitive, singular, 3rd person in the Greek. It is NOT plural nor 1st person (as misidentified by both yourself and JLB ).


It’s just a fact of the grammar that it’s mood MUST match the noun/subject to whom the deeds belong.
Care to identify what person within the sentence matches the genitive mood???

So God will give people something because of what God has done.

Yep.

But the passage is all about
7> To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
8> But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
rom 2:7-8

Actually, as I pointed out, v6 is literally a quote of Proverb 24:12 (which is about God keeping a soul based on His weighing of the heart (not at all about the works of the person).

The verses 7 and 8 explain what Paul meant in verse 6

There’s no explanation needed of v6. It says what it says. And does NOT say anything about ‘our’ or people’s (plural) deeds (1st person).

God will give eternal life or God with give wrath
and anger,

Correct. Two options of God’s work.

as a result of presistence in doing good, or being self-seeking.

Correct.
Those who self-seek get wrath.

If one replaces the word he with God, then God is doing the persevering, or God is doing the self-seeking
which makes no sense.

It’s not a matter of replacing anything but recognizing the case, mood and subject of the sentence. Oh, and the Proverb.

that to my mind is just rewriting scripture to suit ones
own interpretation.

The only re-writing is occuring by people who have changed “his deeds” into ‘our deeds’ or ‘deeds of people’.

I hope you see my point, because it seems very clear to me, and I wonder why you
want to change a simple set of statements that Paul is making very clear.

I’ve changed nothing.

 

[ezra]

Please just answer the question or don’t.

i already did the original way i posted.. you asked me a question i never said .i never insulted you or use a causation let me refresh your memory then i will show you what you asked...

ezra said: ↑
let me thank you for twisting what i posted.i must say you done a great job... let me try this again please read very carefully first off practicing the works of the flesh in the manner you posted ..is not characteristics of the spirit filled life nor of a born again believer
Galatians 5:19-21King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past,
that{{{{ they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.}}} will we sin yes .... the spirit will prick bring conviction which should lead to repentance /.. i hope this clears your confusion up Born again== new creation in Christ . i realize you believe one can lose their salvation .. please understand this is not what my point is can or can not...

this is my answer using scripture

Please explain how a born again Christian is not saved ?

Is there something more a person must do to be saved, other than believe?


Born again Christians who choose to live according to the flesh, practicing the works of the flesh, when they have been empowered by the Holy Spirit to live their life according to the Spirit, will suffer the wrath of God on Judgement Day.

let me say this one more time.......... i do not believe a true blue born again blood bought child of the king filled with the spirit connected to the TRUE VINE living with the works of the flesh instead of the fruit of the spirit -----------> WAS EVER SAVED that is my answer once again i hope this clarify s your question please also understand we do not agree with each other on your interpretation of certain scriptures. thus will be our disagreement.. THAT IS OK i dont want you to believe like me and i dont want to be and believe just like you... our common ground is Christ was crucified resurrected according to the scriptures .if this does not answer your question i am sorry .i gave my first reply with scriptue re:works of the flesh ""they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."""

 

[ezra]

Why would a born again Christian, who has the Spirit of Christ in them, want to live to gratify the sinful desires of the flesh.

The only reason I can think of is they have not been taught biblical doctrine about sanctification, rather they have been taught OSAS.



JLB

so if i might ask a question? would it be your point that those who are of the osas belief are wrong and you are right because of you being osnas ,, this appears not appears what your saying.... my self i am a know so salvation belief