Justification and Sanctification

[JLB]

my self i am a know so salvation belief

2

 

[JLB]

let me say this one more time.......... i do not believe a true blue born again blood bought child of the king filled with the spirit connected to the TRUE VINE living with the works of the flesh instead of the fruit of the spirit -----------> WAS EVER SAVED that is my answer once again i hope this clarify s your question

That certainly clarifies it.

You do not believe a born again Christian, filled with the Spirit, who practices the works of the flesh, was ever saved.

Do I understand you correctly?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Is this a question about my ‘reading’ of the passage or a statement of what I believe? Hopefully the former and not the later.

Again, my reading is that the personal pronoun (“his” in his deeds, IS identifying to whom the works belong) and I am simply pointing out that it is genitive, singular, 3rd person in the Greek. It is NOT plural nor 1st person (as misidentified by both yourself and JLB ).


It’s just a fact of the grammar that it’s mood MUST match the noun/subject to whom the deeds belong.
Care to identify what person within the sentence matches the genitive mood???

There is no amount of “explanation” in the world that will change the fact that God will render to “each one according to his deeds”.

• Eternal life will go to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

• God’s wrath will go to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:5b-8



JLB

 

[JLB]

Yep, and worth a read:

if you say, “Look, we do not know this,” does not he who weighs hearts perceive it? And he who keeps your soul, he knows and will repay humankind according to his deeds.​

Proverbs 24:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Proverbs 24:12&version=LEB

Last question:
In the proverb Paul quotes, Who keeps your soul?

Just as soon as you answer my question.

Why would a born again Christian, who has the Spirit of Christ in them, want to live to gratify the sinful desires of the flesh.





JLB

 

[ezra]

That certainly clarifies it.

You do not believe a born again Christian, filled with the Spirit, who practices the works of the flesh, was ever saved.

Do I understand you correctly?


JLB

what DOES THE BIBLE SAY....?

 

[ezra]

2

SO YOU DONT KNOW IF YOUR SAVED OR NOT or are you one of these who has to get resaved everyday

 

[PeterJens]

Is this a question about my ‘reading’ of the passage or a statement of what I believe? Hopefully the former and not the later.

Again, my reading is that the personal pronoun (“his” in his deeds, IS identifying to whom the works belong) and I am simply pointing out that it is genitive, singular, 3rd person in the Greek. It is NOT plural nor 1st person (as misidentified by both yourself and JLB ).

It’s just a fact of the grammar that it’s mood MUST match the noun/subject to whom the deeds belong.
Care to identify what person within the sentence matches the genitive mood???
Yep.
Actually, as I pointed out, v6 is literally a quote of Proverb 24:12 (which is about God keeping a soul based on His weighing of the heart (not at all about the works of the person).
There’s no explanation needed of v6. It says what it says. And does NOT say anything about ‘our’ or people’s (plural) deeds (1st person).
Correct. Two options of God’s work.
Correct.
Those who self-seek get wrath.
It’s not a matter of replacing anything but recognizing the case, mood and subject of the sentence. Oh, and the Proverb.
The only re-writing is occuring by people who have changed “his deeds” into ‘our deeds’ or ‘deeds of people’.
I’ve changed nothing.

I am sorry chessman, the translators and commentaries do not agree with you on Rom 2:6-7

6> Make no mistake: In the end you get what's coming to you--
7> Real Life for those who work on God's side,
8> but to those who insist on getting their own way and take the path of least resistance, Fire!
Message

6> For He will render to every man according to his works [justly, as his deeds deserve]:
7> To those who by patient persistence in well-doing [ springing from piety] seek [unseen but sure] glory and honor and [ the eternal blessedness of] immortality, He will give eternal life.
8> But for those who are self-seeking and self-willed and disobedient to the Truth but responsive to wickedness, there will be indignation and wrath.
NKJV

6> He will render to each one according to his works:
7> to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8> but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
ESV Bible

6> He will reward each one according to his works:
7> eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,
8> but wrath and anger to those who live in selfish ambition and do not obey the truth but follow unrighteousness.
Net bible

Let us look at the grammer of the sentence.
The object of the sentence is He - God and the other object is each one ie individuals.
Now where one uses a term "He" or "it" or "them" after one has declared the object the assumption is it refers
back to the previous object. So God, rewards renders to, each one, an individual according to the individuals works.

Now if one means Gods works, one would write Gods works to differentiate that one is referring to God and not
the individual.

As I stated before, God is not going to reward people for Gods own works.
Another reason why God is rewarding people, because He declares this throughout the bible.

12> Rejoice and be glad because your reward is great in heaven, for they persecuted the prophets before you in the same way.
Matt 5:12

Be careful not to display your righteousness merely to be seen by people. Otherwise you have no reward with your Father in heaven.
Matt 6:1

And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you.
Matt 6:4

41> For I tell you the truth, whoever gives you a cup of water because you bear Christ’s name will never lose his reward.
Mark 9:41

8> The one who plants and the one who waters work as one, but each will receive his reward according to his work.
1 Cor 3:8

35> So do not throw away your confidence, because it has great reward.
Heb 10:35

7> Does the family of Jacob say, ‘The LORD’s patience can’t be exhausted – he would never do such things’? To be sure, my commands bring a reward for those who obey them,
Micah 2:7

7> The LORD your God has blessed you in all the work of your hands.
Deut 2:7

1> Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers.
2> But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night.
Psalm 1:1-2

5> Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession.
Exodus 19:5

24> The LORD commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the LORD our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today.
Deut 6:24

God says simply here are my ways, and I will bless you, reward you, if you walk in them or judge you
and punish you if you do not.

Paul carries on this theme, so interpreting "his works" as the individuals work is consistent theologically
as well as grammatically.

 

[PeterJens]

Rom 2:6 commentary response

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible
Who will render - That is, who will make retribution as a righteous Judge; or who will give to every man as he deserves.

To every man - To each one. This is a general principle, and it is clear that in this respect God would deal with the Jew as he does with the Gentile. This general principle the apostle is establishing, that he may bring it to bear on the Jew, and to show that he cannot escape simply because he is a Jew.

According to his deeds - That is, as he deserves; or God will be just, and will treat every man as he ought to be treated, or according to his character. The word “deeds” ( ἔργα erga)is sometimes applied to the external conduct. But it is plain that this is not its meaning here. It denotes everything connected with conduct, including the acts of the mind, the motives, the principles, as well as the mere external act. Our word character more aptly expresses it than any single word. It is not true that God will treat people according to their external conduct: but the whole language of the Bible implies that he will judge people according to the whole of their conduct, including their thoughts, and principles, and motives; that is, as they deserve. The doctrine of this place is abundantly taught elsewhere in the Bible, Proverbs 24:12; Matthew 16:27; Revelation 20:12; Jeremiah 32:19. It is to be observed here that the apostle does not say that people will be rewarded for their deeds, (compare Luke 17:10,) but according to κατά katatheir deeds. Christians will be saved on account of the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ, Titus 3:5, but still the rewards of heaven will be according to their works; that is, they who have labored most, and been most faithful, shall receive the highest reward, or their fidelity in their Master‘s service shall be the measure or rule according to which the rewards of heaven shall be distributed, Matthew 25:14-29. Thus, the ground or reason why they are saved shall be the merits of the Lord Jesus. The measure of their happiness shall be according to their character and deeds. On what principle God will distribute his rewards the apostle proceeds immediately to state.

https://www.studylight.org/commentary/romans/2-6.html

 

[chessman]

Romans 2:5b-8

There is no such thing as Romans 2:5a sentence and a 2:b sentence in the NKJV. Verses 5-10 is one big long sentence, not an a and b sentence in one numbered verse which sometimes exists.

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.​

Romans 2:5-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 2:5-10&version=NKJV

To properly quote the snip of the sentence above (though it’s obvious why that’s a bad idea), you’d use ellipses indicating to your post readers that you’ve not quoted a portion of 2:5 that you do not wish to post (for some reason). Assuming that it’s not relevant to your point, is a mistake. Like this:

.,, God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.​

Romans 2:5-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 2:5-10&version=NKJV

At least then the reader can see that you’ve decided to ellipsis out a portion and they can go read the portion that directly states these wrath-bound people have unrepentant/hard hearts and the reader can decide for themselves if people without repentant hearts are indeed ‘born again’ as you claim. I for one, do not believe someone who has no repentance in their hearts (that’s what the word Paul used for these wrath-receivers means) is born-again. Do you have any proof that someone without any repentance is born-again???

At least by using ellipses, your readers can tell that you have cut out the portion of his sentence that explains Paul’s sentence is indeed identifying these wrath receivers as (and I quote) those with “impenitent heart”.

Just as soon as you answer my question.

You have previously failed to answer three direct questions of mine to you related to the very Passages you posted. I was waiting on your answers. Additionally, I’ve already addressed your question.

If you believe your question is referring to Romans 2:5-10, the answer is in the part you snip out. At this point in the letter, Paul is talking about those WITHOUT repent hearts. Yet you snip that portion out.

If it’s simply an unrelated general question the answer is there in your question:

Why would a born again Christian, who has the Spirit of Christ in them, want to live to gratify the sinful desires of the flesh.

Until born-again, born from the Spirit above (thru repentance and believing in Christ, unlike those unrepentant Paul addressed in v5) Christians are given new flesh, we sometimes struggle against our un-born again flesh just as Paul did. But this has nothing to do with Romans 2:5-10 because Paul (not me) tells us these wrath-bound treasures have unrepentant/hard hearts.

 

[PeterJens]

12> Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
James 1:12

8> Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
2 Tim 4:8

25> Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.
1 Cor 9:25

13> Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom.
James 3:13

12> Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
1 Peter 2:12

4> For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5> if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6> if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7> and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8> (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
9> if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
2 Peter 2:4-9

24> And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.
Heb 10:24

 

[chessman]

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible

Let’s assume you agree with Rev Barnes’ commentary on this passage as I mostly do.

It says zero/NADA against the point I made. “his” is singular, genitive, 3rd person. Proving it’s not ‘our deeds’ or ‘people’s deeds’ Paul mentions in the verse.

It is to be observed here that the apostle does not say that people will be rewarded for their deeds,

Correct. That’s my point!

Further this great Americam abolitionist (Rev Barnes) was a Presbyterian minister.
He was a Calvinist, as this commentary on Romans indicates.

 

[Johan]

Actually I am your Mother in Christ.
====I don't think so.....I'm 72. You might be my sister in Christ, if so, than that would make me your "brother in Christ."
====In our Saviors Grace
====Douglas Summers

Yep. I know it sounds wrong. But remember our New Life in Christ has nothing to do with our physical age. It is about our New Age in Christ. Some grew more and faster than others because they are more dedicated.

Mark 4:
20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

And I grew up in Him.

Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

And when I was fully born the marriage took place.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/his-wife.68761/

And now God has a Wife and His Children has a Mother.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/our-children.71135/

 

[GodsGrace]

I hope you do not mind, I am not sure where JLB said "our deeds".
The verse is third person talking about the deeds of people. It sounds like you want to make
a point where JLB has said something wrong, except there appears nothing wrong with what
he has written.

Am I missing something, or are you seeing something that is not there?

Sorry if this seems rude, I am just wanting to know the truth of the point.
Thankyou for your help, God bless you, Peter

It's not rude Peter.
I myself wonder about this many times...

 

[FreeGrace]

I have a problem with the proposition people do not have a spirit.

Regardless, how about dealing with the verses and concepts I've already shared, if there is disagreement. I have given Scripture that supports my view.

This all begins in Genesis, in 2:17 where the Lord warns Adam and the woman about eating from the forbidden tree. No English translation does it justice, but instead of "in the day you eat of it, you will surely die", the literal Hebrew, which it seems everyone ignores, is "in the day you eat of it, dying, you shall die."

iow, death is menioned twice. Some simply dismiss this as a Hebraism, the doubling of a word for emphasis.

However, since it's quite obvious that neither Adam nor the woman fell down dead after eating that fruit, they SURE DIDN'T physically die that day. So we need to understand what was really said.

The word "dying" refers to the natural process that leads to physical death. We know that they both lived for hundreds of years AFTER eating that fruit. So then, since God never lies or makes any mistakes, what exactly did die "on that day"? None other than their spirits. That's what died on that day. And we know the result of having no spirit (no living spirit). They hid from the Lord when He came calling. They had no capacity for relationship or fellowship. Which is exactly what Jesus was referring to at the well with the Samaritan woman, when He said: God is Spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the spirit and in truth.” in John 4:24.

Notice the that "Spirit" is capitalized when said of God, but not capitalized at the end of the sentence. What Jesus was saying is that one MUST HAVE a functioning (living) human spirit in order to worship God.

Which brings us to what is being "born AGAIN" or RE-generated. Don't those words have specific meaning? Of course they do.

When a person comes to faith in Christ, they become a NEW creation, per 2 Cor 5:17. So, what's NEW? They now have a functioning living human spirit.

So, before a person comes to faith in Christ, they are considered spiritually dead. What does that mean? It means their human spirit is DEAD. Not functioning. No ability to worship God.

If you read scripture, spirit and soul are used interchangeably.

Not in every circumstance. 1 Thess 5:23 notes 3 parts of a believer.

And Heb 4:12 notes the division of soul and spirit. And compares this division with the material physical "joints and marrow". So not only does the author compare between the immaterial and immaterial, he goes even further.

Just as "joints and marrow" are NOT THE SAME THING, neither are the soul and spirit.

Bone marrow exists within bone. Joints exist between bones. They ARE NOT THE SAME THING. So neither are the soul and spirit.

Now, given this explanation, I care not for opinions of others. I have given Scripture to explain and support my conclusions.

If there is disagreement, one MUST deal with these verses and my points.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please explain how a born again Christian is not saved ?

What I'd love to see is your explanation of HOW a born again Christian can perish, since Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

Is there something more a person must do to be saved, other than believe?

Since Jesus gave NO EXCEPTIONS to recipients of eternal life for never perishing in John 10:28, if there are exceptions, why didn't He make that totally clear in John 10:28?

 

[FreeGrace]

God will judge each person, on that Day according to our deeds.

And remember that Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28.

And that those who believe POSSESS eternal life. John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-27, 20:31, 1 John 5:13.

 

[FreeGrace]

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

Please explain what you disagree with in this verse.

I have, and I will again, gladly.

The key is "patient continuance in doing good". After Paul wrote that, he went on to state that there is NONE righteous, no, not one. 3:10. And that ALL are under sin in 3:9. And that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God in 3:23.

So that PROVES that no human can fulfill 2:7. But good luck trying. That's what the Pharisees hoped for.

 

[FreeGrace]

Why would a born again Christian, who has the Spirit of Christ in them, want to live to gratify the sinful desires of the flesh.

A better question is why Paul would command believers to STOP grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) and to STOP quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19). Along with those commands, why did He command believers to be filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and to walk by means of the Spirit so that they would NOT fulfill the desires of the flesh (Gal 5:16)?

The only reason I can think of is they have not been taught biblical doctrine about sanctification, JLB

This certainly applies to those believers who seem not to understand Eph 4:30, 1 Thess 5:19, Eph 5:18 and Gal 5:16.

 

[FreeGrace]

ezra said: ↑
my self i am a know so salvation belief

2

Does this emoji indicate a "hope so salvation belief" on your part??

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said: ↑
2

SO YOU DONT KNOW IF YOUR SAVED OR NOT or are you one of these who has to get resaved everyday

This certainly brings up a great question for the osnas group. If salvation can be lost, how is it regained, or can it ever be? And what verses would lead one to such a view?