Justification and Sanctification

[PeterJens]

Because we are in Him and His is in us is a fact, it is total objectivity, and zero subjectivity.
Well, we certainly disagree on this. I am a human being, different from an animal. Paul said this:
1 Cor 15:39 - 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.
Emotions are subjective.
This is opposite to the first part of your post, where you said this:
"In Christ there is never objectivity"
So, which is it?

Hi Free,

Not sure you understand the idea of subjective and objective.
I can be objective about a knife and fork, because it is outside myself, I have no vested interest in the observations
or outcomes, so I can prove they exist and how they behave, repeatedly, until the point I am happy it is a "truth".

Now anything about myself, where I am both the person studying and the object of the study will always be subjective,
because I can never be outside myself. So if one wants an objective opinion about oneself you have to consult others.

Are we different from an animal? Please tell me one thing we do that animals do not do?

Emotions are a summary of events, situations and measure our ability to cope. They are a statement, whether valid or not,
of how we cope and go through our lives. Many are scared of even talking about them, because of how they do
not understand the ebbs and flows and see them as a sea of chaos, rather than a reflection of who they are or how they
feel about where they are at the moment, whether valid or not.

Now if one grasps the concept that our experiences with Christ will always be subjective, and we can never escape
this, because it is the nature of the Kingdom of heaven, Jesus as the source of everything is the ultimate objective
reality. But in a sense we can never know this standing apart, because that is death, the rebellion that Adam and Eve
took on in the garden, and leads to death. But why do we desire to stand apart, what is gained by this?

The answer to this appears dependency and trust. If we are not dependent and do not need to trust we will be safe,
we cannot be hurt, nothing to lose. But in this very withdrawal and desire to protect we die, and destroy the very life
we are wanting to protect.

I have had believers tell me if they could walk righteously they would not need God. It is in their mind, God is only
filling in the failure gap in their lives. This does not include the giving and receiving of a loving relationship, and
how vulnerability and mutual dependency is part of it all. There is a vast gap between these two worlds, yet many
claim they know Jesus intimately, or at least intellectually and the truth cannot be doubted.

Jesus calls us to learn how to love, love others, love ourselves and love God, along with our enemies and all those
who have hurt us in the past. This is almost impossible, except Jesus has found a way through in the cross.

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.
John 13:34-35

This is not simple thing, but it is the Kingdom of Heaven

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

If we take obedience out of the Lord's message , I believe it's like taking soul out of a human being. What then is left huh

 

[chessman]

The question here is What is True Saving Faith ?

Easy:

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast. For we are his creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, so that we may walk in them.​

Ephesians 2:8-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ephesians 2:8-10&version=LEB

True saving faith is NOT from yourself, it’s a gift from God, by His grace.

Unfortunately many Churches are teaching " your SALVATION can never be lost" Why do they say that ?

You’d have to ask the individual teacher. I’d say it is because True Saving Faith is not from ourselfs, but rather from our all knowing God, who gave it to us by His grace in the first place. God doesn’t make mistakes.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi Free,

Not sure you understand the idea of subjective and objective.

That is my conclusion of your views.

I can be objective about a knife and fork, because it is outside myself, I have no vested interest in the observations
or outcomes, so I can prove they exist and how they behave, repeatedly, until the point I am happy it is a "truth".

What does being "happy" have to do with objectivity? Emotions are subjective.

Now anything about myself, where I am both the person studying and the object of the study will always be subjective,
because I can never be outside myself.

Is this a suggestion that a person cannot be objective about anything "outside" themselves????

Are we different from an animal? Please tell me one thing we do that animals do not do?

I was hoping you read my post and the Scripture that refutes your notion that we are animals. 1 Cor 15:39 - Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.

Emotions are a summary of events, situations and measure our ability to cope. They are a statement, whether valid or not,
of how we cope and go through our lives.

They are also subjective.

 

[FreeGrace]

If we take obedience out of the Lord's message , I believe it's like taking soul out of a human being. What then is left huh

The issue at hand is whether obedience is required for salvation. The Bible teaches salvation is by faith in Christ.

Obedience is required of those who have believed. Why? Not to maintain or keep their salvation, as some claim, but for blessings and eternal reward.
Isa 1:18-20
18 “Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.” For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

v.19 is about being blessed by obedience. v.20 is about discipline for rebellion.

Rev 22:12 - “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done."

This is abourt eternal reward for obedience.

 

[PeterJens]

That is my conclusion of your views.
What does being "happy" have to do with objectivity? Emotions are subjective.

Free, are you serious? Please tell me, that if I say I am happy with something being the truth,
that is just a way of describing the process of investigation and final agreement.
Are you saying you are sad when you agree with something?

I have to apologise. I am describing the problem of talking about our own experiences will always
be subjective. It appears you are not able to grasp what I am saying, which may explain a lot of
other things.

About us being animals. You appear not to accept our humanity. Are you suggesting we are actually
spiritual beings in a flesh body? Please can you tell me where in scripture you get this idea.

All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.
1 cor 15:39

The term here animals is distinguishing man from living beings on the earth, and birds and fish.
In biological definitions, we are in the group of mammals, and all living creatures are founded on DNA.
No form of life has been found that does not work on DNA. Everything about us, is defined by what we
eat and breath. Take this away, we die.

So I am using the term animals in the biological sense. In biology species is defined as a group of creatures
that can inter-bred. In this sense we are linked as people from other creatures. I would also add God breathed
life into us, and made us like Him. I do not believe this means we are eternal, or just a spirit, but rather we
are born with a heart of love.

Emotions are the product of who we are, and are important. What people tend to do is dismiss what they call
subjective and desire objective ideas, not realising everything is subjective, so it always is a question of
compromises and base assumptions. We live our lives on assumptions, beliefs, statements of faith, though
we hope it is more concrete than this.

 

[JLB]

I’d say it is because True Saving Faith is not from ourselfs, but rather from our all knowing God, who gave it to us by His grace in the first place. God doesn’t make mistakes.

Amen. So true.

Once faith becomes our own, aren’t we responsible for how operate in it, and to hold fast to it, as well as not depart from it?


I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. Revelation 2:13

and again


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

What is man, flesh

39> He remembered that they were but flesh, a passing breeze that does not return.
Psalm 78-39

5> But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."
Job 2:5

26> I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27> And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
28> You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:26-28

19> By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."
Genesis 3:19

20> All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.
Ecclesiastes 3:20

 

[Papa Zoom]

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:24
JLB

Ephesians 2:8-9King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

There's more going on here. Saved NOT of works but justified by works. And not by faith only? I don't need a bunch of verse thrown out. I need a clear and concise explanation on how to reconcile these two verses (I'm sure it can be done). Romans 3:28 seems to muddy the waters too. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

 

[JLB]

Ephesians 2:8-9King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

There's more going on here. Saved NOT of works but justified by works. And not by faith only? I don't need a bunch of verse thrown out. I need a clear and concise explanation on how to reconcile these two verses (I'm sure it can be done). Romans 3:28 seems to muddy the waters too. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

The works being referenced in
Ephesians 2:8 refers to the works of the law, which Paul had to deal with in all His churches that he raised up because of the Pharisees that would come behind him and try to bring the Gentile Christians into the bondage of the law.

Paul finally had enough of this and went back to Jerusalem and had the famous showdown we read about in Acts 15.

To the Galatians he wrote about this issue:

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-8

Paul had to deal with these Pharisee’s who were teaching the Gentile Christians that they must become circumcised and keep the law of Moses in order to be saved.

That’s the context of Ephesians 2:8 as he goes on the say -

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-16


James, on the other is describing the principle by which faith operates or functions.

The works James is referring to is not the works of the law, but the obedience of faith.

The law of faith requires that there is a corresponding act or work of obedience for faith to be activated or alive and able to produce the divine result intended by God.

James uses Abraham as an example.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22


The works in Ephesians refers to the works of the law.

The works in James refers to the obedience of faith.

Paul said it this way in Romans.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

again

Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
Romans 1:5

From the first chapter in Romans to the last, Paul expounds on this very thing.

The obedience of faith.

Faith without the corresponding act of obedience is dead, and will not function or produce the intended divine result, just as a body without a spirit is dead, and is unable to function.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"That is my conclusion of your views.
What does being "happy" have to do with objectivity? Emotions are subjective."

Free, are you serious? Please tell me, that if I say I am happy with something being the truth, that is just a way of describing the process of investigation and final agreement.

The point is that happiness is an emotion, and all emotions are subjective. They have nothing to do with objectivity.

Are you saying you are sad when you agree with something?

Of course not. But everyone is happy with what they agree with. Or else, they'd not agree to it if it made them sad.

I have to apologise. I am describing the problem of talking about our own experiences will always
be subjective.

The finality of your statements cannot be proven. For example, when Jesus called Lazarus out from the grave, was that just a subjective experience for him? Absolutely not. It was objective. He was physically alive once again.

It appears you are not able to grasp what I am saying, which may explain a lot of
other things.

No, I strongly disagree with what you've posted, as I've explained.

About us being animals. You appear not to accept our humanity.

No, I do NOT accept humans being called animals. What about the verse I gave from 1 Cor 15:39? Did it have no meaning for you?

Are you suggesting we are actually spiritual beings in a flesh body? Please can you tell me where in scripture you get this idea.

I am, and I did.

All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.
1 cor 15:39

The term here animals is distinguishing man from living beings on the earth, and birds and fish.
In biological definitions, we are in the group of mammals, and all living creatures are founded on DNA.

What Paul was saying here is that the DNA of each category is DIFFERENT. Please don't try to smoke me about biology. My doctorate is in the biological sciences.

No form of life has been found that does not work on DNA.

This is totally irrelevant. The DNA of animals is DIFFERENT from human beings.

Everything about us, is defined by what we eat and breath. Take this away, we die.

Also irrelevant.

So I am using the term animals in the biological sense.

Fine. But humans are not animals, and Paul made that clear.

In biology species is defined as a group of creatures that can inter-bred.

Which is WHY humans are NOT animals. Some act like animals, but that's another discussion. Jude 10 - Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

In this sense we are linked as people from other creatures.

Meaning...human beings are NOT animals.

I would also add God breathed life into us, and made us like Him.

Another reason human beings are not animals.

 

[FreeGrace]

What is man, flesh

Let's examine what the Bible says about a saved man:
1 Thess 5:23 - May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Unsaved man has a body and soul, but no spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said: ↑
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:24

Ephesians 2:8-9King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

There's more going on here. Saved NOT of works but justified by works. And not by faith only? I don't need a bunch of verse thrown out. I need a clear and concise explanation on how to reconcile these two verses (I'm sure it can be done). Romans 3:28 seems to muddy the waters too. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Yes sir. It can be done easily. From Romans and Ephesians we have very clear statements that we are saved and justified on the basis of faith, and not of works.

So, James either contradicts what Paul wrote, or James was speaking about a justification from a different perspective.

What is perspective? It's how something is perceived. The Bible speaks to perception (perspective) from God's view and from man's view.

Since scholars agree that James was a practical, not a theological, epistle, his points were about how to live the Christian life.

So, his words in 2:14-26 are about the need to demonstrate our faith to others so they can see it in action.

James gave a great example of one who failed to demonstrate his faith in 2:15,16. In that example, a man comes across a fellow believer who is cold and hungry. But instead of actually meeting those needs, he merely says, "be warmed and be filled" and goes marrily on his way, leaving the poor soul still hungry and shivering.

Such a believer fails to demonstrate their faith in that situation. But if that believer had actually met their needs by providing clothing and food, he would have demonstrated love for his fellow man, which is what the Lord commands His followers.

Here are some verses:

Human and Divine perspective

Romans 12:17 - Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.
This is about the perspective of everyone.

Rom 14:18 - because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
This is about the perspective of both God and humans.

2 Cor 5:12 - We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.
This is about the perspective of others.

2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.
This is about perspective of the Lord and of man.

1 Tim 3:7 - He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
This is about perspective of outsiders.

1 John 3:18 - Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.
This is directly related to James 2:15-16.

1 Thess 4:12 - so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.
This is about perspective of outsiders. To “win the respect of outsiders” is to be justified in the eyes of outsiders.

So, from these verses, it should be seen that James was referring to winning the respect or being justified in the eyes of others when believers demonstrate their faith.

Understanding that James was referring to being "justified" in the eyes of others by demonstrating our faith rather than being justified by God, reconciles the verses in Romans and Ephesians and removes any contradiction.

 

[WIP]

James gave a great example of one who failed to demonstrate his faith in 2:15,16. In that example, a man comes across a fellow believer who is cold and hungry. But instead of actually meeting those needs, he merely says, "be warmed and be filled" and goes marrily on his way, leaving the poor soul still hungry and shivering.

Such a believer fails to demonstrate their faith in that situation. But if that believer had actually met their needs by providing clothing and food, he would have demonstrated love for his fellow man, which is what the Lord commands His followers.

Do you think it could be said that such a man is not really a believer? I wonder about that. In my mind, a true believer would be inclined to want to help his neighbor. In other words, it is more than just doing to show or prove to others that one is a believer. It is about doing because Christ in him/her is leading the way, which could be what is meant by following Jesus.

 

[Papa Zoom]

The works being referenced in
Ephesians 2:8 refers to the works of the law, which Paul had to deal with in all His churches that he raised up because of the Pharisees that would come behind him and try to bring the Gentile Christians into the bondage of the law.

Paul finally had enough of this and went back to Jerusalem and had the famous showdown we read about in Acts 15.

To the Galatians he wrote about this issue:

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-8

Paul had to deal with these Pharisee’s who were teaching the Gentile Christians that they must become circumcised and keep the law of Moses in order to be saved.

That’s the context of Ephesians 2:8 as he goes on the say -

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-16


James, on the other is describing the principle by which faith operates or functions.

The works James is referring to is not the works of the law, but the obedience of faith.

The law of faith requires that there is a corresponding act or work of obedience for faith to be activated or alive and able to produce the divine result intended by God.

James uses Abraham as an example.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22


The works in Ephesians refers to the works of the law.

The works in James refers to the obedience of faith.

Paul said it this way in Romans.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

again

Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
Romans 1:5

From the first chapter in Romans to the last, Paul expounds on this very thing.

The obedience of faith.

Faith without the corresponding act of obedience is dead, and will not function or produce the intended divine result, just as a body without a spirit is dead, and is unable to function.


JLB

Then, it seems to me, works matter only inasmuch as they are a visual demonstration of the reality of one's faith. It's not the work themselves that justify, but that the works demonstrate a genuine faith - which justifies. So a person who claims to have faith, but shows no fruit or works, isn't saved in the first place: their faith isn't genuine. In the same way, a person who demonstrates what would constitute works could still be unsaved if there was never a profession of faith.

I also wonder what people mean when they say works or fruits.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Do you think it could be said that such a man is not really a believer? I wonder about that. In my mind, a true believer would be inclined to want to help his neighbor. In other words, it is more than just doing to show or prove to others that one is a believer. It is about doing because Christ in him/her is leading the way, which could be what is meant by following Jesus.

This is exactly my view. In a nut shell.

 

[ezra]

Then, it seems to me, works matter only inasmuch as they are a visual demonstration of the reality of one's faith. It's not the work themselves that justify, but that the works demonstrate a genuine faith - which justifies. So a person who claims to have faith, but shows no fruit or works, isn't saved in the first place: their faith isn't genuine. In the same way, a person who demonstrates what would constitute works could still be unsaved if there was never a profession of faith.

Bingo exactly people take what james is writing about and pull it out of what he really means why some want to lean on works as justification is beyond me
James 2:23 - and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God this explains it very clear

 

[JLB]

Then, it seems to me, works matter only inasmuch as they are a visual demonstration of the reality of one's faith. It's not the work themselves that justify, but that the works demonstrate a genuine faith - which justifies. So a person who claims to have faith, but shows no fruit or works, isn't saved in the first place: their faith isn't genuine. In the same way, a person who demonstrates what would constitute works could still be unsaved if there was never a profession of faith.

I also wonder what people mean when they say works or fruits.

In our initial salvation we demonstrate we believe the Gospel by obeying the command of the Gospel which is repent.

Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that you express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

The faith action is to confess Jesus as Lord. in submission to His rule and authority.

This is the command of the Gospel that we are to obey, if we believe the Gospel.

JLB

 

[chessman]

everyone is happy with what they agree with. Or else, they'd not agree to it if it made them sad.

Pff, 90% of the movies I agree to see or restaurants I patron make me sad. ...

But the wife and kids are happy

 

[ezra]

Do you think it could be said that such a man is not really a believer? I wonder about that. In my mind, a true believer would be inclined to want to help his neighbor. In other words, it is more than just doing to show or prove to others that one is a believer. It is about doing because Christ in him/her is leading the way, which could be what is meant by following Jesus.

like you it does make me wonder i think of this scripture
1 John 3:17

“But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?”