Justification and Sanctification

[Northman]

If the King could seal you, he could unseal you.
Just like used to happen back then.
Many times a king sent out a decree and the recanted.

Anyway, y ou don't take one or two verses and then make doctrine out of them.
Believe me, if Paul knew he was going to cause such confusion, he NEVER would have written those two verses.

2 Peter 3:16

If you say there is no such thing as something and then it plainly says it in scripture, there is no explaining it away with words about other kings or whatever reasoning. The last line is really over the top.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you say there is no such thing as something and then it plainly says it in scripture, there is no explaining it away with words about other kings or whatever reasoning. The last line is really over the top.

Perche is it over the top.

I posted a verse.
Paul said MANY DIFFICULT THINGS which are DIFFICULT to understand.
You see, he wrote 2,000 years ago and had in mind the culture of THAT DAY.
Not OUR culture. This is sometimes known as hermeunetics. It comes in handy to understand the OVERALL message of the New Testament.

The overall message is that salvation could be lost.
Jesus spoke many times of branches being cut off and burned.
For those who DO NOT ABIDE in Him.

Please read and exegete
John 15:1-6

I do believe it says that Jesus expects us to bear good fruit.
What if we don't??

 

[Northman]

Perche is it over the top.

Italian right? So that's a why. The why is because you place yourself in the seat of judgement saying exactly what would have happened. You can't. First and only reason necessary being that Paul wasn't the author of what he was actually writing down. That crown lies at the feet of the King, and He knew exactly what He was doing.

Paul said MANY DIFFICULT THINGS which are DIFFICULT to understand.
You see, he wrote 2,000 years ago and had in mind the culture of THAT DAY.
Not OUR culture. This is sometimes known as hermeunetics. It comes in handy to understand the OVERALL message of the New Testament.

Yes all that was already in my brain.

The overall message is that salvation could be lost.
Jesus spoke many times of branches being cut off and burned.
For those who DO NOT ABIDE in Him.

What does that have to do with screaming in all caps that there is no such thing as being sealed with the holy spirit?

Please read and exegete
John 15:1-6

I do believe it says that Jesus expects us to bear good fruit.
What if we don't??

You don't need me to do that for you. It is very plainly written. You already know the answer is verse 2 so why ask me?

 

[FreeGrace]

I think you have miss-understood what I am saying.

Apparently.

Was Judas saved and Peter not? At what point did they cross over?

There was no 'cross-over'. Please explain what that means.

Judas was never saved. No evidence from Scripture that he ever believed in Jesus as Messiah. He was an opportunistic thief.
Peter was saved.

When you start a walk, is it only true that you have walked the path until the end?

No. Why would one think that? Please explain.

Now if you leave the path part way along, you will never finish it.

What Scripture describes our salvation as having to finish a path?

But while walking the path one is fulfilling the promise of completion.

So, who's made this "promise" of completion? The walker or someone else?

Jesus put this paradox into a parable

First, please describe what "this paradox" is.

There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'
29> "'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
30> "Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.
31> "Which of the two did what his father wanted?The first," they answered.
Matt 21:28-31

So, how is this a paradox. There is no paradox. One agreed to something but didn't carry it out. The other said no, but later did carry it out.

28> "Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it?
29> For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him,
30> saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.'
Luke 14:28-30

OK. So?

Only at the end does one truly know who was faithful and who was not.

Sure, but that's not the point of salvaton. Ever. Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28

Jesus also taught that those who believe possess eternal life. This shows that one possesses (has been given) eternal life WHEN they believe.

Jesus calls, we answer and walk.

Sure. So how does this relate to one's security?

Counting the cost, staying faithful, being true and learning the power of love is all part of discipleship and
sanctification.

All of this is part of spiritual growth, and NONE of this is part of getting saved. As to sanctification, there are 2:
positional, whereby when one believes, and they are placed in union with Christ, per Eph 1:13, they are positionally sanctified.
progressive, which is the issue of spiritual growth.

Let me ask a question. Can a baby grow up BEFORE it's been born?

For this to be meaningful, the opposite is also true, failure and walking away.

By whose rule?

 

[FreeGrace]

I think wondering is saying the view that one is sealed in the Holy Spirit for eternity, which cannot
be broken is the idea she is disagreeing with, which I would agree with.

Doesn't matter who agrees or disagrees. Eph 1:13,14 are clear enough. Once sealed, we are guaranteed our inheritance for the day of redemption. Please explain how any of God's guarantees can be broken, because that's what your argument seems to be.

The Holy Spirit is an anointing, a commitment, a communion. I have known people who have walked
in the gifts, been filled with the Holy Spirit and still walked away and called it all fake.

So what? What did that prove, other than they were stupid. What people do doesn't create fact regarding the Bible.

Sealing is about authority

No, Eph 1:14 is clear. It's about POSSESSION; God's possession.

like of old a King would seal a letter and if it was broken great cost would
have to be paid. It did not stop the breaking of the seal, just demonstrated who it represented.

Except you're comparing apples to zebras. The Holy Spirit is the seal Himself, a mark on believers, not some blob of wax on a letter.

16> The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
17> Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Rom 8:16-17

How does one not realize that these verses are also about eternal security??

 

[FreeGrace]

If the King could seal you, he could unseal you.

lol. There are NO verses about the seal of Eph 1:13,14 being unsealed. None.

But it seems some wish there were.

 

[JLB]

Italian right? So that's a why. The why is because you place yourself in the seat of judgement saying exactly what would have happened. You can't. First and only reason necessary being that Paul wasn't the author of what he was actually writing down. That crown lies at the feet of the King, and He knew exactly what He was doing.


Yes all that was already in my brain.


What does that have to do with screaming in all caps that there is no such thing as being sealed with the holy spirit?


You don't need me to do that for you. It is very plainly written. You already know the answer is verse 2 so why ask me?

Here is who will receive eternal life.

Extremely plain and needs no interpretation.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

Since Jesus is the Author of Romans 2:7 it stands to reason that He would have said the same thing to His disciples, which He did.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 10:28-29

• Paul said it this way to the Galatians-

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

• And to the Ephesians-

5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:5-7

Therefore do not be partakers with them.

If it were not possibly for Christians to partake of God’s wrath, then why would the Lord inspire Paul to write these words?


because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.


JLB

 

[PeterJens]

Doesn't matter who agrees or disagrees. Eph 1:13,14 are clear enough. Once sealed, we are guaranteed our inheritance for the day of redemption. Please explain how any of God's guarantees can be broken, because that's what your argument seems to be.
So what? What did that prove, other than they were stupid. What people do doesn't create fact regarding the Bible.
No, Eph 1:14 is clear. It's about POSSESSION; God's possession.
Except you're comparing apples to zebras. The Holy Spirit is the seal Himself, a mark on believers, not some blob of wax on a letter.
How does one not realize that these verses are also about eternal security??

Hi Free, Thankyou for your response.

I have met many different types of people. And then there is God.
God is enigmatic. He says one thing and then waits for us to discover and show the implications.
So for me, it matters who agrees or disagrees, because I do not have faith that I have grasped
everything and want others to add to the conversation.

I would point out to everyone there is no guarantee that does not have conditions.
And the meaning of the guarantee is not necessarily clear.

Everyone showed read Gods guarantees and all the small print. Else one is a fool, who is only
interested in the headlines and not the reality. I have read some who claim God guarantees health
wealth and happiness, here and now, that one can speak forth ones future as a child of God.

Others who say God guarantees them eternity in bliss even if they becomes a mass murderer and
their hearts grow cold.

What is guaranteed is if you know Jesus, know God you will walk in His ways and do His will.
The opposite is true also, if you do walk in His ways and do not do His will, you do not know Him.

15> For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.
16> Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.
17> Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
1 Peter 2:15-17

14> You are my friends if you do what I command.
John 15:14

5> But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
6> Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 2:5-6

24> Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us
1 John 3:24

So let me put this simply. Obeying Jesus is part of living in Him and being sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Salvation is linked to this style of living, so if you fail to live in Him, how can one claim any guarantees
apply to oneself? Are we not temples of the Holy Spirit, so how could these temples abide in sin and
claim to be inheritors of the promise.

It is easy to claim a guarantee for yourself, which is not applicable because you only know its true
value when you need to put it into effect, on the day of judgement, and if you have got it wrong,
it will be too late. Now this seriously causes me to fear and tremble, not because I have a guilty
conscience but because I know how serious an issue this is. Unless every believer knows this fear
unfortunately it means they are living under the delusion of a false guarantee.

11> For God does not show favoritism.
12> All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13> For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
Romans 2:11-13

 

[PeterJens]

No. Why would one think that? Please explain.

[edited]

This is what Paul says

10> I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
11> and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12> Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
13> Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,
14> I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15> All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.
Philippians 3:10-15

In these verses is what I am expressing.
Now people want to dream them have arrived, that they can never arrive, that they have gone to the station
and left it, but it does not matter.

The most ironic thing, which I find ironic, is you enter the path by the gate, not by knowledge, or the right
teacher, or this ceremony or belonging to this group, but literally by the gate.

What is obvious from many testimonies and books, many have come for many reasons with many objectives
and agendas, but the only ones that matter have entered by the gate, so welcome brothers and sisters, Amen
to you, and God bless everyone else.

Jesus knew of the chaos and mass variations of people and ways so he said this

7> Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep.
8> All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.
9> I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.
John 10:7-9

 

[PeterJens]

Good fruit.

Men of this world, how do you judge a good man from an evil man? By the way they behave.

So a sinner who meets the King of glory, who holds the Holiest of Holies in their hearts, who
follows the Lord of love and grace, yet shows nothing of this in their lives, and you think they know
the Lord? May as well say a blind man can see as he walks of the cliff to their death.

Or is this like a man with no legs, who throws away his wheel chair and says he now can walk,
falls to the floor but in faith he has legs. Nope, he is severly deluded, and wants a solution more
than facing where he really is and what is actually happening.

My son said to me once, God has not spoken to me, so why should I believe in Him.
He had a bible on his desk, in which are all Gods words. Do the words change if spoken into
his head or how he responds be any different? The truth is no.

The problem with man is impurity and not lack of evidence, a hurt heart which shuts out love,
and closes down affection one with another. Without dealing with this, however God speaks
people will not hear. If God took the veil away now, rebellion would just be obvious, nothing
else would change, this is the eternal realities of this world.


19> This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
20> Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21> But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.
John 3:19-21

 

[JLB]

Actually, not. v.27 is simply a general description of His followers. Anyone can see that there is no "conditions" for how to be one of His sheep.

That would sum up your theology perfectly.

That’s for coming out and admitting it so we can all know where you stand.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I said:"This certainly brings up a great question for the osnas group. If salvation can be lost, how is it regained, or can it ever be? And what verses would lead one to such a view?"

There are zero verses that make this claim. Zero.

Further, Jesus made such an event impossible, because He made 3 very important points about one's security.

POINT 1: Jesus said that those who believe POSSSESS eternal life. John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-27.
POINT 2; Jesus gives the gift of eternal life. John 10:28a
POINT 3. Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28b

If there is disagreement with these 3 points, please provide how any of them are incorrect and include verses that clearly indicate so.

Ask this in the appropriate thread.

We have hijacked this one long enough.

 

[PeterJens]

That would sum up your theology perfectly.
That’s for coming out and admitting it so we can all know where you stand.
JLB

Hi JLB,

If one takes the phrase salvation with no conditions, that is universalism, literally.
Everyone is just accepted, nothing needs to change, in fact we are living in heaven now, and death
is only an illusion to keep up pretences. Why even have a bible or any guidence because in this video
game you just press the reboot, except as nothing goes wrong, or is unacceptable, no need to reboot,
or believe or not believe.

This is the same insanity of the nihilist coming up to anyone and saying, those people over there are
so wrong, they should not be doing that or guilt tripping those people, because the joke is, nothing has
any meaning therefore there is nothing to say or complain about, because it does not matter what is or
is not.

18> For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19> For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
20> Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1 Corinthians 1:18-20

 

[ezra]

Here is what you said.

i do not believe a true blue born again blood bought child of the king filled with the spirit connected to the TRUE VINE living with the works of the flesh instead of the fruit of the spirit -----------> WAS EVER SAVED.


How can a person be born again, and filled with the Spirit, in which they are blood bought, not be saved.


If they are blood bought, then they are indeed purchased by His blood.

How can something be bought, yet not belong to the buyer?


JLB

stop the nonsense you said practiced the works of the flesh..... i gave you scripture what paul said in Galatians. this make about the 3rd time you twisted my reply .. do you practice the works of the flesh all the time.

 

[ezra]

It indicates that I don’t understand what - my self i am a know so salvation belief,
means. That’s all.

It’s simply saying I don’t understand what is being conveyed.

Which is my fault. Not his.


JLB

of course so you dont understand what a KNOW so salvation is?

 

[Northman]

Here is who will receive eternal life.

Extremely plain and needs no interpretation.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

Since Jesus is the Author of Romans 2:7 it stands to reason that He would have said the same thing to His disciples, which He did.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 10:28-29

• Paul said it this way to the Galatians-

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

• And to the Ephesians-

5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:5-7

Therefore do not be partakers with them.

If it were not possibly for Christians to partake of God’s wrath, then why would the Lord inspire Paul to write these words?


because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.


JLB

And this has to do with someone saying that there is "NO SUCH THING AS BEING SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT" how? You didn't claim that. She did. Ephesians 1:13 is there.

 

[PeterJens]

stop the nonsense you said practiced the works of the flesh..... i gave you scripture what paul said in Galatians. this make about the 3rd time you twisted my reply .. do you practice the works of the flesh all the time.

Hi ezra,
I think I understand your point.
A person who truly knows Christ, walks in the Holy Spirit will show the fruit and live a life appropriate.

Now there are people who seem to do this, and exercise faith etc, yet fall away. In practical terms
we have to call them saved, because they appear as such, so equally a saved person appears to have
fallen away.

I had a friend who got so upset, he said he would happily go to hell than change his attitude towards
a family upset that had happened. It took a year, and finally he repented and walked in the love of
Christ again.

This is where I put my ideas and verses to one side and just love people where they are.
God will judge as He will judge, but I am called to feel with people through their pain and suffering.
This is where being open and honest, and learning to let love express itself matters more than example
verses, or security in one set of beliefs or another. The Lord is not going to ask for which version one
believed but how we walked and how we shared His love and will with others, or just lost it and blasted
those around us aside. And the kind of things said about me because of me not standing with certain
approaches speaks more about what their hearts are full of than Christ at all.

Everything flows from our communion with God, through Jesus, yet you would believe it is actually from
a book of doctrines or being reminded of unconfessed sins, or someone daring to suggest Christ has some
issues with their life, though nothing is said, just felt. I am not surprised as people know longer want to behave
like Christ or even have this as a goal, it is little wonder there is so much antagonism when those who carry
the light share it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is who will receive eternal life.

Extremely plain and needs no interpretation.

Right. All these verses:
John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

Since Jesus is the Author of Romans 2:7 it stands to reason that He would have said the same thing to His disciples, which He did.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

• No one gets eternal life by doing good. That's why Paul also wrote that "all are under sin" in Rom 3;9, that "all are under sin" in 3:10, that "there is none righteous or does good" in 3:10 and that "all have sinned" in 3:23.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 10:28-29

John 10:28-29 does not say this. Check your Bible.

I will repeat what John 10:28 does say, however. Jesus said: "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."

Jesus taught eternal security.

 

[JLB]

And this has to do with someone saying that there is "NO SUCH THING AS BEING SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT" how? You didn't claim that. She did. Ephesians 1:13 is there.

The seal of the Holy Spirit refers to a mark of authenticity, such as a kings seal that comes from a signet ring on a letter, authenticating that it is genuine.

The Holy Spirit is the seal of authenticity in those who believe.

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelief, do not believe any longer.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Please provide a scripture that says those who do not believe, are granted God’s seal of authenticity which is only promised to those who believe.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I said:"This certainly brings up a great question for the osnas group. If salvation can be lost, how is it regained, or can it ever be? And what verses would lead one to such a view?"

There are zero verses that make this claim. Zero.

Further, Jesus made such an event impossible, because He made 3 very important points about one's security.

POINT 1: Jesus said that those who believe POSSSESS eternal life. John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-27.
POINT 2; Jesus gives the gift of eternal life. John 10:28a
POINT 3. Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28b

If there is disagreement with these 3 points, please provide how any of them are incorrect and include verses that clearly indicate so."

Ask this in the appropriate thread.

We have hijacked this one long enough.

Dodge.