Justification and Sanctification

[PeterJens]

I asked this:
"A better question is why Paul would command believers to STOP grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) and to STOP quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19). Along with those commands, why did He command believers to be filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and to walk by means of the Spirit so that they would NOT fulfill the desires of the flesh (Gal 5:16)?"

And still...no answer to my question.


I did. By quoting the 2 verses that contained commands to STOP grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit. Since a command to stop doing these things, it is obvious WHY a saved person would want to live to grafity the sinful desires of the flesh.

We all have a free will, to do what we want. When we are filled with the Spirit and walking by means of the Spirit, we are doing what God commands us to do.

But, when we grieve and/or quench the Spirit, we are doing what our sinful nature wants to do.

Which ANSWERS your question of why.

These are very good questions. Paul would answer it like Jesus, we are on a journey, which never truly
finishes, but we can get lost. Only when judgement falls, can the conclusions be drawn.

Walking with Jesus is not a one time event, but a continual adventure. Jonah was a prophet, yet he almost
died. Some prophets have died, and Korah who rebelled, I do not think was going to be blessed with eternity
with the Father.

Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him.
26> He warned the assembly, "Move back from the tents of these wicked men! Do not touch anything belonging to them, or you will be swept away because of all their sins."
27> So they moved away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. Dathan and Abiram had come out and were standing with their wives, children and little ones at the entrances to their tents.
28> Then Moses said, "This is how you will know that the LORD has sent me to do all these things and that it was not my idea:
29> If these men die a natural death and experience only what usually happens to men, then the LORD has not sent me.
30> But if the LORD brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the grave, then you will know that these men have treated the LORD with contempt."
31> As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart
32> and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them, with their households and all Korah's men and all their possessions.
33> They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community.
Numbers 16:25-33

11> Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.
Jude 1:11

So in the Lord we have choice to what we sow to. And we can go too far.

 

[GodsGrace]

I said this:
"This certainly brings up a great question for the osnas group. If salvation can be lost, how is it regained, or can it ever be? And what verses would lead one to such a view?"

I recall a post that there was no interest in posting to or from me. Now this:

Not a "what". But a :Who". God the Father saves those who believe in His Son. John 6:40


Those who don't understand the "good" of posting verses cannot possibly follow any of these threads. The forum rules require the posting of verses in order to show others WHY one makes the claims that they do.


Untrue.


This is a frivolous question. But, yes, of course I do. Why in the world would anyone post verses that they don't believe????

WHAT saved you the first time?
I know Jesus went to the cross.
But WHAT saved you?
Think about it. You can do it.

It's OK FreeGrace. I forgot I didn't care to speak to you anymore.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don’t. I’m not everyone else.

What I find amazing, frankly unbelievable, is that you know how everyone else understands this passage.


Because it is required by the ToS and copyright laws. When I copy the passage from their website/app, the link comes with it as Biblegateway’s copyrighted legal method of transmitting the Text. I wouldn’t let it bother you. Just ignore it.


Neither the English nor the Greek says ‘our deeds’ or ‘people’s deeds’, yet that’s what some have misquoted. It literally says “his deeds” in the same sentence where it refers to God as He. And again, the form of the pronoun matches to God.


Southern Baptist. Very southern!

The verse is saying OUR DEEDS.
You need to brush up on your English.
It happens that it was my best subject.
Oh. In the United States where I grew up, of course.
And had a job where my English had to be impeccable.
Aintcha glad you know me?

Trust me, as you know, I DO ignore all the links you post.
Yeah. God is going to judge HIS OWN deeds one day.

Amazing.

End.

 

[FreeGrace]

Like all questions, OSAS or OSNAS are extremes of a position, centering on a concept of certainty.

No, they are 2 diametrically opposed positions.

iow, one is either eternally secure, or they are not.

Either salvation can be lost, or it can't. There are no "in-between" positions.

Everything we see and do can be undone. If anything, nothing is permanent, especially not our influence
on the world.

This is ridiculous. Those who have children absolutely KNOW that once they have a child, then CANNOT undo it. iow, once a parent, ALWAYS a parent, regardless of how long the child lives. Even death does not change that relationship.

24> For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25> but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you
1 Peter 1:24-25

This has nothing to do with many actions that are PERMANENT.

The action of believing in Christ results in being sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a GUARANTEE, FOR the day of redemption, Eph 1;13,14. This is a permanent action.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, they are 2 diametrically opposed positions.

iow, one is either eternally secure, or they are not.

Either salvation can be lost, or it can't. There are no "in-between" positions.


This is ridiculous. Those who have children absolutely KNOW that once they have a child, then CANNOT undo it. iow, once a parent, ALWAYS a parent, regardless of how long the child lives. Even death does not change that relationship.


This has nothing to do with many actions that are PERMANENT.

The action of believing in Christ results in being sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a GUARANTEE, FOR the day of redemption, Eph 1;13,14. This is a permanent action.

NO SUCH THING AS BEING SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Yes. Because I said so.

 

[FreeGrace]

These are very good questions. Paul would answer it like Jesus, we are on a journey, which never truly
finishes, but we can get lost. Only when judgement falls, can the conclusions be drawn.

Jesus gave us the conclusion for those who have been given eternal life: they shall never perish. John 10:28

Previous to that fact, Jesus taught WHEN one possesses (has been given) eternal life: when they believe. John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-27.

So in the Lord we have choice to what we sow to. And we can go too far.

So far, you've posted no verses that say that anyone can lose salvation.

 

[Northman]

NO SUCH THING AS BEING SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Ephesians 1:13

 

[FreeGrace]

WHAT saved you the first time?

To be clear, there is only a "first time". So no need to even use those words.

This was my answer, which apparently isn't being understood:
"Not a "what". But a :Who". God the Father saves those who believe in His Son. John 6:40"

I know Jesus went to the cross.

That does not save anyone. That was a fact of history.

But WHAT saved you?
Think about it. You can do it.

I believe your question is quite flawed. No one is saved by a what. We are saved by a Who.

Maybe you were thinking of "grace". Is that what you're trying to get at?

I would still argue that grace is a Who. Because the Bible says so: John 1:14,17.

It's OK FreeGrace. I forgot I didn't care to speak to you anymore.

No problem. Just ignore my response then.

 

[FreeGrace]

The verse is saying OUR DEEDS.
You need to brush up on your English.
It happens that it was my best subject.
Oh. In the United States where I grew up, of course.
And had a job where my English had to be impeccable.
Aintcha glad you know me?

Your comments would be relevant only if the NT was written in modern English. Which it wasn't.

 

[chessman]

You mean, you think the HIS is referring to God's deeds???

Are you saved by what Christ has done on the cross, yes or no.

You mean, you think God is going to judge HIMSELF???

If your understanding of the verse is that it says God will “judge”, then once again that is provably incorrect. Which is why I don’t share your understanding. The word is render not judge.

 

[FreeGrace]

NO SUCH THING AS BEING SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Yes. Because I said so.

This is funny, sort of. Also sad.

The Bible says something totally different what what you've said.
Eph 1
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The red words prove that the Holy Spirit is a seal which marks the believer.
The blue words prove that the Holy Spirit is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance for the day of redemption.

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus gave us the conclusion for those who have been given eternal life: they shall never perish. John 10:28
Previous to that fact, Jesus taught WHEN one possesses (has been given) eternal life: when they believe. John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-27.
So far, you've posted no verses that say that anyone can lose salvation.

I think you have miss-understood what I am saying.
Was Judas saved and Peter not? At what point did they cross over?
When you start a walk, is it only true that you have walked the path until the end?

Now if you leave the path part way along, you will never finish it.
But while walking the path one is fulfilling the promise of completion.

Jesus put this paradox into a parable
There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'
29> "'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
30> "Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.
31> "Which of the two did what his father wanted?The first," they answered.
Matt 21:28-31

28> "Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it?
29> For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him,
30> saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.'
Luke 14:28-30

Only at the end does one truly know who was faithful and who was not.
Jesus calls, we answer and walk.

Counting the cost, staying faithful, being true and learning the power of love is all part of discipleship and
sanctification. For this to be meaningful, the opposite is also true, failure and walking away. Without this
open ended reality everything is just a one way street.

 

[PeterJens]

I think wondering is saying the view that one is sealed in the Holy Spirit for eternity, which cannot
be broken is the idea she is disagreeing with, which I would agree with.

The Holy Spirit is an anointing, a commitment, a communion. I have known people who have walked
in the gifts, been filled with the Holy Spirit and still walked away and called it all fake.

Sealing is about authority, like of old a King would seal a letter and if it was broken great cost would
have to be paid. It did not stop the breaking of the seal, just demonstrated who it represented.

And to be honest if I was not sealed in the Holy Spirit and had the spiritual experiences I have and
have had, I would probably have fallen away. Like every loving relationship we need encouragement
and support. Some have almost lost their faith, because this presence and peace left them for years.

It did not occur to them that God might have been saying something significant to their hearts, they just
tried to cope with it, which I find very sad.

16> The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
17> Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Rom 8:16-17

 

[chessman]

The verse is saying OUR DEEDS.

No it’s not. ‘Our’ is a plural pronoun, not singular. And no translation that I am aware of says ‘our deeds’. Nor do any say God will ‘judge’. It’s render.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom 2:6&version=DLNT;NASB;KJV

It happens that it was my best subject.

And???
Am I supposed to believe the Text says ‘God will judge our deeds’ because English was your best subject???

The pronoun in the Text is singular, (Genitive, Masculine and 3rd person singular) not plural.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/2.htm

You need to brush up on your English.

I’m only stating what’s correct. Maybe it’s you that needs to brush up on your English. And if so inclined some basic NT Greek.

 

[JLB]

The verse is saying OUR DEEDS.
You need to brush up on your English.
It happens that it was my best subject.
Oh. In the United States where I grew up, of course.
And had a job where my English had to be impeccable.
Aintcha glad you know me?

Trust me, as you know, I DO ignore all the links you post.
Yeah. God is going to judge HIS OWN deeds one day.

Amazing.

End.

2

That was funny.

But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:3-8


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Ephesians 1:13

If the King could seal you, he could unseal you.
Just like used to happen back then.
Many times a king sent out a decree and the recanted.

Anyway, y ou don't take one or two verses and then make doctrine out of them.
Believe me, if Paul knew he was going to cause such confusion, he NEVER would have written those two verses.

2 Peter 3:16

 

[GodsGrace]

2

That was funny.

But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:3-8


JLB

Agreed JLB.
Except it's not so funny...rather sad actually.
I mean HOW MUCH can one twist scripture.

Ends with GOD,
begins with WHO...
English 101

 

[PeterJens]

The verse is saying OUR DEEDS.
You need to brush up on your English.
It happens that it was my best subject.
Oh. In the United States where I grew up, of course.
And had a job where my English had to be impeccable.
Aintcha glad you know me?

Trust me, as you know, I DO ignore all the links you post.
Yeah. God is going to judge HIS OWN deeds one day.

Amazing.

End.

Thanks for this.
I am a bit slow sometimes.

If God had to judge His own work, it implies it is guilty of sin and evil, which is in itself
impossible or heresy.

Now if one believes all have been forgiven of their sin, and believers are Gods perfect work, then
the verse could not mean God is judging His work, because that has not failed, ie not possible in
this theology.

So this interpretation fails to solve the problem of God judging peoples work, by saying it is Gods work.

I would therefore suggest, it is better it means God will judge peoples deeds, or else ones faith has just
been destroyed because God is no longer perfect.

A bit ironic, but then adding to Gods word is always a dangerous path to walk, I would suggest.

 

[GodsGrace]

No it’s not. ‘Our’ is a plural pronoun, not singular. And no translation that I am aware of says ‘our deeds’. Nor do any say God will ‘judge’. It’s render.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom 2:6&version=DLNT;NASB;KJV


And???
Am I supposed to believe the Text says ‘God will judge our deeds’ because English was your best subject???

The pronoun in the Text is singular, (Genitive, Masculine and 3rd person singular) not plural.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/2.htm


I’m only stating what’s correct. Maybe it’s you that needs to brush up on your English. And if so inclined some basic NT Greek.

Our is a plural noun.
Wow. You sure 'bout that?
Got any other good news?

Judge, render.
HE will judge and render to each...
You think He's going to render to Himself.

Come on Chessman.
Be serious.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for this.
I am a bit slow sometimes.

If God had to judge His own work, it implies it is guilty of sin and evil, which is in itself
impossible or heresy.

Now if one believes all have been forgiven of their sin, and believers are Gods perfect work, then
the verse could not mean God is judging His work, because that has not failed, ie not possible in
this theology.

So this interpretation fails to solve the problem of God judging peoples work, by saying it is Gods work.

I would therefore suggest, it is better it means God will judge peoples deeds, or else ones faith has just
been destroyed because God is no longer perfect.

A bit ironic, but then adding to Gods word is always a dangerous path to walk, I would suggest.

Of course.
Not only what you say above with so much patience which I'm lacking today...
There are those that say that it's GOD IN US that is doing ALL the work for us.

So, does this mean that when we sin, it's really GOD sinning?
Sometimes I just wonder if persons know what they're saying.
I have to get off here before I get banned.