Justification by Faith

[Nathan]

It was part of the plan from the beginning of creation.

Wether Judas was a friend or not....doesn't determine whether Judas was saved or not.

John 6:64-65, "But there are some of you who do not believe.”(JUDAS) For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, (JUDAS) and who it was that would betray Him.(JUDAS) 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.” Red emphasis mine.

Judas was never saved. the Bible really can't get any clearer.

You adding words does not make the Bible clear, it simply indicates you want to add words in one place and deny the written ones in another. We know that Jesus differentiates between those who did not believe, and the one who would betray Him. Two different groups.

If you believe that Jesus never lied, then you must believe when He said He was quoting a prophecy that was being fulfilled - He was not changing it.

The prophecy specifically states the Judas was a friend and trusted one. You will not find that to be said about anyone who is not called by God. We also know for a fact God called him. And we know that the disciples viewed him as one of them.

Jesus also stated that Judas was lost from Him. A person cannot be lost from someone if they were never theirs. Judas was Christs. It's a fact.

John 6
66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?"
68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil."
71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

 

[Jim Parker]

Judas never called Jesus Lord. Only Rabbi.

That is an argument from silence. A lack of evidence is not proof of anything. (Unless you're a Democrat congressman or CNN talking head who thinks a complete lack of evidence is unquestionable proof that Trump did something.)
As far as scripture reveals, Andrew; Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; and Simon the Cananite, never addressed Jesus as "LORD" either. Your reasoning would require that we conclude that none of them were saved either.

Judas was a follower, but never a true believer. John 6:64-65, "But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him

Who did not believe and who would betray Jesus are two different groups.
"Who they were" identifies the group of people who didn't believe.
"Who it was" identifies the individual who would betray.
Again, it provides no proof at all.
And verse 66 suggests that Judas was not in the group that did not believe.
"From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more."
But Judas remained with the others.

Judas was more interested in money than ministry. After all, he betrayed "an innocent man" for 30 pieces.

That he betrayed Jesus at the end of His ministry says nothing about Judas' state of mind prior to the decision to betray Him. The only point in time at which we can be sure that he definitely did not believe is at the "last supper" when "Satan entered" him. (Luk 22:3; Jhn 13:27)

Judas was the "Son of Perdition" John 17:12 from the beginning.

The scripture does not say that Judas was the son of perdition "from the beginning." That is your addition.
(Naughty! Naughty! Mustn't add to the scriptures!)

He had every opportunity to become a true believer in Jesus as Lord but he never made that step.

Again, you do not know that from scripture. You can only guess and a guess is not a good foundation on which to base a doctrine.

Jesus was a disappointment to Judas

Scripture does not say that.

he willingly betrayed Jesus to be killed.

That we do know for certain from scripture.

True followers are changed. Judas never changed.

And, yet again, scripture does not confirm that assumption.

You have not provided any real evidence from scripture that Judas was never a believer.
He may not have been but, you have not demonstrated that as fact from scripture.


iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

that doesn't speak to his salvation

I didn't say it did.
I said: "Notice Luke says that Judas "became" a traitor. That means that he was not a traitor at the time when he was made an apostle."

iakov the fool

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

Judas was son of perdition and that needs to be a separate thread, so as not to derail this one. Will now start a thread on "The son of perdition"

 

[Jim Parker]

why would any one ask if one could lose their faith that i gnat straining at its best

True. Scripture repeatedly reveals that it is necessary to remain faithful to the end in order to have eternal life and that it is possible to fail to do so thereby forfeit the gift of eternal life. To suggest otherwise is to require one swallow that camel.

 

[ezra]

True. Scripture repeatedly reveals that it is necessary to remain faithful to the end in order to have eternal life and that it is possible to fail to do so thereby forfeit the gift of eternal life. To suggest otherwise is to require one swallow that camel.

i must have complete great faith to keep my salvation

 

[Papa Zoom]

That is an argument from silence. A lack of evidence is not proof of anything. (Unless you're a Democrat congressman or CNN talking head who thinks a complete lack of evidence is unquestionable proof that Trump did something.)
As far as scripture reveals, Andrew; Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; and Simon the Cananite, never addressed Jesus as "LORD" either. Your reasoning would require that we conclude that none of them were saved either.

Who did not believe and who would betray Jesus are two different groups.
"Who they were" identifies the group of people who didn't believe.
"Who it was" identifies the individual who would betray.
Again, it provides no proof at all.
And verse 66 suggests that Judas was not in the group that did not believe.
"From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more."
But Judas remained with the others.

That he betrayed Jesus at the end of His ministry says nothing about Judas' state of mind prior to the decision to betray Him. The only point in time at which we can be sure that he definitely did not believe is at the "last supper" when "Satan entered" him. (Luk 22:3; Jhn 13:27)

The scripture does not say that Judas was the son of perdition "from the beginning." That is your addition.
(Naughty! Naughty! Mustn't add to the scriptures!)

Again, you do not know that from scripture. You can only guess and a guess is not a good foundation on which to base a doctrine.

Scripture does not say that.

That we do know for certain from scripture.

And, yet again, scripture does not confirm that assumption.

You have not provided any real evidence from scripture that Judas was never a believer.
He may not have been but, you have not demonstrated that as fact from scripture.


iakov the fool

all your position has are guesses too Either way, Judas' situation has no bearing on the OSAS debate. It's desperation.

And Judas was a son of perdition from the beginning. Look up the meaning. It was ordained that Judas would betray Jesus. Judas was doomed to destruction from the start. It wasn't by accident and didn't take God by surprise.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I didn't say it did.
I said: "Notice Luke says that Judas "became" a traitor. That means that he was not a traitor at the time when he was made an apostle."

iakov the fool

doesn't mean he was saved either

 

[Jim Parker]

i must have complete great faith to keep my salvation

YES!!
And you must ACT like you have complete great faith.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

all your position has are guesses too

Not one of my statements was a position or a guess.
I simply stated what scripture does and does not say.
I did not take a position with reference to Judas being saved or not because I don't know if Judas was ever saved or not. There was a time when he was not a traitor but I cannot judge his belief for the entire time that he was with Jesus. The information is simply not provided by scripture.

And Judas was a son of perdition from the beginning. Look up the meaning. It was ordained that Judas would betray Jesus. Judas was doomed to destruction from the start. It wasn't by accident and didn't take God by surprise.

It was ordained by whom?
Did God create Judas for the express purpose of damning him to an eternity of torture in the flames of hell?
Or did God know that Judas would make the choices that he made?
Somebody had to betray Jesus. Judas volunteered.

 

[Jim Parker]

doesn't mean he was saved either

I just said I wasn't talking about whether he was saved or not.
We cannot tell from scripture one way or the other.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Not one of my statements was a position or a guess.
I simply stated what scripture does and does not say.
I did not take a position with reference to Judas being saved or not because I don't know if Judas was ever saved or not. There was a time when he was not a traitor but I cannot judge his belief for the entire time that he was with Jesus. The information is simply not provided by scripture.

It was ordained by whom?
Did God create Judas for the express purpose of damning him to an eternity of torture in the flames of hell?
Or did God know that Judas would make the choices that he made?
Somebody had to betray Jesus. Judas volunteered.

I'm not going down this road with you Jim. I was responding to the claim, by someone else, that Judas was saved. And that he lost his salvation. An unsupported notion. The evidence shows Judas was not a true follower of Jesus. Circumstantial evidence counts when it accumulates. Clearly Judas didn't persevere and perseverance is evidence of a truly saved person.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I just said I wasn't talking about whether he was saved or not.
We cannot tell from scripture one way or the other.

Good for you. I was responding to another poster.

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm not going down this road with you Jim.

Yet, here we are.

I was responding to the claim, by someone else, that Judas was saved. And that he lost his salvation. An unsupported notion.

It has as much support as the notion that he was never saved.

The evidence shows Judas was not a true follower of Jesus.

There is not such evidence which would demonstrate that to be the case for the entire time that Judas was in the company of disciples and while he was an apostle.
That is a conclusion based on "sail boat fuel."

Clearly Judas didn't persevere and perseverance is evidence of a truly saved person.

The idea that a there is a category of "truly saved" is an invention of the OSAS promoters to avoid dealing with those who were saved for a time and then fell away. There is no scriptural basis for a distinction of being "truly saved" or not "truly saved." "NOt truly saved" would be in the realm of being "a little bit pregnant."
But certainly, as you said, Judas did not persevere in the faith that he may or may not have had.

 

[Jim Parker]

Good for you.

That was rude. Wait! Didn't I just say the same thing?? That would have been rude too...

I was responding to another poster.

And I was responding to what you posted to me.

 

[ezra]

Yet, here we are.

It has as much support as the notion that he was never saved.

There is not such evidence which would demonstrate that to be the case for the entire time that Judas was in the company of disciples and while he was an apostle.
That is a conclusion based on "sail boat fuel."

The idea that a there is a category of "truly saved" is an invention of the OSAS promoters to avoid dealing with those who were saved for a time and then fell away. There is no scriptural basis for a distinction of being "truly saved" or not "truly saved." "NOt truly saved" would be in the realm of being "a little bit pregnant."
But certainly, as you said, Judas did not persevere in the faith that he may or may not have had.

lol i said this was a osas or you can lose salvation post

 

[Soul man]

The thing with the Disciples is they were with Jesus before the cross. They were still under law. There were no born-again until the day of Penecost.
Grace had not made its entrance yet, Jesus would use Moses law in certain instances to minister; such as in one place He says "what does Moses law say."

 

[Nathan]

all your position has are guesses too Either way, Judas' situation has no bearing on the OSAS debate. It's desperation.

And Judas was a son of perdition from the beginning. Look up the meaning. It was ordained that Judas would betray Jesus. Judas was doomed to destruction from the start. It wasn't by accident and didn't take God by surprise.

It was prophesied, not ordained. God cannot make anyone sin. If it was ordained, then Judas would have had no choice.

Why is it so easy to make it seem like God makes people sin?

 

[Nathan]

i must have complete great faith to keep my salvation

No, not "great" faith - just the faith God gives you - however great or small.

Parable of the talents is a wise one to study for this knowledge.

 

[Papa Zoom]

It was prophesied, not ordained. God cannot make anyone sin. If it was ordained, then Judas would have had no choice.

Why is it so easy to make it seem like God makes people sin?

Bad choice of words on my part. But it's true that from the start, Judas was not a true believer. There's plenty of evidence that he wasn't and little that he was. That's the only important point I'm trying to make.

Interesting question: When Jesus chose Judas, did He know Judas would betray him? I think yes.