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Justification by Faith

Nathan said:
No, not "great" faith - just the faith God gives you - however great or small.

Parable of the talents is a wise one to study for this knowledge.
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actually i agree with you. that was to be a question/ statement it should have read so i should have great faith.. our faith is very important and is a great key in our walk with Christ ... BUT faith alone never saved anyone... saved by Grace Through faith
By Faith We Understand
11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. we accept our justification (just as if we never sinned ) by faith. on Judas i doubt he was truly saved. i have read in commentaries he was. in reference to eternal security . i really have no way of knowing. but the o.p puzzles me lose faith? heck you ask a drunk if he has faith he will say yes. Bible talks about the faith of the size of a mustard seed . but Grace is the saving element what is Grace the unmerited favor of God through his son Jesus
 
Cygnus said:
the Bible teaches you can't be snatched from Jesus' hands.
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

...if you can lose your justification..salvation....then the Bible is wrong and you can be snatched from Jesus' hand.
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Cygnus,

This is what happens when you take one verse (John 10:28) out of context. John 10:27-28 (ESV) states:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

There is a condition stated here by our Saviour in v. 27. Verse 28 is conditioned upon the necessity of hearing His voice, knowing Him, and following Him.

Jesus gives a similar message in the parable of the true vine:

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing (John 15:1-5 ESV).​

So the Father cuts off every branch [Christian] that doesn’t produce fruit. To avoid being cut off, v. 4 is very clear, 'Remain in me, and I will remain in you' (NLT).

Oz
 
OzSpen said:
Cygnus,

This is what happens when you take one verse (John 10:28) out of context. John 10:27-28 (ESV) states:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

There is a condition stated here by our Saviour in v. 27. Verse 28 is conditioned upon the necessity of hearing His voice, knowing Him, and following Him.

Jesus gives a similar message in the parable of the true vine:

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing (John 15:1-5 ESV).​

So the Father cuts off every branch [Christian] that doesn’t produce fruit. To avoid being cut off, v. 4 is very clear, 'Remain in me, and I will remain in you' (NLT).

Oz
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hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

Verse 27 doesn't state "If my sheep hear my voice", but makes the statement: MY sheep hear my voice.
In verse 6 of John 15 there is something that doesn't agree with your interpretation: " men gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." Where is any scripture is it stated that men have the ability to cast any one into the fires of judgment.
 
Cygnus said:
Just like Judas....you also have no choice. You are elect or you're not.
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That's not what Peter told us about the elect exiles of the dispersion:

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

May grace and peace be multiplied to you (1 Peter 1:1-2 ESV, emphasis added).​

Oz
 
OzSpen said:
That's not what Peter told us about the elect exiles of the dispersion:

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

May grace and peace be multiplied to you (1 Peter 1:1-2 ESV, emphasis added).​

Oz
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hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

Most people don't understand "elect exiles of the Diaspora."
 
dirtfarmer said:
hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

Verse 27 doesn't state "If my sheep hear my voice", but makes the statement: MY sheep hear my voice.
In verse 6 of John 15 there is something that doesn't agree with your interpretation: " men gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." Where is any scripture is it stated that men have the ability to cast any one into the fires of judgment.
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Again, you don't seem to understand the meaning of the Greek present tense of continuous action. Verse 27 states: 'My sheep hear [Gk present tense, continue to hear] my voice, and I know [Gk present tense, continue to know] them, and they follow [Gk present tense, continue to follow] me. 28 I give [Gk present tense, continue to give] them eternal life.

Eternal life is only for those who continue to believe. Those who apostatize (like Judas Iscariot, Charles Templeton, and others) lose their elect status, justification, and eternal life. That's Bible.

Oz
 
Cygnus said:
Sure, why not?

I haven't seen (actual)free will work concerning salvation.
You now, why would you choose christ and another not?
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because it is a choice when he knocks on the door of our heart we are the only one who can open it . can a person be saved on their own /as to just say one day i will get saved? NO
 
OzSpen said:
Again, you don't seem to understand the meaning of the Greek present tense of continuous action. Verse 27 states: 'My sheep hear [Gk present tense, continue to hear] my voice, and I know [Gk present tense, continue to know] them, and they follow [Gk present tense, continue to follow] me. 28 I give [Gk present tense, continue to give] them eternal life.

Eternal life is only for those who continue to believe. Those who apostatize (like Judas Iscariot, Charles Templeton, and others) lose their elect status, justification, and eternal life. That's Bible.

Oz
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Then the cross is only necessary but not sufficient. It's Jesus plus me. I get eternal life as long as I, not Christ, continue to do stuff. Like continue to follow Him and do what He has said. What am I missing?
 
Papa Zoom said:
Then the cross is only necessary but not sufficient. It's Jesus plus me. I get eternal life as long as I, not Christ, continue to do stuff. Like continue to follow Him and do what He has said. What am I missing?
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If you think that you can be a disciple of Christ without obeying His commands then you are very sadly mistaken.
By His death and resurrection Jesus destroyed the power of sin to cause permanent death to mankind. We can add nothing to that because we have all sinned and earned the wages of our sin which is death.
Jesus destroyed death's power over mankind. We will all be raised.
But only those who do the will of the Father, in obedience to Jesus' commands will be saved.
At Mat 28:19 Jesus told His disciples to go and make DISCIPLES of all nations and at verse 20 HE said to teach them to OBEY everything He had taught them.
Disciples OBEY Jesus commands.
Believing that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for our sins but not obeying His commands makes a person a FAN of Jesus but not a disciple. Jesus said to make disciples, not fans.
So, absolutely, "continue to follow Him and do what He has said."

At the last judgment, we will have eternal life based on what we DID not on what we believed.

iakov the fool
 
OzSpen said:
Again, you don't seem to understand the meaning of the Greek present tense of continuous action. Verse 27 states: 'My sheep hear [Gk present tense, continue to hear] my voice, and I know [Gk present tense, continue to know] them, and they follow [Gk present tense, continue to follow] me. 28 I give [Gk present tense, continue to give] them eternal life.

Eternal life is only for those who continue to believe. Those who apostatize (like Judas Iscariot, Charles Templeton, and others) lose their elect status, justification, and eternal life. That's Bible.

Oz
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hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

I believe that I understand the meaning of the Greek present tense of continuous action. Continuous denotes no break in the action. To apostatize there would have to be a break in action and a stop of the "continuous" action.

How does present tense go to past tense? If it is present then, is it present tense now. "My sheep hear my voice and I know them" is present tense and the action is continuous. There is no room for a stopage. As you have said: "I give[Gk present tense, continue to know ], I don't see any break in the action that is conveyed.
 
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