Justification by Faith

[dirtfarmer]

If you think that you can be a disciple of Christ without obeying His commands then you are very sadly mistaken.
By His death and resurrection Jesus destroyed the power of sin to cause permanent death to mankind. We can add nothing to that because we have all sinned and earned the wages of our sin which is death.
Jesus destroyed death's power over mankind. We will all be raised.
But only those who do the will of the Father, in obedience to Jesus' commands will be saved.
At Mat 28:19 Jesus told His disciples to go and make DISCIPLES of all nations and at verse 20 HE said to teach them to OBEY everything He had taught them.
Disciples OBEY Jesus commands.
Believing that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for our sins but not obeying His commands makes a person a FAN of Jesus but not a disciple. Jesus said to make disciples, not fans.
So, absolutely, "continue to follow Him and do what He has said."

At the last judgment, we will have eternal life based on what we DID not on what we believed.

iakov the fool

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

I have one question: Which death does the power of sin cause permanent death? We all are going to die physically unless Christ returns during our physical life, so, the power of death that Christ destroyed was spiritual death. Only those that remain in unbelief until they die a physical death will also suffer spiritual death also.

As to your last statement that is the definition of works based salvation.

 

[OzSpen]

i could but you wouldnt understand no offense . just have faith and all will be well

Is that a leap of faith?

 

[OzSpen]

hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

I believe that I understand the meaning of the Greek present tense of continuous action. Continuous denotes no break in the action. To apostatize there would have to be a break in action and a stop of the "continuous" action.

How does present tense go to past tense? If it is present then, is it present tense now. "My sheep hear my voice and I know them" is present tense and the action is continuous. There is no room for a stopage. As you have said: "I give[Gk present tense, continue to know ], I don't see any break in the action that is conveyed.

dirtfarmer,

For there to be eternal life for anyone, one must continue to hear God's voice, continue to know him, and continue to follow the Saviour.

The present tense becomes past tense when this takes place:

12 Brothers and sisters, make sure that none of you has a sinful heart. Do not let an unbelieving heart turn you away from the living God. 13 But build one another up every day. Do it as long as there is still time. Then none of you will become stubborn. You won’t be fooled by sin’s tricks. 14 We belong to Christ if we hold tightly to the faith we had at first. But we must hold it tightly until the end (Heb 3:12-14 NIRV, emphasis added).​

Why don't you understand what the Scriptures clearly state?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Then the cross is only necessary but not sufficient. It's Jesus plus me. I get eternal life as long as I, not Christ, continue to do stuff. Like continue to follow Him and do what He has said. What am I missing?

Papa,

That's a false view of what I stated. Christ's sacrifice is absolutely sufficient. Salvation is NEVER Jesus + me.

What did Paul and Silas tell the Philippian jailer to answer his question, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' (Acts 16:30). Their response was NOT, 'Jesus will do the believing for you; he will drag you unconditionally into the Kingdom.' It was a command: '[You] believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household' (Acts 16:31 ESV).

Salvation is provided through Christ alone but there will be no salvation unless a person responds in faith to the Gospel message of salvation. That's Bible.

There was no forced salvation for the Philippian jailer and his household.

Oz

 

[Papa Zoom]

Papa,

That's a false view of what I stated. Christ's sacrifice is absolutely sufficient. Salvation is NEVER Jesus + me.

What did Paul and Silas tell the Philippian jailer to answer his question, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' (Acts 16:30). Their response was NOT, 'Jesus will do the believing for you; he will drag you unconditionally into the Kingdom.' It was a command: '[You] believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household' (Acts 16:31 ESV).

Salvation is provided through Christ alone but there will be no salvation unless a person responds in faith to the Gospel message of salvation. That's Bible.

There was no forced salvation for the Philippian jailer and his household.

Oz

True that salvation isn't forced. But it does seem that it's being taught here that once a person is saved, they must, by their own effort, persevere or they will lose their salvation. Even belief isn't completely by our own effort right? It's the Holy Spirit at work in us that draws us to God. True believers grow in Christ. They are new creatures. The old is gone. And they will be completed in Christ. That is a promise of God. Only by a work of the Holy Spirit in our lives can we live faithfully. And since God is for us, we will complete the journey. Unless our faith was not genuine. Perseverance is the mark of a true believer in Jesus.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer,

For there to be eternal life for anyone, one must continue to hear God's voice, continue to know him, and continue to follow the Saviour.

The present tense becomes past tense when this takes place:

12 Brothers and sisters, make sure that none of you has a sinful heart. Do not let an unbelieving heart turn you away from the living God. 13 But build one another up every day. Do it as long as there is still time. Then none of you will become stubborn. You won’t be fooled by sin’s tricks. 14 We belong to Christ if we hold tightly to the faith we had at first. But we must hold it tightly until the end (Heb 3:12-14 NIRV, emphasis added).​

Why don't you understand what the Scriptures clearly state?

Oz

hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

What is the "sinful heart" ? is it not an unbelieving heart? In v14 "hold it tightly until the end" is not in reference to the end of one's life but has referenced to the end of the age, which has been several 100's of years.

How are we to know that scripture that was written in present tense has been changed to past tense? I prefer to accept the scripture in present tense, as it is written

 

[Nathan]

True that salvation isn't forced. But it does seem that it's being taught here that once a person is saved, they must, by their own effort, persevere or they will lose their salvation. Even belief isn't completely by our own effort right? It's the Holy Spirit at work in us that draws us to God. True believers grow in Christ. They are new creatures. The old is gone. And they will be completed in Christ. That is a promise of God. Only by a work of the Holy Spirit in our lives can we live faithfully. And since God is for us, we will complete the journey. Unless our faith was not genuine. Perseverance is the mark of a true believer in Jesus.

I wouldn't call it perseverance. It's actually called endurance.

Word search "endure" and "endurance", and see what they speak of.

The difference is perseverance is based on our ability to do something, endurance is based on His work in us.

One is a works based salvation, the other is a faith based one.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I wouldn't call it perseverance. It's actually called endurance.

Word search "endure" and "endurance", and see what they speak of.

The difference is perseverance is based on our ability to do something, endurance is based on His work in us.

One is a works based salvation, the other is a faith based one.

Depends on which theologian you ask. Doesn't matter, if endurance is based on the work of God, it is, then eternal security is a slam dunk. Eternal security is guaranteed. Because it's a work of God. You've practically said this yourself. Unless now your going to say that endurance is based in His work but...........

If a but follows, then we're back to a work of our own effort.

 

[Papa Zoom]

And BTW, persevere and endure are listed as synonymous by dictionary.com.
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/persevere

 

[OzSpen]

hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

What is the "sinful heart" ? is it not an unbelieving heart? In v14 "hold it tightly until the end" is not in reference to the end of one's life but has referenced to the end of the age, which has been several 100's of years.

How are we to know that scripture that was written in present tense has been changed to past tense? I prefer to accept the scripture in present tense, as it is written

dirtfarmer,

The problem with your reasoning about the 'sinful heart' is that it contradicts one of the verses I quoted from Heb 3:12, 'Brothers and sisters, make sure that none of you has a sinful heart. Do not let an unbelieving heart turn you away from the living God' (NIRV).

The writer is addressing 'brothers and sisters' who can get 'a sinful heart' and this 'unbelieving heart' (developed by a brother or sister - a believer) would 'turn you away from the living God'.

Why can't you see this clear teaching from Scripture?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

True that salvation isn't forced. But it does seem that it's being taught here that once a person is saved, they must, by their own effort, persevere or they will lose their salvation. Even belief isn't completely by our own effort right? It's the Holy Spirit at work in us that draws us to God. True believers grow in Christ. They are new creatures. The old is gone. And they will be completed in Christ. That is a promise of God. Only by a work of the Holy Spirit in our lives can we live faithfully. And since God is for us, we will complete the journey. Unless our faith was not genuine. Perseverance is the mark of a true believer in Jesus.

Papa,

You say that 'salvation isn't forced'. Then, what do you think unconditional election is?

You are subtle in accusing me of teaching that people are saved 'by their own effort' and persevere by their own effort or 'lose their salvation'. That's a false view of what I believe.

I understand that Heb 3:12-15 teaches that brothers and sisters in Christ can allow 'an evil, unbelieving heart' to 'lead them to fall away from the living God' (v. 12 ESV). I'm inventing nothing. That's Scripture.

To stop this from happening, what are other Christians to do? 'Exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today”, that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin' (Heb 3:13 ESV). As long as we are on this earth, sin will tempt and deceive us and there is the potential of developing an 'evil, unbelieving heart' that may cause us to 'fall away from the living God'. Should this section of Scripture be cut out of the Bible?

Our biblical responsibility is to exhort other believers while we have the opportunity to avoid the deceitfulness of sin and cause them to develop evil, unbelieving hearts. Caring for one another in the faith is critical for continuing growth as believers.

You stated: 'Since God is for us, we will complete the journey. Unless our faith was not genuine'. That's not what Heb 3:12-15 (ESV) teaches. Those people were 'brothers and sisters' in Christ - Christians - but they had to be warned about the danger of developing an evil, unbelieving heart through the deceitfulness of sin. Not a word was stated here about their faith not being genuine.

Seems like your presuppositions are clouding your exegesis of Heb 3:12-15 that I have raised in this thread.

I did notice that you left out referring to Acts 16:30-31 and the encounter of Paul, Silas and the Philippian jailer.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Depends on which theologian you ask. Doesn't matter, if endurance is based on the work of God, it is, then eternal security is a slam dunk. Eternal security is guaranteed. Because it's a work of God. You've practically said this yourself. Unless now your going to say that endurance is based in His work but...........

If a but follows, then we're back to a work of our own effort.

Papa,

Eternal security is not guaranteed because there are warning passages that demonstrate the possibility of falling away from the faith (Heb 3:12-15; 6:4-6; 10:35-39; 1 Tim 1:19).

However, the saints of God are those who persevere to the end of life. 'Perseverance of the saints' is a biblical doctrine (Matt 24:13 ESV), not eternal security or once-saved-always-saved. Read the context in Matt 24:9-14 (ESV) to see examples of many falling away in the last of the last days. They cannot fall away from something they never had.

Oz

 

[ezra]

Is that a leap of faith?

depends on what the leap is

 

[OzSpen]

depends on what the leap is

Is it faith based on evidence or faith without evidence?

 

[ezra]

Is it faith based on evidence or faith without evidence?

no time for games have a good day

 

[Cygnus]

Cygnus,

This is what happens when you take one verse (John 10:28) out of context. John 10:27-28 (ESV) states:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

There is a condition stated here by our Saviour in v. 27. Verse 28 is conditioned upon the necessity of hearing His voice, knowing Him, and following Him.

Jesus gives a similar message in the parable of the true vine:

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing (John 15:1-5 ESV).​

So the Father cuts off every branch [Christian] that doesn’t produce fruit. To avoid being cut off, v. 4 is very clear, 'Remain in me, and I will remain in you' (NLT).

Oz

Let me put it to you this way....I believe if it were possible to use your salvation.....you already have. You haven't done enough or followed enough to remain saved. In fact nobody can do enough or follow enough.

 

[Cygnus]

hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

Most people don't understand "elect exiles of the Diaspora."

The elect exiles were simply saved people living as strangers in a different land....living as foreigners...To those who reside as aliens...temporary residents...and so on.

 

[Cygnus]

because it is a choice when he knocks on the door of our heart we are the only one who can open it . can a person be saved on their own /as to just say one day i will get saved? NO

It is God who opens our hearts. Not us.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer,

The problem with your reasoning about the 'sinful heart' is that it contradicts one of the verses I quoted from Heb 3:12, 'Brothers and sisters, make sure that none of you has a sinful heart. Do not let an unbelieving heart turn you away from the living God' (NIRV).

The writer is addressing 'brothers and sisters' who can get 'a sinful heart' and this 'unbelieving heart' (developed by a brother or sister - a believer) would 'turn you away from the living God'.

Why can't you see this clear teaching from Scripture?

Oz

hello OzSpen, dirtfarmer here

The "clear teaching from scripture" that you reference is an example of not rightly dividing the word of truth. Have you ever considered that from Romans to Philemon that the word "priest" in any form is never used by Paul, who is the apostle to the heathen(Gentiles). It is my belief that Paul wrote the Hebrews letter to a Jewish audience proving Christ is superior to the law.

 

[Cygnus]

For there to be eternal life for anyone, one must continue to hear God's voice, continue to know him, and continue to follow the Saviour.

If that is true, nobody is saved. That's the problem with merit base....you must be this way....salvation.
Some days I'm pretty good at doing the above....other days not so much. The "you must be this way" theology condemns the person not walking the legalistic path.