KEEPING THE FAITH

[Jethro Bodine]

You have given me no reason by your behavior to think you do not have the Spirit of God in you in salvation.

I am a little concerned that you may think a person is justified (made righteous and, therefore, qualified for the kingdom) by their works. That doesn't automatically have to mean you do not believe a person is justified by faith apart works. And so I make no judgment about you concerning that. I had confusion about this in the first couple years of my salvation, despite the fact that I was very much born again at the time.

A Christian is evidenced by his fruits Jethro, which are his teachings and conduct. Not saying they are perfect, or even close, but Christians will rarely commit a serious sin, if ever, and if they do they will instantly repent, and do their utmost not to commit that sin again.

Do you believe that the person who believes in Christ's sacrifice is given the righteousness of God (justified) in that moment of belief, and is then seen as being in perfect right standing with God from that moment forward?

 

[evenifigoalone]

You know I'm sure it's mainly the depression talking.....
But I really just want to say screw it and cut off all unnecessary communication with the rest of the world. Show up for work and maybe a scant few other functions, and that's it. Otherwise be at home and stop puting myself out there.

 

[Highway54]

Those verses do not at all
support this unheard of idea that Jesus made a covenant with those 11 and no other. The people singing in those verses were not merely the 11. And much of the New Testament was written by them not to them.

That’s pretty demeaning and insulting! Our wondering has more than seemingly a “grasp” on these things. She a fairly good and deep understanding of these things. She is quite knowledgeable and one of the better posters here when it comes to understanding and character.



That’s fairly obvious.

Those verses do not at all
support this unheard of idea that Jesus made a covenant with those 11 and no other.

The covenant was initially made with the 11 as I stated, and it would extend to 144,000 total.

And much of the New Testament was written by them not to them.

No maam, authored by Jehovah, penned by His witnesses, for His witnesses. Most of the letters are addressed to those of the covenant, usually in the first few verses of the Book, perhaps you have never noticed that Dorothy.

 

[Highway54]

Fruits are not teaching. It is character. I know Christians who’ve committed every thing except murder. They didn’t repent. And some of these sins were crimes.

Christians imitate Christ maam, perhaps you might give me the passages where Jesus committed everything but murder. By your own admission, their fruit indicated they were not Jesus' followers.

 

[Highway54]

Please answer how the “knowledge of God is taken in?”

Be glad to, but you answer my question, then I will address yours.

 

[Highway54]

Well, obviously you don't have the 'saved from God's wrath at Jesus' return' part completed yet. No one does. But that doesn't mean you're not saved now, or can not be saved in this life, as I've shown you from scripture. It's okay to say you're saved. In fact, the Bible exhorts us to confirm our salvation by purposely seeking to do that which "accompanies salvation".

8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.

9Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so. Hebrews 6:8-10

Your love for God and your labor of love for the saints indicates the presence of salvation. If the author thought you could not called yourself saved until you walk through the pearly gates then he would not speak about things that accompany salvation, for you couldn't have salvation now for anything to be accompanying it.

Don't ignore these present tense mentions of salvation in scripture. Just because you may well stop believing and go back to your sins doesn't mean you weren't saved before you did that. That just means you did not remain in the Father and the Son because you did not let the word remain in you (1 John 2:24-25).


Nobody who is not a Christian now will be saved when Jesus comes back unless they someday between now and then believe in and receive God's offer of forgiveness through Christ. But everyone who does that is saved with certainty, now, in this life and will pass safely through the coming judgment (John 5:24), and they will remain saved if they let the word of that forgiveness remain in them (1 John 2:24-25).

Nobody who is not a Christian now will be saved when Jesus comes back unless they someday between now and then believe in and receive God's offer of forgiveness through Christ.

To a degree I agree with this Jethro, but the door isn't shut yet. At the point of Jesus' return, those who do not know God or obey the gospel then will be judged as goats and destroyed. 2 Thes 1:6-9

 

[Highway54]

Yes, and that's what I was keying off of. Christians are the dust of the earth that he presently rules. One day, as you know, he will rule every particle of dust of a redeemed and recreated earth.

On this we agree.

 

[Highway54]

What is the significance of who the book of 2 Corinthians was written to in regard to the context of our discussion above, which I think was about being born again?

It should be fairly obvious Jethro, as the book was in fact written to those who are born again. Perhaps you are confused by the many titles they are called. Perhaps you do not realize that the title born again is the same as Christ which means anointed. All born again Christians are anointed by holy spirit, and will reside in heaven as Kings and Priests with Jesus as his bride, another title they are referred to by. Take note of verse 1 which states who the book was written to: 2co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints that are in the whole of Achaia:

a&gioß Hagios (hag'-ee-os);
Word Origin: Greek, Adjective, Strong #: 40
most holy thing, a saint
KJV Word Usage and Count
holy 161
saints 61
Holy One 4
miscellaneous 3

NWT: (2 Corinthians 1:1) . . .Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, and Timothy our brother, to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, including all the holy ones who are in all A·chaʹia:

 

[Highway54]

Do you believe that the person who believes in Christ's sacrifice is given the righteousness of God (justified) in that moment of belief, and is then seen as being in perfect right standing with God from that moment forward?

Not if they do not press on to maturity sir, I would agree that at that time it would be so, but we do not just accept Christ and that is the end, that is just the beginning.
(Hebrews 10:36-39) . . .For you need endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the fulfillment of the promise. 37 For yet “a very little while,” and “the one who is coming will arrive and will not delay.” 38 “But my righteous one will live by reason of faith,” and “if he shrinks back, I have no pleasure in him.” 39 Now we are not the sort who shrink back to destruction, but the sort who have faith for the preserving of our lives.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not if they do not press on to maturity sir, I would agree that at that time it would be so, but we do not just accept Christ and that is the end, that is just the beginning.

The point is, not pressing onto maturity and falling away into unbelief does not mean you did not have the righteousness that is from God before you fell away. You are most certainly saved at the moment you believe and are justified, just as Abraham our example was.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It should be fairly obvious Jethro, as the book was in fact written to those who are born again. Perhaps you are confused by the many titles they are called. Perhaps you do not realize that the title born again is the same as Christ which means anointed. All born again Christians are anointed by holy spirit, and will reside in heaven as Kings and Priests with Jesus as his bride, another title they are referred to by. Take note of verse 1 which states who the book was written to: 2co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints that are in the whole of Achaia:

a&gioß Hagios (hag'-ee-os);
Word Origin: Greek, Adjective, Strong #: 40
most holy thing, a saint
KJV Word Usage and Count
holy 161
saints 61
Holy One 4
miscellaneous 3

NWT: (2 Corinthians 1:1) . . .Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, and Timothy our brother, to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, including all the holy ones who are in all A·chaʹia:

It's not a book for a special group of God's people. It's a book to born again believers. Everyone who has received the Spirit of God in justification is born again.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You know I'm sure it's mainly the depression talking.....
But I really just want to say screw it and cut off all unnecessary communication with the rest of the world. Show up for work and maybe a scant few other functions, and that's it. Otherwise be at home and stop puting myself out there.

Doesn't sound too terribly different from what I'm feeling sometimes. God has graciously given me a vibrant personal life of praise and worship full of his Spirit that keeps me going. It makes me want nothing but Jesus and keeps me looking to the future when I leave this world behind forever!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To a degree I agree with this Jethro, but the door isn't shut yet. At the point of Jesus' return, those who do not know God or obey the gospel then will be judged as goats and destroyed. 2 Thes 1:6-9

And so just as the lost are lost right now, so the saved are saved right now, too.

If you believe and have received the Spirit you are saved, right now. The goal now is to keep believing and remain saved. The attempt to become a saved person is over. Now what's left to do is live as the saved person you are, not try to become one. If anybody is still trying to become a saved person they're either living under bad teaching or they really haven't made peace with God through justification yet.

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ Romans 5:1

 

[Riven]

You know I'm sure it's mainly the depression talking.....
But I really just want to say screw it and cut off all unnecessary communication with the rest of the world. Show up for work and maybe a scant few other functions, and that's it. Otherwise be at home and stop puting myself out there.

It's not a good idea.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Truth of God points inevitably to Him. If a person only lets the truth abide in them but not its Author, if they only know the facts about God but do not have a direct, personal experience of Him every day, I very much doubt that He actually dwells in them. Certainly, possessing a knowledge of the facts constituting the truth is not the same as being possessed of the One from whom that truth ultimately issued.

The problem with interpreting 1 John 2:24-25 as you are is that you are saying John is telling unbelievers to continue in a knowledge that has not saved them so they will remain a Father, and Son, and promise of eternal life they do not have (because the knowledge they have is not salvific).

That's not the message John would give to people he thought had knowledgeable but were unsaved. He would, of course, tell them to believe what they heard and get saved, But as it is, that is not what he tells them, so we know he's talking to born again believers, not just people with head knowledge about the gospel.

But we know right from the letter itself that John is addressing born again people, not unsaved people with just knowledge about the gospel:

12I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven through His name.

13I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who is from the beginning.

I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one.b

I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.

14I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who is from the beginning.

I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. 1 John 2:12-14

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Christians imitate Christ maam, perhaps you might give me the passages where Jesus committed everything but murder. By your own admission, their fruit indicated they were not Jesus' followers.

I will answer this for the sake of others. Those who keep the faith over the course of their lives are not going to be those whose behavior always reflected everything Jesus did, lacking everything he did not do. The decision to measure (everyone else) by that standard reflects a harsh judgemental kind of christianity lacking the elements of a living relationship.

Good marriages that “keep the faith promised on the wedding day” are not those comprised of perfect behaviour. Anyone in relationship knows this standard is unrealistic and the measurement of a relationship where the “faith was kept” is not a list of rules. It’s more dynamic with many facets.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The covenant was initially made with the 11 as I stated, and it would extend to 144,000 total.

Repeating it doesn’t make it so. There’s no mention of a covenant when the144,000 are mentioned in Revelation. But I know that’s a significant number to JWs.

No maam, authored by Jehovah, penned by His witnesses, for His witnesses.

They didn’t say that. It says scripture is “inspired” not “authored” by Elohim.

Most of the letters are addressed to those of the covenant, usually in the first few verses of the Book, perhaps you have never noticed that Dorothy.

No one noticed it who isn’t a JW because it’s nit there.

Can you get back to the OP please?

 

[Tenchi]

The problem with interpreting 1 John 2:24-25 as you are is that you are saying John is telling unbelievers to continue in a knowledge that has not saved them so they will remain a Father, and Son, and promise of eternal life they do not have (because the knowledge they have is not salvific).

That's not the message John would give to people he thought had knowledgeable but were unsaved. He would, of course, tell them to believe what they heard and get saved, But as it is, that is not what he tells them, so we know he's talking to born again believers, not just people with head knowledge about the gospel.

But we know right from the letter itself that John is addressing born again people, not unsaved people with just knowledge about the gospel:

12I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven through His name.

13I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who is from the beginning.

I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one.b

I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.

14I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who is from the beginning.

I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. 1 John 2:12-14

1 John 2:18-25 (NASB)
18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.
21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

In verses 18-19 in the passage above from 1 John 2, the apostle John referred to "many antichrists" saying that "they (antichrists) went out from us" because "they were not really of us." In these remarks, John acknowledged that within the precincts of the Church, false brethren could be found, antichrists, who denied that Jesus was the Christ (vs. 22). It is by no means certain, then, that John intended only to address believers in his letter, that he thought his audience would be constituted only of born-again people. In fact, he seemed to write directly to these "antichrists" (and would-be antichrists) in verses 22-23, describing their false doctrine and calling them liars, warning them that to deny the Christ the Son was to deny God the Father.

Having addressed the "antichrists" and their false teaching, John then directed his comments again to those he called "children" (vs. 18), saying, "As for you..., etc. (vs. 24). I point all this out to explain that I don't think John (or any of the New Testament letter writers) thought they were writing to a pristine Church, occupied only by genuine believers who alone would read (or hear) their words. This expectation is reflected in a number of instances throughout the NT where, I think, the audience in view is actually, not the born-again person, but the "tares" that had infiltrated the Early Church.

In any case, my last remark to you wasn't an interpretation of 1 John 2:24-25 but just a general observation about those within the Church who know the Truth but do not live in accord with it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I point all this out to explain that I don't think John (or any of the New Testament letter writers) thought they were writing to a pristine Church, occupied only by genuine believers who alone would read (or hear) their words. This expectation is reflected in a number of instances throughout the NT where, I think, the audience in view is actually, not the born-again person, but the "tares" that had infiltrated the Early Church.

The problem is you have John telling tares in the church to let the word they heard in the beginning remain in them in order to remain in a Father, Son , and promise of eternal life they are not in for them to remain in. You have to be in something already to remain in it. John is quite clearly addressing saved people, not unsaved people who have nothing to remain in. 1 John 2:24-25.

Can a genuinely saved person not let the word of God remain in them? I don't know. I just know the Bible says it has to in order to remain in the Father and the Son and the promise of eternal life. That much is abundantly clear. Even Calvinists know you have to continue to believe to be saved when Jesus comes back. They just think that will always happen in true beluevers.

 

[Highway54]

The point is, not pressing onto maturity and falling away into unbelief does not mean you did not have the righteousness that is from God before you fell away. You are most certainly saved at the moment you believe and are justified, just as Abraham our example was.

Time will tell Jethro.