KEEPING THE FAITH

[Riven]

That would explain a lot of seemingly anti Christian people in my Bible Belt area who can quote scripture all day long….

They exist in the bible belt?

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think they’re everywhere…

But here people put crosses on everything and wear Jesus merchandise and act ridiculous.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I must admit Christianity feels very unappealing right now. And I don't know why I'm sharing that on this site as most of the members these days seem to want to argue or point fingers instead of meeting people where they are at.

I won't leave the faith. Probably not. I'm just going through a rough patch.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It made me laugh...

I’m glad!

You speak of an inborn error.
Actually, this is a good way of putting it.
Before Adam ate, he was innocent and did not know evil/sin - he did not have the knowledge of it.
After Adam ate he was no longer innocent, he knew evil/sin - this is why he became ashamed. He was no longer innocent.

Yes that’s the message.

This "uninnocent" thing that was now a part of him was passed on to every human being through conception.

That’s what augustine taught. Was not heard of before him. It is not in scripture but anyone can see why it’s appealing. Sin isn’t your fault.

Every new human had this error passed on to him.

No scriptural basis for this. That’s why you have to explain it.

We are no longer the innocent beings that Adam was before he ate.

Babies are innocent of sin since it’s something we choose to do.

THIS ERROR is what the sin nature is...some call it concupiscence.
Some call it the flesh.

Concupiscence is something else. It means sensual arousal to sin but I know catholic and lutheran theologians changed the meaning same as Calvinists changed the meaning of depraved to suit their needs.

I hope you're not mixing up the innocence of a child with what the sin nature is.

What’s the difference? Jesus only saw the innocence of children’s as did every bible author. “Sin nature” (a term not found in scripture) came centuries later.

Children are born with the sin nature but they are NOT held accountable for their sins UNTIL
they know what a sin is and do it anyway - this happens at different ages for different persons.

That the theology, for sure. It’s just never expressed in scripture.

Also, I fear you're speaking about original sin and Augustine.
I don't care for Augustine and try not to mention him.

He invented the doctrine.

The early church always understood and accepted original sin....

No, they never heard of it til Augustine (meaning the first century church.)

but not until him in the 4th century was its understanding changed.
I can only tell you that even the CC does not agree with him on this.
Babies are not baptized because they go to hell if they die unbaptized.

We needn’t discuss Catholic doctrine.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Everyone I know who left the faith did so for the reasons Jesus said although all of them pointed to some reason that made it not their fault. Sometimes it was other people who acted in a way they didn’t approve of (“they judge lest they be judged”) or that the intellectual basis for believing seemed insufficient. In most, if not all cases, they simply wanted to sin in a way that christ doesn’t allow. So they got out from under.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't think you are not explaining it to where I cannot understand it maam, I can give you my thoughts on it though. Jesus made a covenant with his faithful 11 apostles on the day of his death after they ate the Passover meal. These ones of that covenant were purchased by the blood of Christ to be his bride for a special assignment. Much of the new testament was written to them, and gives the reason they were selected. If you want to attach the name spiritual Kingdom to part of the Kingdom of God, they would be it. They will reside in heaven, and will be Kings and Priests under King Jesus in that heavenly Kingdom. Rev 5:9,10; 14:3.

Those verses do not at all
support this unheard of idea that Jesus made a covenant with those 11 and no other. The people singing in those verses were not merely the 11. And much of the New Testament was written by them not to them.

It is really easy to understand if you realize why God created the earth, which you seem to already have a grasp on.

That’s pretty demeaning and insulting! Our wondering has more than seemingly a “grasp” on these things. She a fairly good and deep understanding of these things. She is quite knowledgeable and one of the better posters here when it comes to understanding and character.

hGod intended to populate the earth, and what goes forth out of His mouth will be fulfilled. Isa 55:11

That’s fairly obvious.

 

[Highway54]

Just because there are people who assume wrongly that they are saved doesn't mean no one is able to know if they are truly saved. John spells it out very clearly for us how to know if you or someone else is saved:

18Little children, let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth. 19And by this we will know that we belong to the truth, and will assure our hearts in His presence 1 John 3:18-19

14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death. 1 John 3:14

10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:10

7Little children,d let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.e 8The one who practices sin is of the devil 1 John 3:7-8


John goes on to say in the next chapter that we can indeed know what the day of judgment will hold for us:

16 God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him. 1 John 4:16-17

At this time I believe I am saved, and am confident that would be the judgment if it was now. I am also not ignorant that I could walk away tomorrow, I have done it in the past, but even in that we still hope that a favorable verdict would be issued. So I do not tell people I am saved, as it basically ignores the whole salvation process according to scripture. Many will be saved, but I seriously doubt that those who are not Christian will be, do you? That means now, as well as when the real point of salvation comes as well.

 

[Highway54]

I hope you understand that obedience to the law of Christ does not bestow the gift of eternal life on a person. It shows us if we already have the gift of everlasting life bestowed upon us. The gift is not bestowed in response to obeying the law of Christ. We obey the law of Christ because the gift has been bestowed on us. A lifestyle of obedience to 'love your neighbor as yourself' gives us the confidence that we are already saved and ready to face God in judgment.


That is true, most Christians think they are saved despite living unchanged, unconverted, godless lives. (I mean, those Christians who are living that way. Not all are, of course.) But God has given us lots of Biblical counsel to know if we are indeed ready to face him in judgment.

In regard to all churches as a whole, few Christians are ready and are not really converted as evidenced by their lawless lives. A widespread misunderstanding of "righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:6), and a lack of knowledge and teaching about what actually matters in the Christian life (Galatians 5:6) is to blame. If the leadership doesn't know these things, and generally speaking, they don't, then the sheep aren't going to know them either. Except believers who do not depend on and exalt churches who claim to be the 'one and only true church' (everybody thinks their church is the one and only true church), but rather read the Bible for themselves. They do know these truths because they're not being steered and indoctrinated by narrow, agenda driven, man made theologies and beliefs and practices.

Simply put Jethro, only Christians will be saved, and it is yet future when they receive it. We believe the born again Christians who have died have received it, but only they. But there is not one person on earth that has been given eternal life at this time, and that is simply the truth.

But I will say that in my opinion, some Christians living now may never die, ever.

 

[Highway54]

Then the soil of your heart constitutes the kingdom of God, the place in this earth where Christ rules. The fullness of the kingdom and his rule in the earth is yet to come, but for now the soil Christ rules is the soil of the hearts of men who belong to him in salvation, sealed and inhabited with the Holy Spirit.

He did compare the heart to soil in one of his illustrations Jethro, and how the Kingdom message would sprout.

 

[Highway54]

You have given me no reason by your behavior to think you do not have the Spirit of God in you in salvation.

I am a little concerned that you may think a person is justified (made righteous and, therefore, qualified for the kingdom) by their works. That doesn't automatically have to mean you do not believe a person is justified by faith apart works. And so I make no judgment about you concerning that. I had confusion about this in the first couple years of my salvation, despite the fact that I was very much born again at the time.

A Christian is evidenced by his fruits Jethro, which are his teachings and conduct. Not saying they are perfect, or even close, but Christians will rarely commit a serious sin, if ever, and if they do they will instantly repent, and do their utmost not to commit that sin again.

 

[Highway54]

Which book, John, or 2 Corinthians?


In John 5:24 'hears' and 'believes' are in the present tense. And 'has' is also in the present tense, indicative mood, meaning it is present with factuality and with certainty. And so Jesus is saying that the person who may be presently hearing and believing has with certainty crossed over from death to life.

24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.

Furthermore, 'has crossed over' is more than just in the present, but is the Perfect tense indicating that this is not only a completed action but one that does not need to be repeated and whose effects continue up to the present.

If you're doubtful that this does not apply to New Covenant gentiles, Paul says the same thing in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2.

1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

'Saved' and 'hold firmly' are in the present tense. The person who is presently believing, holding fast to the word of the gospel, is presently saved. Whether or not the presently believing person will still be saved on the day of judgement depends on whether or not they continue to retain the word in them in believing:

24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life. 1 John 2:24-25

So, the person who is presently believing is indeed very much saved and already has eternal life and has already crossed over from death to life. And, as we see from the 1 John passages I posted, the proof that you are really 'believing' is the evidence of your ever-increasing obedience to the law of Christ summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself'. IOW, your changed, and changing life. These are the people who can say with surety and confidence that they are indeed really saved and will pass safely through the coming judgment and into the eternal kingdom of God. And their works is not what accomplished this for them, but rather their faith that produced their works. Their works being only the evidence of their salvation, not the procurer of it.

Which book, John, or 2 Corinthians?

2 Cor sir.

We have came to the point of disagreement on saved Jethro.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

A Christian is evidenced by his fruits Jethro, which are his teachings and conduct. Not saying they are perfect, or even close, but Christians will rarely commit a serious sin, if ever, and if they do they will instantly repent, and do their utmost not to commit that sin again.

Fruits are not teaching. It is character. I know Christians who’ve committed every thing except murder. They didn’t repent. And some of these sins were crimes.

 

[Highway54]

“Take in the knowledge of God”…. never heard that as something we take in. How does that work exactly?

I almost couldn't resist maam, but was able to. What does the word know mean?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I almost couldn't resist maam, but was able to. What does the word know mean?

Please answer how the “knowledge of God is taken in?”

 

[Highway54]

We're not going to agree Highway.
You're talking about the FUTUE Kingdom of God
and I'm talking about a Kingdom that is right here, right now.
I gave some scripture but I see that it doesn't help.
We'll have to agree to disagree.

No doubt. I will say that I believe Jesus did become King in 1914 and therefore the Kingdom is established in heaven, and we are in the last days of this system which will not exceed a generation's life span. I believe we are very close to the outbreak of the tribulation, which will end with the earthly part of the Kingdom coming.

I rather imagine you will not agree with that, but I think you understand where I am coming from, and time alone will tell if the statement is correct or not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think they’re everywhere…

But here people put crosses on everything and wear Jesus merchandise and act ridiculous.

I'd rather live among them, which I do now, than the people I used to.

I learned by moving to the Bible belt (metropolitan areas not included) that all you have to have is Christian influence and culture to make your town decent and livable. It has a restraining effect by setting a baseline of moral conduct whether you're saved or not. I'll take it any day over the despicable people and the things they did in the area I used to live in.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So I do not tell people I am saved, as it basically ignores the whole salvation process according to scripture.

Well, obviously you don't have the 'saved from God's wrath at Jesus' return' part completed yet. No one does. But that doesn't mean you're not saved now, or can not be saved in this life, as I've shown you from scripture. It's okay to say you're saved. In fact, the Bible exhorts us to confirm our salvation by purposely seeking to do that which "accompanies salvation".

8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.

9Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so. Hebrews 6:8-10

Your love for God and your labor of love for the saints indicates the presence of salvation. If the author thought you could not called yourself saved until you walk through the pearly gates then he would not speak about things that accompany salvation, for you couldn't have salvation now for anything to be accompanying it.

Don't ignore these present tense mentions of salvation in scripture. Just because you may well stop believing and go back to your sins doesn't mean you weren't saved before you did that. That just means you did not remain in the Father and the Son because you did not let the word remain in you (1 John 2:24-25).

Many will be saved, but I seriously doubt that those who are not Christian will be, do you?

Nobody who is not a Christian now will be saved when Jesus comes back unless they someday between now and then believe in and receive God's offer of forgiveness through Christ. But everyone who does that is saved with certainty, now, in this life and will pass safely through the coming judgment (John 5:24), and they will remain saved if they let the word of that forgiveness remain in them (1 John 2:24-25).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He did compare the heart to soil in one of his illustrations Jethro, and how the Kingdom message would sprout.

Yes, and that's what I was keying off of. Christians are the dust of the earth that he presently rules. One day, as you know, he will rule every particle of dust of a redeemed and recreated earth.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Feeling more normal. I think last night was just the product of depression

 

[Jethro Bodine]

John 5:24
1 corinthians 15:1-2

I am born again. Just as the Bible says, the presently believing person is presently saved.

Read the Bible. And read it without the bias of a denomination. Let it tell you the truth.

Great for you sir. I am kind of glad it wasn't offered to me, but if it was I would accept the position, and no doubt you will not regret serving in that capacity at all. It is a great sacrifice for sure.

Are you talking about the position of being born again? All believing people who have received the gospel of Christ are born again (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Who was that book written to Jethro?

Which book, John, or 2 Corinthians?

2 Cor sir.

We have came to the point of disagreement on saved Jethro.

What is the significance of who the book of 2 Corinthians was written to in regard to the context of our discussion above, which I think was about being born again?