KEEPING THE FAITH

[GodsGrace]

No, you are assuming that that's what will happen in that scenario based on common sense, NOT because you are all knowing. Do you see the difference?

No, I don't see the difference.
I KNOW the baby will fall,
but I did not CAUSE him to fall.

God knows everything that will happen,
He's omniscient and preniscient.
He knows everything and He PREknows everything that will happen.
He knows everything knowledge wise (gee, I wonder why!)...
He also knows everything that is GOING to happen....
but God doesn't predestine what is going to happen.

This is an important concept to understand or what you're doing is blaming God for everything that happens!
Murders, child abuse, rape, shootings, etc.

God absolutely KNOWS these things are going to happen...
we have the free will to do what we want to do....
Does this mean God caused all of the above evil things to happen?

That's certainly true if we have free will.


Good question. I don't know.


If you are all knowing, and you know someone's future, then you know every choice they are ever going to make in their life. Because you are all knowing, you can't be wrong, so the person cannot make a choice that contradicts what you already know is going to happen in the future.

Let's say the person changes their mind...
God knows that too.
IOW, God knows the choice the person is going to make,
He didn't predestine that choice.
They could change their mind and order chocolate instead of vanilla ice-cream at the very last moment...
but
ah!
God KNEW they would do that!

Because if he knew Adam would fail, it means Adam never could have not failed because God is all knowing. Adam could not defy God by performing any action that contradicted what God already knew about Adam's future.

Think about how this would make God responsible for every evil action that takes place on earth.

Why did it have to be gradual? Was the sudden appearance to Moses gradual? Was Jesus and the crucifixion gradual?

Yes!
The early Hebrews didn't know Jesus was going to have to die.
It was a gradual revelation.
When you studied science - did you get right into quantum physics in the 2nd or 3rd grade?
No.
You worked your way up to this complex knowledge, a little at a time.
And, even then, we still don't really understand it.
Exactly like God.

Why do you think God wanted to keep the knowledge of evil from Adam & Eve?

So they could live happily ever after.
So they could be the stewards in the Garden and rule over animals and nature.
Adam named the animals because he ruled over them.
Now, if we go into the jungle, we have to be careful that some animal doesn't attack us. We are no longer at peace with nature.

Adam and Eve had preternatural gifts that they lost at the fall.
Immortality
Infused knowledge
Absence of the Sin Natue

After three days?

LOL
No. After 3 days a man in the belly of a big fish would be found dead.
Jesus referred to this moment in the story of Nineveh.
That He would come back after 3 days like Jonah.
Luke 11:29
And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonah the prophet. For as Jonah was a sign unto the Ninevites, so also shall the Son of man be to this generation.

Maybe Jonah was a miracle?
Maybe it was a sign, as Jesus stated.

Well, the Catholic church has a patchy history with investigations. I'm very reluctant to believe anything they say. More over, if this is indeed true, the Catholic church has missed out on a huge payday from James Randi.

One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I trust it.
They also offer real exorcists for those in need.

 

[GodsGrace]

Adam and Eve serve as the picture of what happens to each and every one of us. We are like Adam and Eve, created unclothed and unprepared to deal with the temptations of the devil and the flesh. The commandment, when it comes, proves that to us. And that is God's intention. He wants his creation to understand their need to be clothed with Christ, prepared to resist the corrupt desires of the flesh and the devil who instigates obedience to those corrupt desires. No mortal is born that way (except John the Baptist). Like Adam and Eve we are born alive apart from the law, but naked, and when the commandment comes we sin and die and become aware of our nakedness.

9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10So I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through the commandment put me to death.
Romans 7:9-11

Bottom line is, just understand Adam and Eve as a pattern of all of mankind, not some plan for a perfect race of people (had they not eaten the fruit) that went awry and which got replaced with another plan.

I love the story of Adam and Eve.
I don't even take it literally....it was inspired by God for His own purposes.

It states that God formed Eve from Adam...
the word FORMED in Hebrew is actually the word BUILT.
God built Eve.
Like a temple would be built...Eve is a temple.
Women are a temple. This is why more is expected from them in every sense.
A temple is to be honored, respected and loved.

So much could be gleaned from this story.

BTW, I do believe that there was a first man and woman and God created them.
But think of how perfect that story is...how many questions it answers...how it explains the nature of man.
It's incredible.
As is the entire bible.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe people are confused about their faith because they think God immediately abandons people for committing sin. No loving father turns away from his children, but corrects them.

Yes, this could be.
Good idea.

Or maybe they think that because THEY abandon God when sinning,
God also abandons them?

Maybe we make God to be too human.
We don't understand that we're His CREATURES and He loves what He made.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I suppose what I would like most is for him to reveal himself to me as he did to Moses. I want him to be the God that he days he is and I want to speak to him and have speak back.

Moses own desire, inspired by God, was that all of God's people would have a spiritual relationship with God, not just a textbook, faraway relationship with God.

25Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him, and He took some of the Spirit that was on Moses and placed that Spirit on the seventy elders. As the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied—but they never did so again.

26Two men, however, had remained in the camp—one named Eldad and the other Medad—and the Spirit rested on them. They were among those listed, but they had not gone out to the tent, and they prophesied in the camp. 27A young man ran and reported to Moses, “Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.”

28Joshua son of Nun, the attendant to Moses since youth, spoke up and said, “Moses, my lord, stop them!”

29But Moses replied, “Are you jealous on my account? I wish that all the LORD’s people were prophets and that the LORD would place His Spirit on them!” Numbers 11:25-29

This was no accident. Moses was himself prophesying about the day God would indeed give the Spirit to ALL of his people and give them the special kind of relationship that he had with God. This was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost. But you and I dwell in the time of a church that has denied and suppressed this gift Christ died to give his people (John 10:10). Hardly anyone knows about it, and most of those who do deny it. Very few believe and lay hold of God's promise of power and spiritual abundance. It belongs to everyone who belongs to Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But think of how perfect that story is...how many questions it answers...how it explains the nature of man.

And I believe that's the main takeaway from the Eden story. All of us are born naked and unclothed, unprepared to resist the devil and the flesh when the commandment comes.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Or maybe they think that because THEY abandon God when sinning,
God also abandons them?

Only the sin of willful and defiant unbelief will cause God to eventually abandon a person.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I dont believe that gay people or atheists deserve eternal punishment.

Look at what they have done to this country.

It's not as innocent as you think.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Adam could not defy God by performing any action that contradicted what God already knew about Adam's future.

The problem with this line of thinking is it's impossible for Adam's choice to somehow be in defiance of what God had already saw him choose. God's foreknowledge will always line up exactly with what God saw from eternity Adam would chose to do. Regardless of what choice Adam made, God had already seen it and, therefore, it's impossible for Adam to have rebelled against or contradict what God already saw him do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you are all knowing, and you know someone's future, then you know every choice they are ever going to make in their life. Because you are all knowing, you can't be wrong, so the person cannot make a choice that contradicts what you already know is going to happen in the future.

Correct. But He's always right because he's already seen what choices you're going to make, not because he's 100% accurate in predicting what hasn't happened yet. He dwells in eternity past, present, and future. He's already seen what from your perspective you have yet to do. And so it's impossible to contradict or rebel against his foreknowledge, because his foreknowledge is him having actually already seen what you're going to choose, not predicting what you're going to choose. For lack of a better description, and one that fits our limited understanding of eternity, his foreknowledge 'changes' in that it is always one step ahead of the choices we have yet to make, and is, therefore, always in line with what we actually do no matter what we choose.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I love the story of Adam and Eve.
I don't even take it literally....it was inspired by God for His own purposes.

Paul says Adam was a pattern of the one to come (Christ), so I consider it a literal story.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It states that God formed Eve from Adam...
the word FORMED in Hebrew is actually the word BUILT.
God built Eve.
Like a temple would be built...Eve is a temple.
Women are a temple. This is why more is expected from them in every sense.
A temple is to be honored, respected and loved.

But more importantly, in regard to spiritual matters, a temple is to be kept clean and in order in honor of the God who dwells in it.

Eve is a picture of the church, the temple and dwelling place of the living God.

But anyway, that's interesting 'formed' means 'built'. Very fitting considering what Eve represents.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He also knows everything that is GOING to happen....
but God doesn't predestine what is going to happen.

He only predestines things by placing various things in the rat maze of this existence that he knows will cause the response he is soliciting.

Just off the top of my head, one example is the persecution of the Christians in Jerusalem that caused the Christians and the gospel to be dispersed to the ends of the earth. He determined that will happen and he created the circumstances in which they would choose to do that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Riven

The story itself:

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Yes, this could be.
Good idea.

Or maybe they think that because THEY abandon God when sinning,
God also abandons them?

Maybe we make God to be too human.
We don't understand that we're His CREATURES and He loves what He made.

You nailed it. Many so called Bible scholars view Jesus as so very human, they lose sight of his rightful respect as God himself.
How did Jesus correct sinners about how we should live? When we follow his instruction

Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching Eph.4:14

 

[journeymanisnothing]

That post was made out of anger. So, I take responsibility for it, but it wasn't my honest thoughts. I don't know how I want God to be. I suppose what I would like most is for him to reveal himself to me as he did to Moses. I want him to be the God that he days he is and I want to speak to him and have speak back.

But Riven, Jesus is the God who spoke to Moses. When Christ returns, all heaven and earth with be enveloped in the fire of his presence. People who aren't prepared to meet him will be consumed. And people get prepared by following his example of love toward even those who don't like us.

Of course I saw it and I recognize that he was innocent and didn't deserve what happened to him. I would never say otherwise.

Right. So we're not surprised by hatred of God being poured out on Gods' other children.

Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you Jn.15:20

I dont believe that gay people or atheists deserve eternal punishment. I've seen some posters who seem to have take pleasure in the fact that the heathens will burn! I think that's wrong. I can understand wanting murderers and rapists to get what's coming to them. But otherwise good people? No. That's too much for me.

Personally, I don't believe in never ending torment. I think rejoicing in the damnation of anyone is wrong,

For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. Eze.18:32

Jesus will judge all at some point.

 

[hawkman]

I suppose what I would like most is for him to reveal himself to me as he did to Moses.

And if God did reveal Himself to you like this and gave you a mission like the one Moses had , would you be ready ?

I want him to be the God that he days he is and I want to speak to him and have speak back.

I had a dream with a narrator (God as I understood later) . I was standing in a doorway and told I was looking in a hospital room , I did not look like a hospital room and I said this is not a hospital room . The narrator (God) said yes it is and I said oh whatever this is only a dream . I ended up in that very same hospital room @6 months later .

 

[Riven]

And if God did reveal Himself to you like this and gave you a mission like the one Moses had , would you be ready ?

I doubt it.

I had a dream with a narrator (God as I understood later) . I was standing in a doorway and told I was looking in a hospital room , I did not look like a hospital room and I said this is not a hospital room . The narrator (God) said yes it is and I said oh whatever this is only a dream . I ended up in that very same hospital room @6 months later .

Hmm... I've had similar dreams. They are rare, but sometimes there is this narrator. It's a male voice, kind of like an echo. Disembodied perhaps? I am unsure.

 

[hawkman]

I doubt it.

And Moses had doubts too . We are human after all .

11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?

12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.

If God comes to us with a mission that alone should let us know that with God's help we can accomplish the mission .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I love the story of Adam and Eve.
I don't even take it literally....it was inspired by God for His own purposes.

It states that God formed Eve from Adam...
the word FORMED in Hebrew is actually the word BUILT.
God built Eve.
Like a temple would be built...Eve is a temple.
Women are a temple. This is why more is expected from them in every sense.
A temple is to be honored, respected and loved.

So much could be gleaned from this story.

BTW, I do believe that there was a first man and woman and God created them.
But think of how perfect that story is...how many questions it answers...how it explains the nature of man.
It's incredible.
As is the entire bible.

Hi Wondering, if you believer there was a first man and a first woman. why not believe they were named Adam and Eve? Isn’t it easier?

 

[Riven]

And Moses had doubts too . We are human after all .

11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?

12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.

If God comes to us with a mission that alone should let us know that with God's help we can accomplish the mission .

Yeah. I'm done focusing on the doubts. I'm too leave then all in God's hands and focus on my life. I have to trust that God will understand. No more booze, no more accusing God of this and that. If God were to give me a mission, I want to be ready.