KEEPING THE FAITH

[Dorothy Mae]

Only in that I could predict the outcome.

Ah, so your foreknowledge didn’t affect the rock.

No, I'm not. I'm trying to understand his cognitive abilities. I am not comfortable only observing the surface of the ocean. I want to know what's below the surface.

Good motive. It’s called knowing God and it has some prerequisites just like other relationships with the wise.

Yes, but in matters of conveying important infornation, one doesn't need a relationship, they need accurate instruction.

It depends. If we want to understand why a Being acted as they did, this can require relationship first. It’s isn’t merely information, it’s understanding.

And quickly kicked him out for eating an apple.

No, that’s leaving out the reason. You know the reason but changed it so as to accuse.

Maybe change is the better word.

Like you just did in the Fall story?

If this is the case, it's a miracle when taken at face value.

Why face value? What more do you require?

But what's more likely? That the laws of the universe were temporarily suspended in your favor, and in hers, or that you were under a misapprehension and she was capable of walking the whole time?

Do think I don’t know a lame woman when I see one? Really? Is this another example of “changing” the story?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, I've thought of this before I cannot understand how one could have witnessed Jesus walking on water for instance, and not believe. That would seal the deal for me.

Believing would have been expensive.

As for big brother watching, I find it deeply disturbing indeed. The idea that even in our most private moments, we are never not under God's supervision. It's sort of like The Truman Show. Great movie, by the way.

I find it greatly comforting.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, I agree. It does explain the origins of the universe. Frankly, Genesis 1:1 is fantastic. It explains everything in one verse. The inquisitive mind, or perhaps a cynical one, may ask, who then created God? But in order for the universe to exist, there must be an eternal being that exists outside of it.

The only other alternative is that the universe itself is eternal. Many atheists believe this despite it being contradicted by the cosmological evidence which shows that the universe is expanding at a faster and faster rate. It had a beginning.

You want to hear a really cool quote from God. He told a woman, “tell the physicists that I am intrinsic energy, but you can call me Father.”

 

[Riven]

Ah, so your foreknowledge didn’t affect the rock.

No, because it's a rock. It doesn't have free will.

No, that’s leaving out the reason. You know the reason but changed it so as to accuse.

No, I didn't. That's what happened.

Why face value? What more do you require?

Evidence that the person was healed by supernatural processes. I'm not going to take it at face value when I can turn on the television every Sunday and see televangelists performing the exact same "miracles".

Do think I don’t know a lame woman when I see one? Really? Is this another example of “changing” the story?

No, I think you were under a misapprehension. Suppose it actually was a miracle. Why does God not heal every crippled person that prays for healing? If this is how things worked, we wouldn't need doctors.

 

[Hidden In Him]

But this depends on how much God knows. If God knows all of the decisions that Pharoh will make from the beginning of his life til the end, then I would argue that he never had the ability to choose. He was always going to say no because his future was already written.

Not sure I'd be able to catch up on this thread, but so you know, the only thing that God specifically dictated in Pharaoh's life were his responses when he refused to let the Israelites go, and that was because the Lord intended to use the entire incident as a prophetic foreshadowing of events that would take place in the end-times.

Pharaoh retained full freedom of will in the rest of his decisions, and was never "destined" for Heaven or Hell any more than Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, or any of the other powerful leaders of the ancient world were, despite what some Predestinationists falsely presume.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No, because it's a rock. It doesn't have free will.

How does that change things? I know how people close to
me will behave under certain conditions. I predicted to my visiting sister what my in-laws would say and it was so.

No, I didn't. That's what happened.

No, they weren’t kicked out for eating an apple. That is incorrect and doesn’t match the account. If a man tripped on a branch, fell down a hill, rolled into a river and drowned, it’s changed the story to day he died cause he tripped on a twig.

Evidence that the person was healed by supernatural processes. I'm not going to take it at face value when I can turn on the television every Sunday and see televangelists performing the exact same "miracles".

I’m not one of them. Have I asked for money? But come to think of it…

No, I think you were under a misapprehension.

You refuse to believe my account that costs you nothing. Can you see why they didn’t believe Jesus even though he walked in water?

Suppose it actually was a miracle. Why does God not heal every crippled person that prays for healing?

That has a longer answer.

If this is how things worked, we wouldn't need doctors.

Jesus provided food too but it didn’t mean farmers weren’t necessary.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What are the circumstances?

The circumstances you are bound to by the will of God, not yours, concern where and when you were born into the world, what parents you have, how much money they make, how much money you make and are capable of making, what biological dispositions you have to contend with, and so on.

All these circumstances are constraints, but constraints within which you are free to exercise your free will, to the extent those circumstances, set by God, allow you to do that. For example, maybe your part of the rat maze that you have been constrained to in life gives you the freedom to go down to the Gulf of Mexico and have a swim whenever you want (I used to live in the freedom of those circumstances, lol). Or, maybe you or your parents make enough money so you can go to France and stroll it's beaches. The point is you have free will to do whatever it is that your circumstances allow you to operate freely in. In this way God's will and sovereignty is preserved, despite your freedom to exercise your free will in the ways that you are able to exercise that free will.

Let's apply this truth about free will to the gospel. When God calls a person through the testimony of the Holy Spirit to receive the gospel of Christ and be saved, he opens up that area of choice to a person where they did not have that freedom to choose before. By grace, God sets a person free of the blindness of sin and death long enough to hear, believe, and receive the message given by the Spirit of God about God's forgiveness offered to us in Christ. It is in that scope of time and circumstance that a person can exercise the free will to believe the gospel and be saved, or reject it and be lost.

 

[Riven]

Not sure I'd be able to catch up on this thread, but so you know, the only thing that God specifically dictated in Pharaoh's life were his responses when he refused to let the Israelites go, and that was because the Lord intended to use the entire incident as a prophetic foreshadowing of events that would take place in the end-times.

Pharaoh retained full freedom of will in the rest of his decisions, and was never "destined" for Heaven or Hell any more than Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, or any of the other powerful leaders of the ancient world were, despite what some Predestinationists falsely presume.

Well, is God all knowing? If he is, then he already knows whether or not we will go to heaven or hell. Unless there is a way for us to make choices that contradict God's knowledge about our lives, then I don't see how one has free will.

 

[Riven]

How does that change things? I know how people close to
me will behave under certain conditions. I predicted to my visiting sister what my in-laws would say and it was so.

Because you making an accurate prediction is not the same as being all knowing. God does not make predictions. He knows what is, what was, and what will be. Do you disagree?

No, they weren’t kicked out for eating an apple. That is incorrect and doesn’t match the account. If a man tripped on a branch, fell down a hill, rolled into a river and drowned, it’s changed the story to day he died cause he tripped on a twig.

They were kicked out because they disobeyed God by eating the apple.

I’m not one of them. Have I asked for money? But come to think of it…

Lol.

You refuse to believe my account that costs you nothing. Can you see why they didn’t believe Jesus even though he walked in water?

I believe that you believe it. But that doesn't make it true.

That has a longer answer.

Or a rather short one.

Jesus provided food too but it didn’t mean farmers weren’t necessary.

Hmm... fair enough.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Well, is God all knowing? If he is, then he already knows whether or not we will go to heaven or hell. Unless there is a way for us to make choices that contradict God's knowledge about our lives, then I don't see how one has free will.

To say He knows the future is not the same thing as saying He determines it, at least not where men's individual salvations are concerned.

 

[Riven]

To say He knows the future is not the same thing as saying He determines it, at least not where men's individual salvations are concerned.

How can it not be determined if it's known? Can we make decisions that He cannot forsee?

 

[Hidden In Him]

How can it not be determined if it's known? Can we make decisions that He cannot forsee?

Dude, I know the future quite often, and a lot of it is not in my control, Lol.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We get new members that state they can't keep the faith
and/or are in and out of Christianity.

What do they mean exactly?
How does a person keep the faith?
How is one in and out of Christianity?
Are they lost, saved, lost, saved, etc?

To keep the discussion in the context of the OP, IMO most people who don't keep the faith fail because they did not respond to the testimony of the Holy Spirt, but rather to the testimony of men. 1 John 5:9-10, John 15:26-27.

Genuine, lasting faith comes from a revelation of the truth delivered by the Holy Spirit, not just the testimony of men, alone. It's the difference between being born of water only, and being born of water and Spirit. Among those who fail, most of them only have the water part down. They seem to make up the bulk of those who fail.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How can it not be determined if it's known?

Because I know ahead of time a mouse will come out of his hole and eat a piece of cheese the mouse has no choice but to do that? Really?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Because you making an accurate prediction is not the same as being all knowing.

Why not? What’s the difference? Knowledge is knowledge.

God does not make predictions. He knows what is, what was, and what will be. Do you disagree?

Let’s say He makes predictions. Does that solve the matters? His predictions come through is the difference.

They were kicked out because they disobeyed God by eating the apple.

That’s distorting the events.

Lol.


I believe that you believe it. But that doesn't make it true.

I believe you don’t believe it. That doesn’t make it false.

Or a rather short one.

No I know some of the answers and it’s rather long. One I already gave you.

Hmm... fair enough.

I warned you He is COMPLEX.

 

[Riven]

Because I know ahead of time a mouse will come out of his hole and eat a piece of cheese the mouse has no choice but to do that? Really?

No. You're really not understanding my argument. Like, at all.

Dude, I know the future quite often, and a lot of it is not in my control, Lol.

My point exactly. ;)

Why not? What’s the difference? Knowledge is knowledge.

Because one is a good guess and the other doesn't involve guessing.

Let’s say He makes predictions. Does that solve the matters? His predictions come through is the difference.

No. Because then he isn't all knowing anymore and is instead, God: Master of Predictions.

That’s distorting the events.

It is not!

I believe you don’t believe it. That doesn’t make it false.

True.

I warned you He is COMPLEX.

Obviously. Hence why I'm asking questions and bouncing ideas off of you all. That, and it's fun. I like to have fun.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No. You're really not understanding my argument. Like, at all.

Okay. I'll keep reading along and hopefully I'll get a better grasp on what you're driving at.

 

[Milk-Drops]

*strums guitar in tight jeans and leather jacket*

 

[Riven]

Okay. I'll keep reading along and hopefully I'll get a better grasp on what you're driving at.

I didn't mean that in a disparaging way. Let me put it this way. You have a choice between a hotdog and a hamburger for lunch. If God knows that you will choose the hamburger, is there any way for you to choose the hotdog instead? In other words, can you make a choice that contradicts God's knowledge about your future?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In other words, can you make a choice that contradicts God's knowledge about your future?

No, you can not make a choice that contradicts what God already knows you will make because he has already seen the choice you will make from outside of time. But you're looking at it like he knows what choice you will make in a predictive before it happens kind of way.