KEEPING THE FAITH

[Jethro Bodine]

If God knows that you will choose the hamburger, is there any way for you to choose the hotdog instead?

No, because God already saw you choose the hamburger. He doesn't cognitively know in a predictive way that you'll choose the hamburger. He saw you choose the hamburger from outside of time, just as he saw Jesus make the decision to let himself be nailed to the cross, thus becoming 'the lamb slain before the foundation of the world'.

 

[Riven]

No, you can not make a choice that contradicts what God already knows you will make because he has already seen the choice you will make from outside of time.

So, if you can't choose the hotdog over the hamburger, then how do you still have free will?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, if you can't choose the hotdog over the hamburger, then how do you still have free will?

You CAN choose the hotdog over the hamburger. But God can see from outside the constraints of time that you freely chose the hamburger, even though in the constraints of time you haven't done that yet.

It's the difference between God simply knowing what choices you'll make and him already seeing what choices you will make.

 

[Riven]

You CAN choose the hotdog over the hamburger. But God can see from outside the constraints of time that you freely chose the hamburger, even though in the constraints of time you haven't done that yet.

It's the difference between God simply knowing what choices you'll make and him already seeing what choices you will make.

But in order to know the future, he has to know which item I will choose in advance. Therefore, I'm not really choosing at all. I'm more just along for the ride.

If there is a difference between God seeing and knowing, it would imply that it's possible for God to be wrong. I'm the case of him being wrong or nor knowing the future, free will makes sense.

Now, you could be right about God existing outside of time and so the rules that we live by don't apply. But in that case, there's nothing to talk about.

 

[GodsGrace]

If God knows the future, I don't see how we can have free will. If all of the choices that we make in life are already set in stone and unchangeable, then the are no choices to be made. If there are no choices to be made, then how can we be eternally punished for making the wrong choice?

How does God knowing the future cause anything to happen?
It's one thing to know something will happen,
and it's another thing to CAUSE something to happen.
I KNOW a 14 month old baby will fall if he tries to go down the stairs...
Did I CAUSE him to fall ?

This is something very important you have to come to grips with.
IF God caused everything to happen, then you're right...He would be unjust in punishing us for doing what He caused us to do. You hit on this, just think about it a little more.
It is certainly our choice whether or not we want to choose as God would have us to...
He forces no one.

But this depends on how much God knows. If God knows all of the decisions that Pharoh will make from the beginning of his life til the end, then I would argue that he never had the ability to choose. He was always going to say no because his future was already written.

God knows everything that will happen.
But if God CAUSED Pharaoh to say no...
what would be the reason to kill the firstborn?
There would be none!

But if Adams future was already known to God, how could Adam make a choice?

Could you please explain how knowing something will happen, causes it to happen.

Because God knew Adam would fail,
how does that make God RESPONSIBLE for Adam failing?
God gave him the opportunity,
Adam failed -
God knew he would.
That's it.

The same way he created the universe? Do you think he couldn't have written the book himself?

No I don't. And I explained why. I'll stick to that.
Revelation had to be gradual.

Well this is why I think having holy books written by human beings is a bad idea. As you know, this is how Islam began. The Qur'an is another book written by men that claims to be the divine word of God, and also claims to be the final revelation from God. Which I find to be most insidious.

We know the Qu'ran was written by a man. There's no mystery here.
The OT and NT were written by many different persons, throughout almost 2,000 years and they all agreed with each other. It has retained its reliability through all this time, about 4,000 years.
Did you ever read of all the prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
It's pretty incredible.

Yes, it is interesting because I have no trouble believing in God. The universe had a beginning, this is a scientific fact. Therefore, it is logical to assume that something existed before the universe that set it into motion.

But the bible takes this relatively simple and straight forward premise makes it extremely convoluted. It quickly becomes a Twlight Zone episode where now have to believe in talking snakes, magical fruit, a man walking on water, a man surviving inside the belly of a whale for three days, etc. It's a bit much.

Not every Christian believes the Garden story is literal.
The fruit is not magical, but only represents the knowledge of evil.
Men have been found alive in the bellies of big fish.
If Jesus could resurrect, He could walk on water.
It's not necessary to believe every little thing you read in the OT.
This should not affect your faith.
God is real, that's all we need to know.

I don't know why Jesus was sent or even if he was sent. We have to make certain assumptions because all we have to go on is what's written in the bible.

This is kind of something you have to figure out.
This IS important to know.
Was Jesus sent?
Who is He?
Why was He sent?
This is not really something that can be dismissed.
It's pivotal to our faith. (Christianity).

I think a better question would be, why do miracles not happen today, or why are they far less common than they were thousands of years ago? This excludes televangelists performing miracles every Sunday. Don't get cheeky with me. Lol.

I don't depend on televangelists for anything.
I like facts.

Here is a fact.
There's a beautiful sanctuary in the south of France: Lourdes.
I'm sure you know about it.
Thousands of miracles have been recorded there.

It's a Catholic sanctuary and the CC doesn't take miracles lightly like some televangelists do.
They're very careful before pronouncing something a miracle.
They checked out some "miracles" that were reported and that seemed to be maybe real.
It was found that 700 (at last count that I know of) were actual, real miracles where the person had no hope of getting better or was dying, etc.

Miracles still happen...I just don't think they happen very often.
Some here will tell you that being saved is a miracle, but I know that's not what you mean.

 

[GodsGrace]

They like so many of us when we first start out, struggle to remain in Christ.


What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The number one thing I would encourage anyone who struggles to remain in Christ is Heaven is overjoyed when you return to Him... so dont give up!




JLB

Amen to that.
If we give up, we give the glory to the evil one.
Also, life is so much more pleasant when we serve God.
Maybe it takes some time to realize this, but eventually we do.
So to those that are struggling, even with questions about Christianity...
don't give up!

 

[GodsGrace]

To keep the discussion in the context of the OP, IMO most people who don't keep the faith fail because they did not respond to the testimony of the Holy Spirt, but rather to the testimony of men. 1 John 5:9-10, John 15:26-27.

Genuine, lasting faith comes from a revelation of the truth delivered by the Holy Spirit, not just the testimony of men, alone. It's the difference between being born of water only, and being born of water and Spirit. Among those who fail, most of them only have the water part down. They seem to make up the bulk of those who fail.

Interesting.
I know of persons that come to the faith through intellect and not by the Spirit.
They seem to be well planted in what they believe.
Maybe at some point, the Spirit kicks in?
What about the other way around...
a person that SEEMS to have the Holy Spirit indwelling could also leave the faith.
Paul warns about this.

Maybe it's like Luke 8:13...
life's troubles come along before they were firmly planted in the faith.

 

[hawkman]

So, if you can't choose the hotdog over the hamburger, then how do you still have free will?

Once I think me and my wife's free will was altered by God .
I had a short disturbing dream one night . The dream was this . My wife and I were being chased around our car by a man with a gun , there was no where to hide and the dream ended with us kneeling on the ground with the gunman ready to shoot us beside our car . I woke up and sat straight up in the bed in a cold sweat . I thought , this is not good at all . The year before I had a dream that I did live out in real time , now after that happens to you your dreams become serious for you , just saying .
Once a year my wife and I visit a dental school to get our teeth cleaned and help the students have some practical training and we save a little coin too . On the morning of our appointment at the school we got up in plenty of time to be in our car at a certain time . But no matter what we did that morning we could not get ready and get out the door , it was so strange because if we need to be out the door at certain time we are ! So we left about 30 minutes later than we thought we should. About half way into our drive of and hour and a half we come upon an intersection with many police and cars lined up at a stop sign , one car had a bullet hole in it's drivers side window . We saw the feet of people sitting on the ground next to the cars at the stop sign .
At this time my mind went back to my dream , I had told my wife of my dream too . It was a somber trip the rest of the way to the dental school . My wife's blood pressure was too high so they would not clean her teeth . They did clean my teeth and I had a first year student and that means it was a very slow process and more time than usual . At @ noon the students have to stop no matter if they are done or not with the patient .
So we were later than normal going back home . We took the same route going home and before we got even close to the intersection where the shooting took place we were directed by a road crew to a different route and we got lost and had to refer to road maps and took about an hour extra getting home . So did God keep us from getting out the door than morning at our decided time ? I believe so . Later we found out what happened at the intersection .
https://www.wbrc.com/story/31760126/man-dead-after-shootout-police-chase-in-blount-co/

 

[Riven]

How does God knowing the future cause anything to happen?
It's one thing to know something will happen,
and it's another thing to CAUSE something to happen.
I KNOW a 14 month old baby will fall if he tries to go down the stairs...
Did I CAUSE him to fall ?

No, you are assuming that that's what will happen in that scenario based on common sense, NOT because you are all knowing. Do you see the difference?

This is something very important you have to come to grips with.
IF God caused everything to happen, then you're right...He would be unjust in punishing us for doing what He caused us to do. You hit on this, just think about it a little more.
It is certainly our choice whether or not we want to choose as God would have us to...
He forces no one.

That's certainly true if we have free will.

God knows everything that will happen.
But if God CAUSED Pharaoh to say no...
what would be the reason to kill the firstborn?
There would be none!

Good question. I don't know.

Could you please explain how knowing something will happen, causes it to happen.

If you are all knowing, and you know someone's future, then you know every choice they are ever going to make in their life. Because you are all knowing, you can't be wrong, so the person cannot make a choice that contradicts what you already know is going to happen in the future.

Because God knew Adam would fail,
how does that make God RESPONSIBLE for Adam failing?
God gave him the opportunity,
Adam failed -
God knew he would.
That's it.

Because if he knew Adam would fail, it means Adam never could have not failed because God is all knowing. Adam could not defy God by performing any action that contradicted what God already knew about Adam's future.

No I don't. And I explained why. I'll stick to that.
Revelation had to be gradual.

Why did it have to be gradual? Was the sudden appearance to Moses gradual? Was Jesus and the crucifixion gradual?

Did you ever read of all the prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
It's pretty incredible.

No, I haven't.

Not every Christian believes the Garden story is literal.
The fruit is not magical, but only represents the knowledge of evil.

Why do you think God wanted to keep the knowledge of evil from Adam & Eve?

Men have been found alive in the bellies of big fish.

After three days?

If Jesus could resurrect, He could walk on water.

I agree.

This is kind of something you have to figure out.
This IS important to know.
Was Jesus sent?
Who is He?
Why was He sent?
This is not really something that can be dismissed.
It's pivotal to our faith. (Christianity).

I know and I agree.

I don't depend on televangelists for anything.
I like facts.

I figured as much.

Here is a fact.
There's a beautiful sanctuary in the south of France: Lourdes.
I'm sure you know about it.
Thousands of miracles have been recorded there.

It's a Catholic sanctuary and the CC doesn't take miracles lightly like some televangelists do.
They're very careful before pronouncing something a miracle.
They checked out some "miracles" that were reported and that seemed to be maybe real.
It was found that 700 (at last count that I know of) were actual, real miracles where the person had no hope of getting better or was dying, etc.

Miracles still happen...I just don't think they happen very often.
Some here will tell you that being saved is a miracle, but I know that's not what you mean.

Well, the Catholic church has a patchy history with investigations. I'm very reluctant to believe anything they say. More over, if this is indeed true, the Catholic church has missed out on a huge payday from James Randi.

One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know of persons that come to the faith through intellect and not by the Spirit.
They seem to be well planted in what they believe.
Maybe at some point, the Spirit kicks in?

I think so.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

We get new members that state they can't keep the faith
and/or are in and out of Christianity.

What do they mean exactly?
How does a person keep the faith?
How is one in and out of Christianity?
Are they lost, saved, lost, saved, etc?

I put this in The Lounge so it could be a more relaxing conversation
and verses don't necessarily have to be used, however treat it as you like.

I believe people are confused about their faith because they think God immediately abandons people for committing sin. No loving father turns away from his children, but corrects them.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Because one is a good guess and the other doesn't involve guessing.

But that lies solely in the limits of the one who guesses/knows. If we are wise enough, we KNOW how others will react. To use the word “guess”is inaccurate. The point is the One knowing does not affect the free will of the one choosing.

No. Because then he isn't all knowing anymore and is instead, God: Master of Predictions.

Same. The ability of the one who knows doesn’t affect the one who chooses.

It is not!

Yes it is. Adam and Eve were evicted because they grasped what they thought was the chance to be like God. It’s called rebellion and it opened the door to man being evil. It would be worse if they had stayed. They weren’t evicted because they (merely) ate an apple.

True.


Obviously. Hence why I'm asking questions and bouncing ideas off of you all. That, and it's fun. I like to have fun.

I’m enjoying it as well.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

It means that some of us are a different breed. We look at the world and see the disaster that it is and ask ourselves, what the hell kind of a god let's things continue on this way? Children getting cancer before they even have a chance to live, rape, murder, child molestation, genocide. You name it.

With great power comes great responsibility and he's not fulfilling his end of the bargain. We exist here and we suffer day in and day out. For what? What's it for? Why is this game even being played? What's the point? Faith? Really? That's it? Give me a break.

I like you, Wondering. And I feel like I can give you my honest thoughts. These are it. If this God loves us, he would put an end to the suffering. He would reveal himself and let us know he cares. But he doesn't. Why? I just don't understand.

The bible itself. How can any thinking person demand evidence for extraordinary claims made by individuals living today, but require no evidence for supposed miracles that took place thousands of years ago? You don't even know who wrote these books. Anonymous writers that could have written anything they wanted and you take it at face value? Why? Why don't you take the Quaran at face value?

It's the human condition and these questions that result in one going in and out of Christianity. People are looming for hope because they know that one day they're going to die. But they're also looking for something that makes sense.

Maybe they feel like there's something to Jesus that feels real, that feels like thee truth. But they just can't square with the rest of it. You'd have to ask them. Or ask me, if you like. I'll do my best.

Hello Riven.
Reading your post, I wonder how you think God should be?
How can anyone who believes in Jesus not see the injustices that happened to him?
And more than that, how could God himself allow liars conspiring to murder him to carry out their evil? Why didn't the King of kings and Lord of lords just fry those sinners?
I never committed any biggies, like murder, rape, etc, but I'm glad God gave me time to repent of sins I'm ashamed I committed or thought about.
I think believers who want God to serve justice don't remember the days when they were seasoned firewood.
Can we walk in unity on this?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If you are all knowing, and you know someone's future, then you know every choice they are ever going to make in their life. Because you are all knowing, you can't be wrong, so the person cannot make a choice that contradicts what you already know is going to happen in the future.


Because if he knew Adam would fail, it means Adam never could have not failed because God is all knowing. Adam could not defy God by performing any action that contradicted what God already knew about Adam's future.

I’m thinking about what’s wrong with that statement. I think you’ve made a leap from “because Subject knows due to superior intellectual capacity” to CANNOT be wrong not because of superior intellectual ability but something else (infallibility) therefore knowing is forcing. Intellectual superiority IS sufficient to explain why God knows the future. You are adding on something that changes the reason why He knows. He is of vastly superior intellect and therefore knows. His knowing isn’t like our knowing because our intellect fails to connect the dots or is missing information. He misses no information and never has “a blond moment.”

You says you want to understand God’s cognitive abilities. Do you understand the cognitive abilities of those advancing in PhD physics? Those are closer to your level.

 

[Riven]

Yes it is. Adam and Eve were evicted because they grasped what they thought was the chance to be like God. It’s called rebellion and it opened the door to man being evil. It would be worse if they had stayed. They weren’t evicted because they (merely) ate an apple.

Rebellion. So, is what I'm doing now a form of rebellion? If Adam and Eve had not eaten from the tree, they would have remained child like forever with no understanding of good and evil. Is that what God wants? For us to be like children?

I’m enjoying it as well.

I'm glad.

 

[Riven]

Hello Riven.
Reading your post, I wonder how you think God should be?

That post was made out of anger. So, I take responsibility for it, but it wasn't my honest thoughts. I don't know how I want God to be. I suppose what I would like most is for him to reveal himself to me as he did to Moses. I want him to be the God that he days he is and I want to speak to him and have speak back.

How can anyone who believes in Jesus not see the injustices that happened to him?

Of course I saw it and I recognize that he was innocent and didn't deserve what happened to him. I would never say otherwise.

And more than that, how could God himself allow liars conspiring to murder him to carry out their evil? Why didn't the King of kings and Lord of lords just fry those sinners?
I never committed any biggies, like murder, rape, etc, but I'm glad God gave me time to repent of sins I'm ashamed I committed or thought about.
I think believers who want God to serve justice don't remember the days when they were seasoned firewood.
Can we walk in unity on this?

I dont believe that gay people or atheists deserve eternal punishment. I've seen some posters who seem to take pleasure in the fact that the heathens will burn! I think that's wrong. I can understand wanting murderers and rapists to get what's coming to them. But otherwise good people? No. That's too much for me.

 

[Riven]

I’m thinking about what’s wrong with that statement. I think you’ve made a leap from “because Subject knows due to superior intellectual capacity” to CANNOT be wrong not because of superior intellectual ability but something else (infallibility) therefore knowing is forcing. Intellectual superiority IS sufficient to explain why God knows the future. You are adding on something that changes the reason why He knows. He is of vastly superior intellect and therefore knows. His knowing isn’t like our knowing because our intellect fails to connect the dots or is missing information. He misses no information and never has “a blond moment.”

The infallibility, yes. He can't be wrong about the infornation that he has.

You says you want to understand God’s cognitive abilities. Do you understand the cognitive abilities of those advancing in PhD physics? Those are closer to your level.

No, I don't. I never went to college. Lol.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Rebellion. So, is what I'm doing now a form of rebellion? If Adam and Eve had not eaten from the tree, they would have remained child like forever with no understanding of good and evil. Is that what God wants? For us to be like children?


I'm glad.

They weren’t like children. They were adults. What they were like we don’t know. But no, that wasn’t His purpose. His purpose was that they moral good and evil from choosing good. We learn more from choosing right than choosing wrong.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The infallibility, yes. He can't be wrong about the infornation that he has.

Because he is too intelligent, not for any other reason. You predict that The rock falls from your hand because of your intelligence.

No, I don't. I never went to college. Lol.

We understand the mental workings of other people to some degree because we too are people. God is way above our ability. He is beyond understanding by us being curious or seeking.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If Adam and Eve had not eaten from the tree, they would have remained child like forever with no understanding of good and evil. Is that what God wants? For us to be like children?

Adam and Eve serve as the picture of what happens to each and every one of us. We are like Adam and Eve, created unclothed and unprepared to deal with the temptations of the devil and the flesh. The commandment, when it comes, proves that to us. And that is God's intention. He wants his creation to understand their need to be clothed with Christ, prepared to resist the corrupt desires of the flesh and the devil who instigates obedience to those corrupt desires. No mortal is born that way (except John the Baptist). Like Adam and Eve we are born alive apart from the law, but naked, and when the commandment comes we sin and die and become aware of our nakedness.

9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10So I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through the commandment put me to death.
Romans 7:9-11

Bottom line is, just understand Adam and Eve as a pattern of all of mankind, not some plan for a perfect race of people (had they not eaten the fruit) that went awry and which got replaced with another plan.