Law or Grace

[glorydaz]

Jesus says "If you love me, keep my commandments". Without being faithful to Jesus, there is no Salvation, period.

I hope you're perfect then, Shad, because you will answer to the judge otherwise.

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Oops, here's one I've witnessed your failure on keeping.

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Oops, do I hear you disagreeing with me? Where's the judge...we'd best get this trial under way?

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Do you still have two eyes, bud?

28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Do you still have two hands? You've never done anything wrong? :nag

30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Watch your words carefully, you'll answer for each one of them.

37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Do you turn the other cheek, give your cloak also, go the extra mile, give to all who want to borrow?

39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

If your salvation depends on your ability to follow Christ's commandments, Shad, you have my pity.

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[shad]

i wanted to clarify my position and glory - you and i do disagree here, but we can agree, we are no longer under the law and have the freedom Christ brought to us to live a life progressively manifesting and conforming to His image! Praise Him for releasing us from the bondage the law gave and freeing us through His death and resurrection!

What is your point? Are you saying that you can be saved without being faithful to Jesus?

 

[DarcyLu]

i wanted to clarify my position and glory - you and i do disagree here, but we can agree, we are no longer under the law and have the freedom Christ brought to us to live a life progressively manifesting and conforming to His image! Praise Him for releasing us from the bondage the law gave and freeing us through His death and resurrection!

What is your point? Are you saying that you can be saved without being faithful to Jesus?

LOL did you read the rest of my post shad, it was the entire point of it. in addition, i am saying we are no longer under the law, there are countless versus explaining just that.
being faithful to Jesus is abiding in Him, believing Him, taking upon us the nature of His name, allowing Him to work and be in us, conforming to His image.
faithfulness is what my entire post was about.

 

[glorydaz]

i wanted to clarify my position and glory - you and i do disagree here, but we can agree, we are no longer under the law and have the freedom Christ brought to us to live a life progressively manifesting and conforming to His image! Praise Him for releasing us from the bondage the law gave and freeing us through His death and resurrection!

Where do you see our being in disagreement?

Are you thinking I'm saying we're free to sin?
I've been accused of that before and it's untrue.

Isaiah speaks of the coming Holy Spirit who enlightens the believer.

Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment. And a man shall be as an hiding place from the wind, and a covert from the tempest; as rivers of water in a dry place, as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land. And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken.

We don't have liberty to sin...our liberty is being able to rest in the Lord Jesus and allow Him to work through us. We have ceased from our own work and allow His to be manifest through us. We are His body to do with as He will....when we strive, we go before Him and lose our rest.

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

This is how the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but the Holy Spirit producing His fruit of love through us.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[DarcyLu]

i wanted to clarify my position and glory - you and i do disagree here, but we can agree, we are no longer under the law and have the freedom Christ brought to us to live a life progressively manifesting and conforming to His image! Praise Him for releasing us from the bondage the law gave and freeing us through His death and resurrection!

Where do you see our being in disagreement?

Are you thinking I'm saying we're free to sin?
I've been accused of that before and it's untrue..

no, i do not see your position as we are free to sin. i tend to lean towards James when he says "faith w/out works is dead" and the work we are responsible for, the final goal, would be to conform to His image. if we are truly in faith we will show works of that and without it our faith is dead.

 

[Drew]

If we are in Christ, we should have works to back up our Faith. But it's not the works itself that saves us.

This is a false choice - kind of like the question: " Have you stopped beating your wife". In order to properly account for all that Paul writes, we simply have to embrace ulitmate salvation by good works. I continue to be astonished that people read this text:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

....and imagine that good works are not the measure by which ultimate salvation is achieved. Many in the reformed tradition continue to manufacture implausible theories to explain why, mysteriously, Paul here would describe salvation by works here in Romans 2, and yet not believe what he himself has written.

 

[Drew]

Glory already provided this verse and I will do so again:

Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified! The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort?

There is and always has been a danger of once being saved to revert back to living under the law in the form of legalism, either by manipulation and or coercion as you must do this or else.

But Paul is not talking about legalim here at all - he is talking about the Law of Moses and he is critiquing those who think that the Law of Moses - that is, being Jewish, justifies.

I am not saying that Paul does not have a critique of legalism. But the broader context here is clear - he is addressing the Law of Moses and its function as an ethnic charter which some Jews saw as excluding Gentiles from the family of God.

 

[Drew]

"The law" that Paul is talking about are the Jewish customs and ceremonies and traditions. It's a complete contradiction to say that Paul meant for us to NOT obey God's commands regarding SIN. Read the verses in context.

I completely agree with you shad about one thing you say here - as you point out by givin the context, this is about the Jew-Gentile divide. I know we disagree about the present status of the Law of Moses, but, yes, a proper look at the context shows that Paul is indeed concerned with the Jew-Gentile question.

I believe that Paul argues that this division is now gone, precisely because the Law of Moses has been retired. I suspect you do not see things the same way.

 

[Drew]

As we walk after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled IN us.

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Its interesting that you post this text since, as we discussed before, it clearly undercuts your position that works do not matter in respect to ultimate justification. What are the stated condtions for the righteousness of the Law to be fulfilled in the believer? that the believer walks after the Spirit, i.e. manifests the good works that the Spirit will generate. As Paul goes on to write in Romans 8:

....if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

There is a condition on getting "life" - walking in the way of the Spirit,

Israel followed after righteousness by keeping the law, but did not obtain. Keeping the law, therefore cannot bring righteousness.

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

But Paul is not denying salvation by good works - the very thing he affirms in Romans 2 - he is talking here about keeping the Law of Moses. Paul is critiquing a Jewish belief that those under the Law of Moses - are the only ones who are ultimately in God's family.

 

[glorydaz]

This allegory given by Paul shows the difference between the two covenants. One of law and one of grace. Here he gives us two women, two sons, two covenants, two mountains, and two cities.
They each are a picture of law under the Old Covenant, and grace under the New.

Sarah the freewoman represents grace. Hagar the bondwoman represents the law and bondage.

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

One Covenant was of earth the other of heaven. Those who are justified by faith alone inherit the heavenly one. Mt. Sinai is where the law was given to Israel, all the commandments were instituted to show how far man falls short of what God requires.... to show how Holy God is. The laws birth was given at Sinai and Israel could not follow it no matter how long or hard they tried. Those who put themselves under the law are true sons of Hagar, they are trying to obtain the blessing by their own hands.

24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Those who are justified by faith inherit the heavenly one. She is our mother of believers in type. The promise is of faith. Ishmael did not come from faith nor represent it. Ishmael represents what seemed like blessing, but in time would bring contention.

26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Paul uses this as an illustration of the flesh always in conflict with the Spirit. Paul explains the conflict of those who walk In faith are persecuted by those who try to live by law.

29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Notice what the law could not do. The law had a purpose and there are some things it cannot do. It cannot justify, it cannot change a heart of a sinner, it can only make one guilty, it can’t pardon or redeem or save. It was the weakness of the flesh that prevented it, so it can only bring conviction, guilt and curse. What it could not accomplish the Son of God did by condemning sin in the flesh and fulfilled it himself, because he alone could live the law perfectly.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[glorydaz]

i wanted to clarify my position and glory - you and i do disagree here, but we can agree, we are no longer under the law and have the freedom Christ brought to us to live a life progressively manifesting and conforming to His image! Praise Him for releasing us from the bondage the law gave and freeing us through His death and resurrection!

Where do you see our being in disagreement?

Are you thinking I'm saying we're free to sin?
I've been accused of that before and it's untrue..

no, i do not see your position as we are free to sin. i tend to lean towards James when he says "faith w/out works is dead" and the work we are responsible for, the final goal, would be to conform to His image. if we are truly in faith we will show works of that and without it our faith is dead.

Dead faith is no faith...devoid of the life-giving Spirit of God. Our work of God is to believe, amen?
As we present our bodies a living sacrifice we but do our reasonable service to the Lord.
When we see Christ's work being performed by our bodies, do we call them our works and rob Him of the glory? It's but our service to carry out His will...the glory is all His.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[glorydaz]

If we are in Christ, we should have works to back up our Faith. But it's not the works itself that saves us.

This is a false choice - kind of like the question: " Have you stopped beating your wife". In order to properly account for all that Paul writes, we simply have to embrace ulitmate salvation by good works. I continue to be astonished that people read this text:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

....and imagine that good works are not the measure by which ultimate salvation is achieved. Many in the reformed tradition continue to manufacture implausible theories to explain why, mysteriously, Paul here would describe salvation by works here in Romans 2, and yet not believe what he himself has written.

Drew, you make claims about Paul that are not true. There is nothing mysterious about what Paul says. It's only when you leave them sitting alone that they seem to say what you want. You also change the last sentence to suit your needs.

Paul's next words speak of sin...and we know the wages of sin is death.

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

I know you love to leave that one verse sitting alone, Drew, but the story doesn't end there, does it?
Paul reminds them there is none righteous.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

You aren't suggesting that good deeds or obeying the law covers the sin that Paul tells us all men are guilty of. Which is why Paul goes on to tell them how to be justified before God. That is faith...not their good deeds. Those who seek after eternal life by their works are still under condemnation without a believing faith.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

And here's your answer to the "mysterious" Rom. 2 verse.

Apparently God can say to the righteous he shall surely live, and in the next breath mention his iniquity will cause him to die. You don't think Paul knew about this verse when he wrote his letter?

When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

 

[glorydaz]

Glory already provided this verse and I will do so again:

Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified! The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort?

There is and always has been a danger of once being saved to revert back to living under the law in the form of legalism, either by manipulation and or coercion as you must do this or else.

But Paul is not talking about legalim here at all - he is talking about the Law of Moses and he is critiquing those who think that the Law of Moses - that is, being Jewish, justifies.

I am not saying that Paul does not have a critique of legalism. But the broader context here is clear - he is addressing the Law of Moses and its function as an ethnic charter which some Jews saw as excluding Gentiles from the family of God.

Apparently Paul is not only addressing the legalism of the Law of Moses, for his next words are these...

He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

 

[shad]

[
I preach it because the Word of God makes it abundantly clear.... works do NOT save us.

So you are saying that Christians don't have to be faithful to Jesus?
.

 

[glorydaz]

[
I preach it because the Word of God makes it abundantly clear.... works do NOT save us.

So you are saying that Christians don't have to be faithful to Jesus?
.

Have you ever heard me say that?????
....in all my posts you won't find anything to that effect.

There is a difference between obeying the Spirit within and self-effort.
The main difference is our works don't save us or keep us saved.

Being faithful to Jesus is being obedient to His voice not the law as we see it.
If it's up to us to decide what the commandments are, we can read them however we like.
If we listen for His voice, He will tell us to whoa or go. The law brings bondage plain and simple.

 

[Drew]

Drew, you make claims about Paul that are not true.

Quite the contrary, I am taking everything that Paul says as true - you need to deal with Romans 2:7 and, as per the previous thread, you have no argument that justifies not aking Romans 2:7 as it sits.

And it is not only Romans 2:7 - you deny Romans 8 where it is clear that it is those who walk in the Spirit who will live. Not to mention 2 Corinthians 5 where it is clear that Paul sees all humans as facing a works judgement with eternal life in the balance.

You also change the last sentence to suit your needs.

I change nothing - I take Romans 2:7 as it is and believe it. It is you who put forward an entirely unworkable argument as to why we do not have to take Paul at his word. I will show this below and in other follow on posts.

Paul's next words speak of sin...and we know the wages of sin is death.

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

You present one half of the thought. Note the emphasized material

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

You entirely ignore the statement that those who obey the law will be declared righteous. Why do you think you are allowed to do that?

And, having ignored that statement, you then present Romans 3 as evidence that none can do good. Well, it is clear from context that Paul is describing the state of the unregenerate believer. And of course, we can do no good apart from Christ. But as Romans 8 makes so clear, when we are in Christ, we are given the Spirit who, yes, gives life to your mortal body

Do you deny that Romans 3 (the first part) is about unregenerate man? What is your argument to that effect.

 

[shad]

Have you ever heard me say that?????
....in all my posts you won't find anything to that effect.

When you keep preaching things like "DON'T strive to obey Jesus! Works can't save you, so stop trying," then you are saying we don't have to do any works when we are saved. You are preaching against Jesus.

 

[glorydaz]

I am taking everything that Paul says as true - you need to deal with Romans 2:7 and, as per the previous thread, you have no argument that justifies not aking Romans 2:7 as it sits.

Nice try, Drew. You hope to avoid my post, which answers your Rom. 2 mystery quite well.
In fact, Ezekiel may have been speaking of this very letter from Paul. :biglaugh

Now, before I follow you down the yellow-brick road, you need to address this verse.

Apparently God can say to the righteous he shall surely live, and in the next breath mention his iniquity will cause him to die. You don't think Paul knew about this verse when he wrote his letter?

Ezekiel 33:13 wrote:
When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

 

[glorydaz]

Have you ever heard me say that?????
....in all my posts you won't find anything to that effect.

When you keep preaching things like "DON'T strive to obey Jesus! Works can't save you, so stop trying," then you are saying we don't have to do any works when we are saved. You are preaching against Jesus.

Actually, I'm saying the same thing Jesus says.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Where does this striving and "great effort" fit in with someone filled with the Spirit of God and the peace He gives? How are we to show forth the fruit of the spirit when we aren't resting in Him?
If we aren't experiencing love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance how can we ever be effective for the Lord? If we're constantly in a state of striving to please the Lord and fearful of losing our salvation, how in the world can we have Christ's Spirit in our hearts? I don't get it. I have a blessed assurance, and no lie from Satan will ever make me doubt what the Savior has accomplished for me and those others who have been given life everlasting.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

We were dead in our sins, and Jesus has lifted us up...never to forsake us. I'm sorry if it bothers you that I walk around with a smile on my face...no longer under bondage, but I sure wouldn't trade places with you, Shad....not in a million years.

Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

 

[shad]

Actually, I'm saying the same thing Jesus says.

Matt. 11:28-30 wrote:
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

You are preaching against Jesus because what Jesus is saying that if you obey Him your yoke will be easy.

Jesus also says to make every effort to get into God's kingdom. You are preaching against Jesus.