Law or Grace

[glorydaz]

It's the same way you take this very clear verse from Eph. and claim it is only for the Jews.
Now how you can do that and still look in the mirror is beyond me.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In verse 9, Paul is denying the salvific power of doing the works of Torah, and not the more general category of “good worksâ€.

A point of method: It simply will not do to declare up front that Paul is talking about good works here – that begs the question. No, the fair-minded reader needs to ask which of the following views makes more sense given both the local context and the broader context of the whole letter:

1. The salvific power of doing good works is being denied;

2. The salvific power of doing the works of the Law of Moses (the Torah) is being denied.

Explanation 2 is the one that makes sense in light of what Paul goes on to say in verse 11 and following as well as what he says in Romans 3, where he makes it clear that, in respect to good works, the Jew and the Gentile are in the same boat.

Proceeding to an examination of Ephesians 2:11 and following, Paul uses the "therefore" to show us that he is now going to fill out the implications of his denial of salvation by “worksâ€

Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Paul is clearly now talking about the Jew-Gentile divide, and how the actions of Jesus have brought Jew and Gentile together. Doing the works of Torah, of course, is what demarcates Jew from Gentile in terms of covenant membership and shuts the Gentile out of citizenship in Israel. Paul continues:

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations

How much more clear could Paul be? What has divided the Jew from the Gentile and been the barrier? Good works? Obviously not, both Jew and Gentile are on “the same side†of any good works barrier (first 20 or so verses of Romans 3). It is doing the works of Torah, of course, that is the very thing that the Jew might otherwise boast in and which is now being declared to not be salvific.

Ah, so you're claiming Jews can't do good works according to the Mosaic Law and be saved, but Gentiles can do good works outside the law and be saved. Interesting take, but silly on it's face.

Good works will never get you saved, Drew. Salvation is a free gift of God and you're a glory-stealer to claim otherwise. It's Christ's work on the cross, and you diminish His work at every turn. Ignoring or outright twisting all other Scripture to hang on to some doctrine fed you by some man.

And you keep going backwards when reading scripture...hoping to make some point that can not be made with a straight reading of the Word. Here's the portion (in context). There is nothing there, or in Eph. 1 that speaks of the Torah. You prefer reading backwards, but Paul has gone on...not back.

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[shad]

we need faith AND obedience

You are right, thats why you should not side with people who say "your works cannot save you". Faith without deed is dead. We need both faith and works. Without either, no salvation.

.

Our obedience is staying in the faith when we do that all else falls into place, if we are obedient to our faith, we will not walk outside of it and we can remain in Him.

what is your point? you are not making sense. :crazy

 

[glorydaz]

we need faith AND obedience

1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently: When we obey His command to believe we are purified by the blood He shed on the cross.
Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Yes, God gives the Holy Spirit to those who have obeyed His command to believe.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. He that obeyeth not has not obeyed His command to believe, so, yes, God's wrath is on him (who has not believed).

believe and obey - simple

When we obey His commandment to believe, He fills us with His Spirit so we can walk in newness of life. Our work is to believe in Him...thus allowing Him to work through us.

 

[DarcyLu]

what is your point? you are not making sense. :crazy

lol sorry, i am doing too many things at one time.
my point is IF we remain in the faith, believing the Word, believing who God says He is and what He can do and will do, allowing Christ to come in us, THEN we will show evidence of this through our works, we will know them by their fruit. it is our obedience to our faith that demonstrates the work we do so that no man can boast. But we must stay in the faith, it's an if and then statement.

 

[DarcyLu]

When we obey His commandment to believe, He fills us with His Spirit so we can walk in newness of life. Our work is to believe in Him...thus allowing Him to work through us.

If we remain in Him, this is what will happen

 

[glorydaz]

shad, we ARE His Kingdom. we must remain, stay, abide and allow Christ to continue coming in us.

You are making up your own salvation too. Jesus says to make every effort to get into His kingdom.

.

Poor Shad...let's say you hear about a wonderful city of peace and light.
You ask directions from all your friends how to get there.
You go to church to learn what it's like.
You get down on your knees and you entreat the king of the city to let you come in.
You study up on all the rules and regulations that might pertain to that city.

And then, one fine day, your heart is overwhelmed, and you beg forgiveness for all you've done in your life. The King hears your plea, and opens the door for you to enter into the city. All that effort was worth it....you're in. The King now tells you it's time to rest from all your efforts...you're in the city of light and He will lead you and guide you from here on out. You no longer have to make every effort to enter in...you're in and resting in the shelter of His arms. Don't be like the children of Israel who kept all the rules and ordinances but never entered into His rest. Jesus is our Sabbath rest...now we allow Him to work through us. We can trust in Him to work His will in us and through us. His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

 

[glorydaz]

When we obey His commandment to believe, He fills us with His Spirit so we can walk in newness of life. Our work is to believe in Him...thus allowing Him to work through us.

If we remain in Him, this is what will happen

We abide in Him, and He abides in us.
He's promised never to leave us or forsake us.
You ever try evicting the Almighty God? It doesn't work.
He chastens us until we submit to His will.
We're His children...He is our Father. :amen

 

[DarcyLu]

2 Timothy 2:12
if we endure, we shall also reign with him: if we shall deny him, he also will deny us:

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:13
But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

[Drew]

The verse in Romans says zilch about them doing good deeds to honor the Lord, now does it?

The logic of what Paul is saying demands that the subject deeds are done to honour the Lord.

Look: If these were deeds done to honour self, then why, o why, would Paul say that God will give eternal life to those who seek honour for themselves? What kind of God are you talking about here - one who promises eternal life to those who seek to honour and glorify themselves?

Logic is man's thinking...spiritual understanding is what we're looking for here, Drew.

My argument is what it is. Please deal with it. This kind of argument is often used when people are painted into a corner - when they see that their position has no exegetical support, they appeal to a mysterious "spiritual" understanding, as if that over-rules what the text is clearly stating.

Do you think it's just a coincidence that Paul uses the work "treasure" here?

But, gd, in the part of the text that you refer to, Paul is clearly talking to those who are headed towards condemnation and wrath, not those who get life. There are two categories of people in Romans 2, those who get wrath and those who get life.

But, one sin will wipe out every good deed they have ever done. Not by works of righteousness that we have done but according to His mercy He saves us.

The problem is that Paul never ever ever says - anywhere - that one has to live a perfect life in respect to "good works" to pass the coming works judgment.

 

[Drew]

Ah, so you're claiming Jews can't do good works according to the Mosaic Law and be saved, but Gentiles can do good works outside the law and be saved. Interesting take, but silly on it's face.

I am saying nothing of the kind. As the argument shows, Paul is focusing on the role of the Torah as an ethnic delimiter, not as a code of good moral conduct. That is why Paul focuses on the subject of circumcision. Let's be clear here - while the Torah indeed has a "moral" or "good works" dimension, Paul is focusing on its function of splitting the world into two camps - Jews and Gentiles. And the Torah does this through things like Sabbath, circumcision, and kosher purity laws.

We already know that Paul sees Jew and Gentile as both morally bankrupt (Romans 3). The rhetoric of the argument (in Ephesian 2:11 and following) is clear: Paul is saying that the abolition of the Law of Moses has brought Jew and Gentile into one family. Therefore, Paul is clearly seeing the Law of Moses as an ethnic delimiter. If you are going to make the point that Jew and Gentile are in the same family, the perfect way to do this is to undermine the function of Torah as an ethnic delimiter. Thus the perfect thing to say that "the works of the Law of Moses do not justify"

 

[Drew]

Good works will never get you saved, Drew.

Paul clearly does not share your view:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Salvation is a free gift of God and you're a glory-stealer to claim otherwise.

Who ever said that salvation was not a free gift?

You will find nothing, nada, zilch, in any of my posts that suggests otherwise.

It's Christ's work on the cross, and you diminish His work at every turn. Ignoring or outright twisting all other Scripture to hang on to some doctrine fed you by some man.

I suggest that the actual scriptural case suggests otherwise/ And, as many do when the weight of scriptural evidence is against you, you respond with claims of distortion and twisting of scripture.

 

[Drew]

And you keep going backwards when reading scripture...hoping to make some point that can not be made with a straight reading of the Word. Here's the portion (in context). There is nothing there, or in Eph. 1 that speaks of the Torah. You prefer reading backwards, but Paul has gone on...not back.

Clearly not a valid argument. Where is it written that one cannot make an assertion and then go on to qualify it in a manner that clarifies your real intention. Yes, Paul is not explicitly refering to Jews and Gentiles in the verse 10 verses. But when he makes his famous "you are not saved by works" statement, and then follows it with a "therefore" paragraph, it becomes clear that verses 11 and following show the consequence of his denial of salvation by works - and what Paul writes in those verses makes it clear that he had been talking of the function of the Torah as an ethnic marker.

 

[glorydaz]

And you keep going backwards when reading scripture...hoping to make some point that can not be made with a straight reading of the Word. Here's the portion (in context). There is nothing there, or in Eph. 1 that speaks of the Torah. You prefer reading backwards, but Paul has gone on...not back.

Clearly not a valid argument. Where is it written that one cannot make an assertion and then go on to qualify it in a manner that clarifies your real intention. Yes, Paul is not explicitly refering to Jews and Gentiles in the verse 10 verses. But when he makes his famous "you are not saved by works" statement, and then follows it with a "therefore" paragraph, it becomes clear that verses 11 and following show the consequence of his denial of salvation by works - and what Paul writes in those verses makes it clear that he had been talking of the function of the Torah as an ethnic marker.

No, Drew. You aren't making an assertion and then going on to clarify. You're making an assertion and then going back in order to change the meaning of the portion of scripture that came before.

We are saved by grace through faith. (That sounds familiar)
Not of ourselves. (Yep, that sounds familiar, too)
It is a gift. (Yes, a free gift, that sounds familiar, too)
Not of works...lest ANY MAN should boast. (not just the Jew...any man)

I have to wonder why you don't seem to notice the good deeds we, as Christ's workmanship are created to perform. Those speak of the fruit of the Spirit, and yet you ignore them. Instead of admitting we aren't saved by works, you claim the first works mentioned are those pertaining to the law so the verse can't be saying salvation doesn't come by works.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Definately speaking to the believers who were not Jews in the past.

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who
sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Here he's speaking of both Jew and gentile joining into one new man...the church.
Jesus nailed the law to the tree so the ordinances no longer separated the believer.
That has nothing to do with the works mentioned above, Drew.
What kind of gymnastics are you willing to perform to put forth your false doctrine?

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Yes, joined as one by the cross. They have joint access by the Holy Spirit to the Father.

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

 

[Drew]

No, Drew. You aren't making an assertion and then going on to clarify. You're making an assertion and then going back in order to change the meaning of the portion of scripture that came before.

No. You are not engaging my argument. It is perfectly acceptable for a person to make a statement and then go on to qualify it in a manner that clarifies what the orginal statement is all about.

We are saved by grace through faith. (That sounds familiar)
Not of ourselves. (Yep, that sounds familiar, too)
It is a gift. (Yes, a free gift, that sounds familiar, too)
Not of works...lest ANY MAN should boast. (not just the Jew...any man)

Every statement here is correct, but the last one is not. My arguments are what they are - you need to engage them, and not simply deny their conclusion.

And the arguments show that the "works" that cannot be boasted about are the works of the Law of Moses, not "good works" in general.

Instead of admitting we aren't saved by works, you claim the first works mentioned are those pertaining to the law so the verse can't be saying salvation doesn't come by works.

I do not "claim" - I claim and then provide supporting arguments, that have not been successfully refuted.

 

[Drew]

I have to wonder why you don't seem to notice the good deeds we, as Christ's workmanship are created to perform. Those speak of the fruit of the Spirit, and yet you ignore them.

I fully agree that it is good works, and not the works of the law that is at issue in verse 10. But the "works" in verse 9 for reasons I have already provided in detail.

Definately speaking to the believers who were not Jews in the past.

Yes, of course, he is not speaking to Jews. But that does not mean that he is not talking aboutJews - the Gentile needs to be reminded that they are on equal footing with the Jew.

Why are they on equal footing? Because people are not justified by doing the Torah, something only the Jew can do.