Law or Grace

[Drew]

And here's your answer to the "mysterious" Rom. 2 verse.

Apparently God can say to the righteous he shall surely live, and in the next breath mention his iniquity will cause him to die. You don't think Paul knew about this verse when he wrote his letter?

When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

This is not a valid argument.

No one will live by their own righteousness - I have never made such a claim. So this verse does no damage at all to my position, since my position never claimed that anybody gets by on their "own" righteousness. As Paul says in Romans 8, it is the Spirit who does the works that lead to life.

 

[Drew]

What is really so disturbing about the "you don't need good works" to be saved position is that it is so obviously requires you to believe that Paul says things that he doesn't really mean.

In Romans 2, Paul describes a coming judgement at which "each man" will receive in accordance with what they have done. Not what they have believed, but what they have done. And then Paul makes it clear that eternal life is at stake:

7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Now if each man receives in accordance with what he has done, and if the ones who do good get eternal life, why do people not believe this? What is the argument for suggesting that Paul does not mean what he says?

Well, one argument is that Romans 3 shows us that no one does good. Well, no kidding. Without being in Christ, no one indeed does good. Arguing that Romans 3 shows that Paul is "just kidding" in Romans 2 is like arguing that since a certain form of cancer is fatal, no one can survive it. Well, obviously without treatment, that would be true.

It is beyond question that Paul is talking about the unredeemed in Romans 3. If not, Romans 8 with its unambiguous affirmation of the possibility of "walking in the Spirit" unto eternal life would directly contradict Romans 3.

So there is simply no Biblical basis for denying that people can do good - they can when they are in Christ.

And then there is obvious mistake of thinking that when Paul denies jusfication by works of the law, he is denying justification by good works. This is simply not the case - he is denying that doing the works of the Law of Moses justifies. This is easy to show.

So there really is no case for believing that Paul does not mean what he writes in Romans 2:7.

 

[glorydaz]

Actually, I'm saying the same thing Jesus says.

Matt. 11:28-30 wrote:
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

You are preaching against Jesus because what Jesus is saying that if you obey Him your yoke will be easy.

Jesus also says to make every effort to get into God's kingdom. You are preaching against Jesus.

LOL Daggone it, Shad. I'm already in God's kingdom. Now I can rest under the shelter of His wings.

 

[glorydaz]

And here's your answer to the "mysterious" Rom. 2 verse.

Apparently God can say to the righteous he shall surely live, and in the next breath mention his iniquity will cause him to die. You don't think Paul knew about this verse when he wrote his letter?

When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

This is not a valid argument.

No one will live by their own righteousness - I have never made such a claim. So this verse does no damage at all to my position, since my position never claimed that anybody gets by on their "own" righteousness. As Paul says in Romans 8, it is the Spirit who does the works that lead to life.

And who seeks for glory and honour? Certainly not a servant of our Lord. This is speaking of those liberals do-gooders who seek after personal adulation and hope to impress the Lord. They can do good deeds til the cows come home hoping to earn their way into heaven, and one single sin will over-ride every single good deed they've done. They're trusting in their own righteousness just like Ez. says.
As I said before...you can seek...and you will have eternal life........IF.....you have no sin. This has been the entire message of Paul since he began Rom. 1.

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

 

[shad]

LOL Daggone it, Shad. I'm already in God's kingdom. Now I can rest under the shelter of His wings.

There you go again, you are already claiming you are saved without Jesus' approval. You are ignoring the fact that all of us will be judged at Lord's day.

You are not exception just because you are declaring yourself saved.

You are making up your own salvation.
.

 

[glorydaz]

What is really so disturbing about the "you don't need good works" to be saved position is that it is so obviously requires you to believe that Paul says things that he doesn't really mean.

In Romans 2, Paul describes a coming judgement at which "each man" will receive in accordance with what they have done. Not what they have believed, but what they have done. And then Paul makes it clear that eternal life is at stake:

7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Now if each man receives in accordance with what he has done, and if the ones who do good get eternal life, why do people not believe this? What is the argument for suggesting that Paul does not mean what he says?

No one believes it because Jesus says He is the way and no one comes to the Father except through Him. There is only ONE WAY...and that is not, nor will it ever be...by doing good works.

 

[shad]

No one believes it because Jesus says He is the way and no one comes to the Father except through Him. There is only ONE WAY...and that is not, nor will it ever be...by doing good works.

Yet, you say you dont have to be faithful to Jesus to be saved. Being faithful to Jesus is good works, dude.

 

[glorydaz]

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

You entirely ignore the statement that those who obey the law will be declared righteous. Why do you think you are allowed to do that?

No, I don't ignore it....I just thought it was self-evident.

Notice the words "perish" and "judged"? It matters not if a person is under the natural law of the Mosaic Law....He will be judged and perish.

What version do you use, Drew? This verse does not say those who obey the law will be declared righteous. Although, I guess even with your version you must know that no man can keep the whole law. For we're told that if you fail in one point, you're guilty of all. Either way....they lose. They will perish under the law since no one can be perfect.

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

And why is that? Because both will be found guilty. Being doers of the law means they can not fail in even one point. How many perfect people do you think there are? I know of only one.

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

I don't know, Drew. Look at Rom. 3. It seems as plain as the nose on nose face. It's not our righteousness...it's His.
We're justified....freely....by His blood. Where is our boasting, then? The blood of Christ washes away our sin. Man has no righteousness apart from God...hence the necessity of being washed.

20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 

[glorydaz]

No one believes it because Jesus says He is the way and no one comes to the Father except through Him. There is only ONE WAY...and that is not, nor will it ever be...by doing good works.

Yet, you say you dont have to be faithful to Jesus to be saved. Being faithful to Jesus is good works, dude.

Is that what you think? So you have to strive and make every effort to be faithful?
Hmmm....

Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

 

[shad]

glory says:

Is that what you think? So you have to strive and make every effort to be faithful?

Jesus says to make every effort to get into God's kingdom. This is not my word. You are making up your own salvation.

 

[glorydaz]

glory says:

Is that what you think? So you have to strive and make every effort to be faithful?

Jesus says to make every effort to get into God's kingdom. This is not my word. You are making up your own salvation.

To GET INTO His kingdom......get into......get it? :yes

I'm in it....now I can rest. Come to Jesus, you can find rest, too.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

You can cease from your own works...lest you fall into unbelief.
Enter in to the rest of Jesus.

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

It's glorious.

And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

 

[Drew]

And who seeks for glory and honour? Certainly not a servant of our Lord.

You will, of course, not be able to provide any text at all that supports your assertion that redeemed saints do not seek glory or honour. In fact, in Romans 8, Paul tells us that the redeemed will live a new life that brings honour and glory to the Lord:

....in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

Clearly, those who live according to the Spirit are seeking glory and honour. What do you think that those who walk in the Spirit seek? Disrepute? Shame? It is patently clear that the life described in Romans 8 is indeed one that involves seeking glory and honour.

They're trusting in their own righteousness just like Ez. says.

I am beginning to wonder whether you are deliberately ignoring what I (and perhaps others) have written. Well that would be no surprise - you also ignore Paul in Romans 2 and 8, so I shouldn't be surprised. I am not saying that Paul might not means what he writes in 2:7 - if, in fact, Paul had gone on to say that one couldn't meet the 2:7 standard then you would have a case. But not only does Paul never deny the possibility of salvation by good works, he in fact affirms this in chapter 8 where he says that those who walk in the Spirit will live.

Unless you are not reading my posts, you know that I have been arguing all along that no one who trusts in their own righteousness will get life. I read Romans 3 and believe it. You should try the same in respect to Romans 2 - believing what Paul actually writes.

 

[glorydaz]

And who seeks for glory and honour? Certainly not a servant of our Lord.

You will, of course, not be able to provide any text at all that supports your assertion that redeemed saints do not seek glory or honour. In fact, in Romans 8, Paul tells us that the redeemed will live a new life that brings honour and glory to the Lord:

The verse in Romans says zilch about them doing good deeds to honor the Lord, now does it?

 

[glorydaz]

And who seeks for glory and honour? Certainly not a servant of our Lord.

You will, of course, not be able to provide any text at all that supports your assertion that redeemed saints do not seek glory or honour. In fact, in Romans 8, Paul tells us that the redeemed will live a new life that brings honour and glory to the Lord:

....in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

Clearly, those who live according to the Spirit are seeking glory and honour. What do you think that those who walk in the Spirit seek? Disrepute? Shame? It is patently clear that the life described in Romans 8 is indeed one that involves seeking glory and honour.

They're trusting in their own righteousness just like Ez. says.

I am beginning to wonder whether you are deliberately ignoring what I (and perhaps others) have written. Well that would be no surprise - you also ignore Paul, so I shouldn't be surprised.

Unless you are not reading my posts, you know that I have been arguing all along that no one who trusts in their own righteousness will get life. I read Romans 3 and believe it. You should try the same in respect to Romans 2 - believing what Paul actually writes.

No, when I walk in obedience to the Lord I'm not seeking glory and honour.
And if you think your good deeds are going to give you a pass into glory, you're in for a big surprise.

Now you can try to twist it around however you like, but you're still not putting the verse in context, and you're still insisting we're saved by deeds. We aren't. And far from ignoring Paul, I'm taking what he says as Gospel. He isn't saying what you claim...simple as that. He would never claim that man can be saved in any way other than being justified by faith in Jesus. He says it over and over, but you continue to insist he isn't saying what he is...or he doesn't mean it when he says, all men sin and come short of the glory of God. Salvation is a free gift...to claim otherwise is to rob Jesus of the glory He alone deserves. He went to the cross...not you. Our obedience is no more than what we owe our Lord and King.

 

[Drew]

As I said before...you can seek...and you will have eternal life........IF.....you have no sin. This has been the entire message of Paul since he began Rom. 1.

Where gd, and please be specific, does Paul say that the believer must live a perfect life to gain the eternal life as per Romans 2:7? Ezekiel is not Paul. And in any event, what Ezekiel says in no way hurts my argument as you have already been shown.

There is, of course, a huge difference between believers and non-believers in respect to doing good. Have you read Romans 8? The New Testament is chock full of accounts of how the believer can do good works - what do you think Paul is talking about when he refers to being "renewed in your mind" (Romans 12)?

Obviously Romans 3 (the first half) is about the state of man without Christ. So what Paul writes in chapter 3 in no way undermines his Romans 2 statement about people being given eternal life in accordance with their good works.

 

[Drew]

No, when I walk in obedience to the Lord I'm not seeking glory and honour.

This is absurd. Of course when you walk in the obedience you are seeking honour. What do people who walk in obedience seek? Dishonour? Please.

And if you think your good deeds are going to give you a pass into glory, you're in for a big surprise.

You have been repeatedly told that the good deeds we manifest are not "our" deeds. Its hard to debate with you when repeatedly imply that I am saying I am not - that "my" good deeds will save me. I am the vessel -it is the Spirit working in me which generates the good works.

Now you can try to twist it around however you like, but you're still not putting the verse in context, and you're still insisting we're saved by deeds. We aren't.

Well what does Paul say?:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

Paul is clearly saying that our ultimate salvation is contingent upon deeds. So you are disagreeing with Paul.

And far from ignoring Paul, I'm taking what he says as Gospel. He isn't saying what you claim...simple as that.

Hey it is not me who denies 2:7, it is you.

And it is not me who denies Romans 8. It is you.

 

[Drew]

[He would never claim that man can be saved in any way other than being justified by faith in Jesus.

Not quite. Paul means what he says - future justication be in accordance with good works. But Paul is equally clear that if, in the present, someone puts faith in Jesus, their ultimate future (works-based) justification is assured.

He says it over and over, but you continue to insist he isn't saying what he is...or he doesn't mean it when he says, all men sin and come short of the glory of God. Salvation is a free gift...to claim otherwise is to rob Jesus of the glory He alone deserves. He went to the cross...not you. Our obedience is no more than what we owe our Lord and King.

I have never denied that salvation is a free gift or that faith does not assure our ultimate justification. Nothing, repeat nothing I have posted suggests otherwise.

 

[Drew]

No one believes it because Jesus says He is the way and no one comes to the Father except through Him. There is only ONE WAY...and that is not, nor will it ever be...by doing good works.

You are bringing your own model to Paul's writings, and when you find statements that do not work in the context of your model, you choose to ignore them - Romans 2:7 and several statements in Romans 8.

The careful reader will know that the picture I am describing in no way denies that Jesus is the only way to the Father.

 

[glorydaz]

As I said before...you can seek...and you will have eternal life........IF.....you have no sin. This has been the entire message of Paul since he began Rom. 1.

Where gd, and please be specific, does Paul say that the believer must live a perfect life to gain the eternal life as per Romans 2:7? Ezekiel is not Paul. And in any event, what Ezekiel says in no way hurts my argument as you have already been shown.

There is, of course, a huge difference between believers and non-believers in respect to doing good. Have you read Romans 8? The New Testament is chock full of accounts of how the believer can do good works - what do you think Paul is talking about when he refers to being "renewed in your mind" (Romans 12)?

Obviously Romans 3 (the first half) is about the state of man without Christ. So what Paul writes in chapter 3 in no way undermines his Romans 2 statement about people being given eternal life in accordance with their good works.

It's interesting how you claim Rom. 3 is about the unregenerate but you deny Rom. 2 is.
It's the same way you take this very clear verse from Eph. and claim it is only for the Jews.
Now how you can do that and still look in the mirror is beyond me.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Of course a believer can do good works...I've never claimed otherwise. His good works do not get him saved, however. The work on the cross and His grace toward us is what gets us saved. You insist on claiming man's works have a part in his own salvation. Every false religion in the world claims that...it's no new claim, but it's still a false one.

Now, please tell me why you ignore these verses...which are quite clear.

Do you see works here?

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

You see...NOT according to works here.

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

I can understand why you want to keep harping on Rom. 2...it allows you to avoid verses like this that prove your understanding of Rom. 2 is totally off the mark.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[Drew]

Notice the words "perish" and "judged"? It matters not if a person is under the natural law of the Mosaic Law....He will be judged and perish.

But gd, you again only tell one side of the story and screen out what does not map to your model. Yes, some people will perish. But some will be declared to be righteous!!!

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

What version do you use, Drew? This verse does not say those who obey the law will be declared righteous.

The text speaks for itself - those....who...obey...the...law....will.....be....declared....righteous. I am using the NIV but here is the same text in the NET and NASB:

for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous before God, but those who do the law will be declared righteous

So, as we can see, the text does indeed say that those who obey the law will be declared righteous. It is you who believes, against Romans 8, that no one can do this.