Law or Grace

[glorydaz]

No, when I walk in obedience to the Lord I'm not seeking glory and honour.

This is absurd. Of course when you walk in the obedience you are seeking honour. What do people who walk in obedience seek? Dishonour? Please.

That is the comment of the unregenerate.

No one with a circumcised heart obeys to gain honor.
Have you ever heard of doing something out of love alone?

I didn't think so.

 

[Drew]

Although, I guess even with your version you must know that no man can keep the whole law.

Of course I know this.

For we're told that if you fail in one point, you're guilty of all. Either way....they lose. They will perish under the law since no one can be perfect.

When Paul refers to "the law" in Romans 2:13, he is not referring to the Law of Moses. The reasons for this are more complex than I can address right now. But I will get to this. If my argument works, and I am convinced that it does, then my position remains intact - I can affirm that if you violate one part of the Law of Moses, you are guilty of it all. But since "the law" in 2:13 is not the Law of Moses, I can still claim that one can indeed be justified by good works.

I don't know, Drew. Look at Rom. 3. It seems as plain as the nose on nose face. It's not our righteousness...it's His.

You mysteriously seem to think that Romans 3 is talking about the believer when it clearly isn't.

We're justified....freely....by His blood.

I have, of course never denied this. If you think I am denying this, you are either intentionally misrepresenting me or are not carefully reading my posts.

20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Indeed. But Paul here is talking about the Law of Moses - he is not denying that "good works" cannot justify.

 

[Drew]

No, when I walk in obedience to the Lord I'm not seeking glory and honour.

This is absurd. Of course when you walk in the obedience you are seeking honour. What do people who walk in obedience seek? Dishonour? Please.

That is the comment of the unregenerate.

No one with a circumcised heart obeys to gain honor.
Have you ever heard of doing something out of love alone?

I didn't think so.

You are not reading Paul faithfully yet again. Paul writes this:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

....but you bend it into this:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek their own glory, their own honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Paul never says that the activity here is self-seeking - you adding a qualification that Paul himself has not added.

 

[glorydaz]

Well what does Paul say?:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

Paul is clearly saying that our ultimate salvation is contingent upon deeds. So you are disagreeing with Paul.

No, once again I'm disagreeing with you.
And I'm getting a bit bored with your taking scripture out of context.

This is the biggest twist yet, and a blatant attempt to mislead.
How you can claim this portion of scripture says our ultimate salvation is contingent upon deeds is way beyond me. It has nothing to do with deeds. It speaks of our having dominion over sin by the power of the Spirit within us. You dig deep but you're coming up with fool's gold.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

I have a feeling you're not fooling anyone, Drew....except maybe Shad.
I'd like to know what you're reading because it sure isn't the Bible.

 

[glorydaz]

You are not reading Paul faithfully yet again. Paul writes this:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

....but you bend it into this:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek their own glory, their own honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Paul never says that the activity here is self-seeking - you adding a qualification that Paul himself has not added.

And you change the scripture to say "he will give eternal life".
What version you reading, Drew?

I keep asking and you keep avoiding.


I do have to chuckle. You accuse me of adding "own" glory, and yet you freely add "God's" glory. :rolling

 

[glorydaz]

When Paul refers to "the law" in Romans 2:13, he is not referring to the Law of Moses. The reasons for this are more complex than I can address right now. But I will get to this. If my argument works, and I am convinced that it does, then my position remains intact - I can affirm that if you violate one part of the Law of Moses, you are guilty of it all. But since "the law" in 2:13 is not the Law of Moses, I can still claim that one can indeed be justified by good works.

You know what? You can twist and turn and claim it's not that law but this one all you want.
It's all the same law. And, yes, you can claim anything you want, but the only thing you're accomplishing is derailing my thread. I do so appreciate that. You're full of your own ideas, but they have no basis in fact, and I surely do hate it when I see the Bible being tortured the way you do.

I have news for you...the Bible is given to be read by the simple people. If it's too complex to discuss right now, it's obviously error concocted by a boastful man leaning on his own understanding. Sorry, but that's the way I see it. G'Night, Drew. I'm outa here.

 

[shad]

To GET INTO His kingdom......get into......get it? :yes

That's what you are saying, not Jesus. You will not get into God's kingdom when you are preaching and working against Jesus' word by saying "works cannot save you". Jesus says to "make every effort to get into God's kingdom". Effort is a lot of work, dude.

You are making up your own salvation.

.

 

[Drew]

And who seeks for glory and honour? Certainly not a servant of our Lord.

You will, of course, not be able to provide any text at all that supports your assertion that redeemed saints do not seek glory or honour. In fact, in Romans 8, Paul tells us that the redeemed will live a new life that brings honour and glory to the Lord:

The verse in Romans says zilch about them doing good deeds to honor the Lord, now does it?

The logic of what Paul is saying demands that the subject deeds are done to honour the Lord.

Look: If these were deeds done to honour self, then why, o why, would Paul say that God will give eternal life to those who seek honour for themselves? What kind of God are you talking about here - one who promises eternal life to those who seek to honour and glorify themselves?

 

[Drew]

It's interesting how you claim Rom. 3 is about the unregenerate but you deny Rom. 2 is.

Well Paul was very clear about this.

The person in the first half of Romans 3 is hopelessly incapable of doing good. Now gd, are you saying that the Christian is incapable of doing good? Well, remember Romans 8 - the believer is pre-destined to be what? Hopelessly lost in sin? No. Conformed to the image of the Son. And if the believer is conformed to the image of Jesus, that believer obviously can do good works.

As for Romans 2, Paul clearly is describing a judgement for all humanity. Some get eternal life, some get condemnation. I know that your argument is that no Christians will be at that judgement. Well (1) you have no evidence for this and (2) even if you did, we would have to explain why Paul repeatedly says that people will get life and be declared righteous at a judgement where zero Christians will be present.

Now it is true that, in Romans 3, Paul never explicitly says that he is only talking about the unregnerate. But when we get to Romans 8, we are forced to conclude this. Do I really need to explain why?

I guess I do - the person in Romans 8 can walk in the Spirit and be conformed to the image of Jesus. Is such a person in the same hopeless state as the person in Romans 3? Obviously not.

It's the same way you take this very clear verse from Eph. and claim it is only for the Jews.
Now how you can do that and still look in the mirror is beyond me.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What an outrageous statement. I have twice, yes twice posted a detailed argument to support my take on Ephesians 2. And you simply refuse to engage it. Why? I suggest the reason is obvious – you cannot find an error in that argument so you simply ignore it. It is clear that in Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul is talking about Jew trying to get justified by doing Torah. I am not going to waste my time re-posting arguments that you repeatedly ignore.

I may post this again for the benefit of others, though.

 

[Drew]

Well what does Paul say?:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

Paul is clearly saying that our ultimate salvation is contingent upon deeds. So you are disagreeing with Paul.

No, once again I'm disagreeing with you.
And I'm getting a bit bored with your taking scripture out of context.

This is the biggest twist yet, and a blatant attempt to mislead.

What an outrageous falsehood. You have no evidence to claim that I am attempting mislead.

But perhaps we should not be surprised - you appear to be quite content to make other claims without evidence.

How you can claim this portion of scripture says our ultimate salvation is contingent upon deeds is way beyond me. It has nothing to do with deeds. It speaks of our having dominion over sin by the power of the Spirit within us. You dig deep but you're coming up with fool's gold.

No. I realize that Romans 8 does great damage to your position, but Paul is really quite clear - it is through walking / living in the Spirit and putting and putting death to the misdeeds of the body that we will live and have our mortal bodies transformed into immortal ones. So this is indeed about a connection between how we live and our ultimate salvation.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

 

[Drew]

You are not reading Paul faithfully yet again. Paul writes this:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

....but you bend it into this:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek their own glory, their own honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Paul never says that the activity here is self-seeking - you adding a qualification that Paul himself has not added.

And you change the scripture to say "he will give eternal life".
What version you reading, Drew?

I think we have been down this road before. The text says what it says and it says that God will give eternal life to those who do good. Here is the text in many different translations:

NET: eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality

NIV: To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life

NLT: He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers

NRSV: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Now please, the text says what it says – that doing good results in eternal life. The NASB also says this, even though you deny it. How can we discuss this if you cannot understand the meaning of a sentence in English?

 

[Drew]

It's the same way you take this very clear verse from Eph. and claim it is only for the Jews.
Now how you can do that and still look in the mirror is beyond me.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Here is Ephesians 2:8-9 from the NASB:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

In verse 9, Paul is denying the salvific power of doing the works of Torah, and not the more general category of “good worksâ€.

A point of method: It simply will not do to declare up front that Paul is talking about good works here – that begs the question. No, the fair-minded reader needs to ask which of the following views makes more sense given both the local context and the broader context of the whole letter:

1. The salvific power of doing good works is being denied;

2. The salvific power of doing the works of the Law of Moses (the Torah) is being denied.

Explanation 2 is the one that makes sense in light of what Paul goes on to say in verse 11 and following as well as what he says in Romans 3, where he makes it clear that, in respect to good works, the Jew and the Gentile are in the same boat.

Proceeding to an examination of Ephesians 2:11 and following, Paul uses the "therefore" to show us that he is now going to fill out the implications of his denial of salvation by “worksâ€

Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Paul is clearly now talking about the Jew-Gentile divide, and how the actions of Jesus have brought Jew and Gentile together. Doing the works of Torah, of course, is what demarcates Jew from Gentile in terms of covenant membership and shuts the Gentile out of citizenship in Israel. Paul continues:

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations

How much more clear could Paul be? What has divided the Jew from the Gentile and been the barrier? Good works? Obviously not, both Jew and Gentile are on “the same side†of any good works barrier (first 20 or so verses of Romans 3). It is doing the works of Torah, of course, that is the very thing that the Jew might otherwise boast in and which is now being declared to not be salvific.

 

[glorydaz]

To GET INTO His kingdom......get into......get it? :yes

That's what you are saying, not Jesus. You will not get into God's kingdom when you are preaching and working against Jesus' word by saying "works cannot save you". Jesus says to "make every effort to get into God's kingdom". Effort is a lot of work, dude.

You are making up your own salvation.

.

Poor Shad. Let's say you want to go to summer camp.
You beg your parents to let you go.
You catch up on all your chores.
You save your money.
You pack your suitcase.
You feed the dog.
You talk your parents into driving you to camp.

Then, once you get there, you get to relax and enjoy your time in camp.

Cool, huh?

 

[DarcyLu]

glory says:

Is that what you think? So you have to strive and make every effort to be faithful?

Jesus says to make every effort to get into God's kingdom. This is not my word. You are making up your own salvation.

shad, we ARE His Kingdom. we must remain, stay, abide and allow Christ to continue coming in us.

 

[glorydaz]

The verse in Romans says zilch about them doing good deeds to honor the Lord, now does it?

The logic of what Paul is saying demands that the subject deeds are done to honour the Lord.

Look: If these were deeds done to honour self, then why, o why, would Paul say that God will give eternal life to those who seek honour for themselves? What kind of God are you talking about here - one who promises eternal life to those who seek to honour and glorify themselves?

Logic is man's thinking...spiritual understanding is what we're looking for here, Drew.

Do you think it's just a coincidence that Paul uses the work "treasure" here?
These people think they are storing up a treasure chest of good deeds...thinking that will buy them eternal life. But, one sin will wipe out every good deed they have ever done. Not by works of righteousness that we have done but according to His mercy He saves us.

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

 

[shad]

shad, we ARE His Kingdom. we must remain, stay, abide and allow Christ to continue coming in us.

You are making up your own salvation too. Jesus says to make every effort to get into His kingdom.

.

 

[DarcyLu]

we need faith AND obedience

1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently:

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

believe and obey - simple

 

[DarcyLu]

shad, we ARE His Kingdom. we must remain, stay, abide and allow Christ to continue coming in us.

You are making up your own salvation too. Jesus says to make every effort to get into His kingdom.

.

Yes, and now are you in it? If Christ is in you, then you are now part of His Kingdom, now we can abide in Him and He will come in us.

 

[shad]

we need faith AND obedience

You are right, thats why you should not side with people who say "your works cannot save you". Faith without deed is dead. We need both faith and works. Without either, no salvation.

.

 

[DarcyLu]

we need faith AND obedience

You are right, thats why you should not side with people who say "your works cannot save you". Faith without deed is dead. We need both faith and works. Without either, no salvation.

.

Our obedience is staying in the faith when we do that all else falls into place, if we are obedient to our faith, we will not walk outside of it and we can remain in Him.