Let's talk about homosexuality (again!)

[Christ_empowered]

Here locally when they have a female pastor they’ve already died to the community so….


From a biblical perspective it’s appropriate. It’s also rather smart, strategically. I just…

Ok you caught me. I thought it came off as mean spirited. But it is solid biblically which is the best goal .

 

[Uncle J]

Again we see the hate behind Tenchi 's latest posts, i.e., it's all about how awful it is that LGBTQs are allowed to exist in public.

And that brings me back to the question I keep asking....what's the desired outcome here? To make being queer illegal? Imprison any and all LGBTQs?

 

[electedbyHim]

Anything that comes from the written word of God will be hate speech to the unregenerate that are hellbound.

This is why they mocked, tortued and Crucified Jesus Christ.

The unregenerate hate God's light and love their own sin.

This is why God gave them over to their depraved minds.

Romans 1:26-32 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

 

[Uncle J]

Anything that comes from the written word of God will be hate speech to the unregenerate that are hellbound.

Nope. If all Christians did was say that the Bible says it's a sin to be queer, it wouldn't be seen as any different than Orthodox Jews believing it's sinful to eat pork.

It's when Christians take the next step and engage in the sort of rhetoric that we've seen in this thread, such as that all gay couples are faking their happiness and commitments, LGBTQs are all Marxists seeking to destroy western civilization, or that merely allowing them to exist in public is unacceptable, that it becomes hate speech.

It's really quite fascinating how so many Christians just can't seem to grasp what seems to be a fairly simple concept.

 

[Riven]

I believe He inspired and superintended the writing of the Bible. The Bible has the mark of the divine upon it sufficiently to persuade me it is actually God's word. I deduce this from the following:

1.) Thematic unity.
2.) Fulfilled prophecy.
3.) Historicity.
4) Survivability.
5.) Effect upon individuals and nations.
6.) Explanatory power.

Cumulatively, these things convince me that the Bible is no mere book, just the invention of men, but the divinely-inspired word of God in which God has revealed Himself to humanity.

No, I disagree. God would have no need of men to communicate his message to the world.

Again, no one is making out like Roman Catholic priests who abuse children aren't the foul creatures that they are.

But they sure don't talk about it nearly as much as homosexuality. As pervasive as it is within the church, it should be the only thing Christians are talking about. Especially given that there's been no justice in any of these cases.

And "consenting (homosexual) adults" aren't keeping what they do "in the privacy of their own home" at all. Instead, they parade down city streets, engaging often in lewd acts, dressed in obscene garb, demanding public recognition of their perversion and celebration of it. How is this "what they do in the privacy of their own home"? Generally, Christians are no more concerned about the sin of homosexuality than its regular and overt promotion in the culture gives them cause to be.

Again, Pride is one month out of the year. I live in south Florida and I never see gay people parading down the street engaging in lewd acts.

Oh? How do you know this? How many Christians do you know sufficiently well to have obtained access to their internet search history? This remark sounds like the sort of overgeneralization the racist makes about various ethnic groups...

It was just a joke. However, I suspect that if we could look at their internet history, we would find that they consume pornography just as much as the general population.

How would you know this, exactly? How many churches have you been in long enough to judge accurately how frequently teaching on homosexuality occurs? The Baptist church I've attended for the last decade hasn't had a single sermon on homosexuality, or even a mention of it from the pulpit, for that matter.

I haven't been to a church in over ten years. But even back then, there were sermons about it fairly regularly. That and evolution and how Darwin got it wrong.

??? You're kidding me, right? I attended a high school of some 2500 students. It was a wild place, at times: violent, drug-ridden, lots of alcoholism, gang stuff and suicide. But never, at any time, was any sin promoted in the school in the way LGBTQ stuff is today, entire hallways plastered with propaganda celebrating fornication, or drug abuse, or gang violence; never did my fellows students ever mock me for not being a druggie, or abstaining from alcohol; never did they tell me it was only a matter of time before I took up their sin for myself.

I don't know of any school where the straight students are shamed for being straight. The vast majority of people are straight afterall. Do you have any examples of this, or is it all hearsay?

How do you know this, exactly?

It's happened before and it continues to happen. Straight Christians might day homosexuality is a sin and leave it at that. However, undercover gay Christians in a position of power, usually turn it into a crusade, and then we five out later that they were gay all along.

Disgraced pastor Ted Haggard faces new allegations

(RNS) — A pastor at St. James Church said two young adult men told him Haggard touched them inappropriately on several occasions at the church.

religionnews.com

And in any case, no biblical Christian would ever support a theocratic form of governance. That's the project of Islam, not Christianity.

As awful as a tyrannical theocracy would be, it grows increasingly preferable to the present grotesque and depraved culture taking shape in North America.

So, no Christian would ever support it, but here you are saying that it would be preferable to what we have now. In any case, I think you're wrong. I think many Christians would support a theocracy, so long as it's Christian.

But you've been going on about homosexuals being consenting adults wanting to be left alone to do as they wish in the privacy of their own homes. This is, as the examples I've given demonstrate, not the case. The bakers had to win their case in court only because those "consenting adults" you're talking about took them to court.

Most of them do just want you be left alone. How many gay people do you actually know in real life? The ones I have met were just normal everyday people that you'd never suspect. They weren't seeking attention or trying to "convert" straight people.

??? "Only one month out of the year"? What's this supposed to mean? What other sin gets a month's promotion every year? Why should any sin get such promotion? It's sin!

To you. The rest of the population doesn't care.

And the idea that one is more likely to hear about homosexuality inside the church than outside of it is sheer nonsense In the hyper-liberal, "progressive" churches that have embraced the LGBTQ cause this might be the case, but in Bible-believing, God-honoring churches you'll encounter no Gay Pride parades, or see rainbow flags, or be issued pro-LGBTQ bumper stickers, or have perverts in demon outfits reading books to children, or be shown movies about homosexual relationships, or hear songs about sodomy. No, in my fifty years of experience within the Church, these sorts of things are going on outside the Church, not within it.

No, instead we get stuff like this.

 

[electedbyHim]

Nope. If all Christians did was say that the Bible says it's a sin to be queer, it wouldn't be seen as any different than Orthodox Jews believing it's sinful to eat pork.

It's when Christians take the next step and engage in the sort of rhetoric that we've seen in this thread, such as that all gay couples are faking their happiness and commitments, LGBTQs are all Marxists seeking to destroy western civilization, or that merely allowing them to exist in public is unacceptable, that it becomes hate speech.

It's really quite fascinating how so many Christians just can't seem to grasp what seems to be a fairly simple concept.

Its really quite fascinating that the unregenerate approve of such heinous behavior of homosexuals.

You are this forum to mock and accuse the bretheren, you are very consistent in doing that.

It is not like you are here to learn of Jesus Christ, because you are not.

Friend, you will bow to the Lord Jesus Christ one day, I pray that is by your own submission to Him.

 

[Uncle J]

Its really quite fascinating that the unregenerate approve of such heinous behavior of homosexuals.

You are this forum to mock and accuse the bretheren, you are very consistent in doing that.

It is not like you are here to learn of Jesus Christ, because you are not.

Friend, you will bow to the Lord Jesus Christ one day, I pray that is by your own submission to Him.

Wow....I really don't get this.

You see, in my mind "Saying it's a sin to be gay is fine, but demonizing gay people by calling them names and engaging in hate speech isn't" seems like such a simple thing to understand and apply.

But apparently to some Christians, it's either too complex of a concept to understand, or they're so wedded to their hate speech that they're completely unwilling to give it up.

Again, it's quite fascinating to watch, especially given how it's one of the main factors behind the rapid decline of Christianity in the west.

 

[electedbyHim]

Wow....I really don't get this.

You see, in my mind "Saying it's a sin to be gay is fine, but demonizing gay people by calling them names and engaging in hate speech isn't" seems like such a simple thing to understand and apply.

But apparently to some Christians, it's either too complex of a concept to understand, or they're so wedded to their hate speech that they're completely unwilling to give it up.

Again, it's quite fascinating to watch, especially given how it's one of the main factors behind the rapid decline of Christianity in the west.

Wow....I really don't get this.

That is truth.

Christianity is most definitely not on a decline.

What you do not understand is the the Sovereign Lord is in control of every single detail of life, including the sin of the world. This is all part of His plan for the purpose of those in Christ and ultimately for His glory. The unregenerate do not understand this and cannot, they are dead in sin and cannot understand the things of God.

Things will only get worse, sin will get worse in this world, you are witnessing and approving these things right now. It will only get worse. This is part of God's plan and what His word teaches.

Get on your knees now and repent of your sin, ask Him sincerely from your heart to forgive you becuase you fall short of His standards, beg for mercy before Him with a contrite heart and accept His pure love of Grace and mercy.

One never knows if they will live to see the next hour.

 

[WIP]

Christianity is most definitely not on a decline.

I beg to differ. Those identifying as Christian in the US has been on a pretty steady decline since about 1992.

 

[electedbyHim]

I beg to differ. Those identifying as Christian in the US has been on a pretty steady decline since about 1992.

View attachment 16048

This is great.

Who makes the case who is truly a Christian with these polls.

What is the criteria for a truly regenerated human? Are the people making the polls truly Chrisitan?

I have doubt in man made polls and facts.

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can know it?

God's purpose will not be thwarted. His elect will be saved. This is not even a dispute.

This goes back to, what is the world percentage of truly regenerated people.

10% of the total population?

The many and the few.

 

[Riven]

I have doubt in man made polls and facts.

As opposed to what? God-made polls and facts? Lol.

 

[electedbyHim]

As opposed to what? God-made polls and facts? Lol.

The point was the state of the human heart of the unregenerate who make the polls.

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can know it?

 

[Tenchi]

No, I disagree. God would have no need of men to communicate his message to the world.

Oh? What special insight to God's mind have you got that makes you so certain of this?

But they sure don't talk about it nearly as much as homosexuality. As pervasive as it is within the church, it should be the only thing Christians are talking about. Especially given that there's been no justice in any of these cases.

I'm not Roman Catholic, so I can't speak to their response to sin in their leadership. Wouldn't you, though, be complaining about their preoccupation with child sexual abuse if they focused on it in the way you think they should? You've only negative things to say about the Church's (not R.C. church) focus on the sin of homosexuality...

Again, Pride is one month out of the year. I live in south Florida and I never see gay people parading down the street engaging in lewd acts.

And, again, it shouldn't go on for even five minutes once a year. That an entire month is occupied with this sin every year is hardly "consenting adults carrying on in the privacy of their home."

I don't know of any school where the straight students are shamed for being straight. The vast majority of people are straight afterall. Do you have any examples of this, or is it all hearsay?

I already gave you two examples given to me directly from Christian youth who were telling me about their experiences in public school these days.

It's happened before and it continues to happen. Straight Christians might day homosexuality is a sin and leave it at that. However, undercover gay Christians in a position of power, usually turn it into a crusade, and then we five out later that they were gay all along.

Do you know how many evangelical Christian pastors there are in North America? Just within the relatively small Baptist conference to which my church belongs, there are over four hundred pastors. There are dozens of other Baptist organizations, some much larger than the one to which my church belongs. Add to these all of the other evangelical church pastors in various organizations (and independent church pastors, too) and I'd estimate roughly that there are thirty thousand of them, at least, in North America. And so, even if you could find a hundred examples of the Ted Haggard sort, it would represent only a small fraction of all the Christian pastors that there are.

Anyway, I don't know what "turn it into a crusade" means. Certainly, merely acknowledging that it's a sin is hardly the treatment the Bible gives to the sin of homosexuality. And a Christian pastor shouldn't be taking his cue from sinners outside the Church when it comes to how much or little to address any particular sin. If this means they want to suspect pastors who challenge the overt celebration of homosexuality as being homosexual themselves, well, it's a free country and nobody can stop them. It's pretty...convenient, though, for the homosexual sinner to make such a charge; a clever way to try to stifle any concerted criticism of their cherished sin.

Most of them do just want you be left alone. How many gay people do you actually know in real life?

Several. My brother-in-law is homosexual. Why? Does not knowing homosexuals personally mean a person can't observe that they hold parades, and have their own flag, and have extorted a month-long acknowledgement of their sin from the public? If so, how does that work, exactly?

The ones I have met were just normal everyday people that you'd never suspect. They weren't seeking attention or trying to "convert" straight people.

Yes, some are like this.

To you. The rest of the population doesn't care.

I don't care what the majority are willing to support, only what God does and doesn't approve. And He most certainly condemns homosexuality as an abominable, soul-destroying sin.

No, instead we get stuff like this.

I don't see this sort of pastor in the majority among evangelical, Protestant pastors - or anywhere near it - in Canada. And all the American pastors I know aren't like this guy, either. In fact, he stands out precisely because he is a peculiar rarity.

 

[Riven]

Oh? What special insight to God's mind have you got that makes you so certain of this?

The fact that he's God and can do anything?

I'm not Roman Catholic, so I can't speak to their response to sin in their leadership. Wouldn't you, though, be complaining about their preoccupation with child sexual abuse if they focused on it in the way you think they should?

No. I would only be angry if they focused on it and then did nothing about it. As it stands, they just sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn't happen.

You've only negative things to say about the Church's (not R.C. church) focus on the sin of homosexuality...

Because I think it's such a stupid thing to worry about.

And, again, it shouldn't go on for even five minutes once a year. That an entire month is occupied with this sin every year is hardly "consenting adults carrying on in the privacy of their home."

Well, you could always move to Saudi Arabia. I'm pretty sure you can be Christian there if you pay a tax. A small price to pay to get away from the gays. Lol.

Do you know how many evangelical Christian pastors there are in North America? Just within the relatively small Baptist conference to which my church belongs, there are over four hundred pastors. There are dozens of other Baptist organizations, some much larger than the one to which my church belongs. Add to these all of the other evangelical church pastors in various organizations (and independent church pastors, too) and I'd estimate roughly that there are thirty thousand of them, at least, in North America. And so, even if you could find a hundred examples of the Ted Haggard sort, it would represent only a small fraction of all the Christian pastors that there are.

Yeah, that's fair.

Several. My brother-in-law is homosexual. Why? Does not knowing homosexuals personally mean a person can't observe that they hold parades, and have their own flag, and have extorted a month-long acknowledgement of their sin from the public? If so, how does that work, exactly?

Yes, it could mean that you don't have enough experience with different people. You might make assumptions that are wrong.

I don't see this sort of pastor in the majority among evangelical, Protestant pastors - or anywhere near it - in Canada. And all the American pastors I know aren't like this guy, either. In fact, he stands out precisely because he is a peculiar rarity.

In your opinion, is this how more pastors should conduct themselves?

 

[WIP]

This is great.

Who makes the case who is truly a Christian with these polls.

What is the criteria for a truly regenerated human? Are the people making the polls truly Chrisitan?

I have doubt in man made polls and facts.

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can know it?

God's purpose will not be thwarted. His elect will be saved. This is not even a dispute.

This goes back to, what is the world percentage of truly regenerated people.

10% of the total population?

The many and the few.

It would seem our society reflects this trend as well. We are known by our fruits. Here in the US, Christian moral values are becoming less and less prominent. Sexual immorality, sexual promiscuity, adultery, accepting and embracing homosexual lifestyles, accepting and tolerating violence, theft, and destruction, and so forth are more and more becoming the norm as we change our laws to reflect the moral character of our people. And this is happening despite roughly 63% of us claiming to be Christian when we have a representative form of government.

Paul was not wrong.
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 NKJV

 

[Tenchi]

The fact that he's God and can do anything?

But if that's so, why can't He use men to communicate His truth? He can do anything He wants, right? Why, then, should He have done things in the way you think He should've?

No. I would only be angry if they focused on it and then did nothing about it. As it stands, they just sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn't happen.

Yes, I've thought that quite awful - but very par-for-the-course within Roman Catholicism...

Because I think it's such a stupid thing to worry about.

Okay. Others don't. It's a free country, right? You're not a Christian, so it's no surprise, then, that you see things differently than they do.

Well, you could always move to Saudi Arabia. I'm pretty sure you can be Christian there if you pay a tax. A small price to pay to get away from the gays. Lol.

Actually, sodomy is quite rampant in Muslim countries. A Filipino friend of mine who had lived for nearly a decade in Dubai, told me of non-Arab, male immigrants being taken and gang-raped by Muslims guys. My friend was told before he went to Dubai that the only way he would escape being raped was to have a nice, full beard. Clean-shaven fellows were fair game, apparently. Anyway, Muslims will kill you for being "gay" but if you want to sodomize another dude, it's quite all right. For some reason, the latter isn't as heinous as the former...

Yes, it could mean that you don't have enough experience with different people. You might make assumptions that are wrong.

This didn't actually answer the question I asked you...

In your opinion, is this how more pastors should conduct themselves?

Absolutely not. I think this guy is a kook! He certainly isn't obeying 2 Timothy 2:24-25.

 

[Riven]

But if that's so, why can't He use men to communicate His truth? He can do anything He wants, right? Why, then, should He have done things in the way you think He should've?

He can. But it's probably the worst way to communicate your message to humanity when you have other options. He should have done it my way because then people would know God exists and there can then make up their minds with solid evidence in front of them.

Okay. Others don't. It's a free country, right? You're not a Christian, so it's no surprise, then, that you see things differently than they do.

True enough.

This didn't actually answer the question I asked you...

Could you rephrase the question, please?

Absolutely not. I think this guy is a kook! He certainly isn't obeying 2 Timothy 2:24-25.

That's good to hear and I agree.

 

[Tenchi]

He can. But it's probably the worst way to communicate your message to humanity when you have other options.

But how would you know this better than God? Not being able to take into account all that He does in deciding what He'll do, how can you feel at all confident prescribing a better way for Him to have acted? And what constitutes a better or worse way to communicate? As I pointed out already, if God simply appeared before us in all His power and glory, we'd none of us have any choice but to bend the knee and submit to Him. Choosing to do so freely would be out of the question. But this would mean the end of being able to love Him, which is what He wants from us. God's goal then in interacting with us this side of the grave isn't efficiency but fellowship and to this end He has acted as He has, making Himself plain but not so much so that all freedom to choose Him willingly is eradicated.

 

[Riven]

But how would you know this better than God? Not being able to take into account all that He does in deciding what He'll do, how can you feel at all confident prescribing a better way for Him to have acted? And what constitutes a better or worse way to communicate?

I feel confident enough to say it because holy books are a lousy way to get your message across. Especially given all of the fantastical claims and stories that are in the bible that people are expected to not think critically about.

Then there's the fact that God supposedly punishes people for not believing in him. He loves us so much that he sends his own children to hell for all of eternity, when he could have literally done anything else. What does he get out of torturing people? It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Tenchi]

I feel confident enough to say it because holy books are a lousy way to get your message across.

Based on what criteria? To what end? Do you think you actually understand God's purposes sufficiently to remark on them? I don't. I think you've got virtually no idea what God's plan and purposes are and certainly can't decide the proper course to follow from His all-knowing, timeless, omnipotent vantage point.

Especially given all of the fantastical claims and stories that are in the bible that people are expected to not think critically about.

??? I think critically about them. So have many other Christians. Who says we aren't supposed to?

Then there's the fact that God supposedly punishes people for not believing in him. He loves us so much that he sends his own children to hell for all of eternity, when he could have literally done anything else. What does he get out of torturing people? It doesn't make any sense.

It doesn't make any sense if God is only a God of love and that love is of our own human sort, fouled by ignorance, selfishness and sin. If God is just and holy, as well as loving, then His judgment of sin, of evil, is entirely sensible.

And nowhere in the Bible will you read that God tortures people. Those in hell endure torment, yes, but Scripture never says that this torment is at God's hands who stands over the wicked in hell with a God-sized barbecue fork and rakes them over sulphurous coals. No, there is torment but it is self-derived, a torment of mind (and heart) that the sinner endures having to be alone with himself for all of eternity, his own god forever, never to enjoy the Light and Life of the One True God he despised all of his earthly life.

Also, God does not send His own children to hell. Not all who are made by God are His children. They are His creatures, yes, but not members of His family, joint-heirs with Christ. Those in hell are rebels, enemies of God, who in pride have lifted themselves up against Him, suppressing the truth about Him in unrighteousness, denying the testimony of Creation, their own Moral Sense, and the revelation of God in Christ and the Bible. They have trampled underfoot the precious blood of Christ, despising his sacrifice for them at Calvary, and have followed their own will and way, following after the god they see in the mirror.

Romans 1:18-21
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

John 3:19-20
19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.