Let's talk about homosexuality (again!)

[WIP]

IMHO, if one identifies one's self as gay, then they are already giving in to temptations to be it.

I know without any doubt that I am not even the slightest bit gay. I have zero attraction toward other men. I am heterosexual and I am attracted to females but that does not mean I give in to those temptations. Now if I allow those attractions to go further into the realm of lust, that would be a different story and yes, that too may happen on occasion. I am a heterosexual human male after all. It is because of that sinful tendency that when it happens I must repent and turn to our Lord for forgiveness. It is precisely for this reason that we need our Lord and Savior, the Christ, Jesus.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9 NKJV

 

[Uncle J]

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Then you should probably stop.

 

[Uncle J]

You accused me of imposing my beliefs on others. I have done no such thing. Do I think it would be in your best interest for you to embrace Christianity? Absolutely, 100% without any doubt but I will not impose or require that you do. For one thing, I can't. You're going to do what you're going to do as will others.

Oh, then please accept my apologies. That was not my intent in my post to you.

 

[Tenchi]

I think it's a bit of both. But I don't think it's possible to change someone's sexuality through advertising. That's just nuts. No pun intended.

Well, where are you getting this idea from that it's impossible to change someone's sexuality? Check out the story of Rosario Butterfield, or Becket Cook, or Christopher Yuan. You can find videos of these former homosexuals on YouTube.

Also:

New research on 'conversion therapy' turns LGBT narrative on its head

Twenty-seven states and Washington, D.C., have banned efforts to change sexual orientation, commonly but mistakenly referred to as “conversion therapy,” for minors on the premise that therapies seeking to mitigate or resolve unwanted same-sex attraction are inherently harmful and increase the...

www.wnd.com

https://dailycitizen.focusonthefamily.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/are-people-born-gay.pdf

Are Homosexuals Born that Way?

Is there a “gay gene,” and should it change our view of homosexual behavior if there is?

www.str.org

 

[Riven]

Well, where are you getting this idea from that it's impossible to change someone's sexuality?

I don't know for certain. But I'm pretty sure that you can't.

Check out the story of Rosario Butterfield, or Becket Cook, or Christopher Yuan. You can find videos of these former homosexuals on YouTube.

These people converted to Christianity, did they not? A religion that doesn't allow people to be openly gay. It's far more likely that these people put the religion before their own desires. There are plenty of gay people that suppress their own sexuality outside of Christianity as well. For one reason or another. Usually because it's more socially acceptable to be straight.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I dunno
Back when psychoanalysis was big and homosexuality was not accepted some psychoanalysts reported gay to straight enough for marriage conversions. It stands to reason that Jesus Christ will change some people if it’s His will…

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Then you should probably stop.

For the record, I never bear any false witness against you. I don’t know anything about you. I also can’t bear false witness against God by pretending that homosexuality is a real identity and it’s normal.

 

[Tenchi]

I don't know for certain. But I'm pretty sure that you can't.

If sexuality is biological, congenitally-existing, like eye-color or ear shape, then your certainty about change would be reasonable. But as the research is showing over and over (consider the links I offered you), there has been no concrete biological source for homosexuality, no genetic origin for the behavior, that has been found.

These people converted to Christianity, did they not? A religion that doesn't allow people to be openly gay. It's far more likely that these people put the religion before their own desires.

But this assumes your premise, which is that these people can't change. Contrary to your assumed premise, however, their lives (and a growing number of others, besides) demonstrate that homosexuality is not on par with unchangeable physical features of a human being. If you insulate your assumption from this truth by the rather ad hoc retort that they still want to be homosexual deep-down, then you're forming a kind of unfalsifiable point of view, which always has the effect of blinding you to the truth. If nothing can demonstrate to you that your view is in error, and you are actually in error, you'll never be able to see this, right?

I put God before my desires, not my religion. Being a Christian is, after all, primarily about interacting with my Maker, not merely abiding by a set of religious propositions and rituals. In my experience of genuine (that is, biblical) fellowship with God, I've encountered a radical change of my desires and thinking on the most fundamental level of who I am. As God works in me His will and way (Philippians 2:13), the old, selfish, sinful desires, thoughts and behaviors of my past dissolve, replaced by the life of the Holy Spirit who is conforming me more and more to the truth of God's word and the Person of Jesus Christ. It's a big job he has to do in me, but doing it he is!

One of the things that has marked God's work in me, as opposed to my efforts of self-improvement, is that God brings His awesome, universe-creating power to bear in the changes He enacts within me. This has produced a kind of change that has astonished me because it has not involved the teeth-gritting, stuffing down of my sinful desires and impulses, a frightful, constant wrestling with myself, as was the case in the past. If this is the sort of change God has worked in those former homosexuals I mentioned to you, the change goes all the way down, right to the bottom of who they are. And so, they can say, as the apostle Paul did to the former homosexuals in the church at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

There are plenty of gay people that suppress their own sexuality outside of Christianity as well. For one reason or another. Usually because it's more socially acceptable to be straight.

This is the sort of self-restriction I'd expect from a person who has no access to the heart-transforming, life-changing power of God. It is always what happens when a sinner tries to restrain their sin-nature. When God goes to work on a sinner, though, He deals with the source of sin in the sinner, not just the effects that the source produces (sin). Homosexuality is just one of the many effects, you see, produced by the source of all of a person's sin. Lying, anger, laziness, pride, sexual sin, resentment, anxiety, etc. - these are all just symptoms of a deeper problem: Self in control. When God goes to work on His children, He goes straight to Self, to the "old man," the person we are outside of God's control, and deals with our sin-problem by doing something about Self on the throne of our hearts. No person disconnected from God can benefit from what He does for all of His children in this regard.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I dunno


Homosexual relationships don’t seem to last and they are very very rarely monogamous. I’ve also been aware of a good bit of dude on dude gay relationship violence that the so called progressive people not only ignore but seem to deliberately downplay. This was before I became a Christian. Now…
I’m all for civil rights secular marriage etc. not the issue. The issue from a Christian perspective is how to speak the truth in love and at a larger level…

On this and other issues how will we as Christians deal with an increasingly hostile society?

 

[Uncle J]

I dunno


Homosexual relationships don’t seem to last and they are very very rarely monogamous. I’ve also been aware of a good bit of dude on dude gay relationship violence that the so called progressive people not only ignore but seem to deliberately downplay. This was before I became a Christian. Now…
I’m all for civil rights secular marriage etc. not the issue. The issue from a Christian perspective is how to speak the truth in love and at a larger level…

On this and other issues how will we as Christians deal with an increasingly hostile society?

A suggestion from an outsider....

It's basically what I've been saying all along, i.e., try and understand the difference between saying "we believe it's a sin to be gay" and "we believe it's a sin to be gay, and gays are gross immoral violent people".

The reason society is hostile to y'all isn't because you believe it's a sin to be gay. Rather, it's because you take that next step and engage in hateful rhetoric against gay people. As I noted before, Orthodox Jews and Muslims believe it's a sin to eat pork and shellfish, but society isn't hostile towards them about it, are they? But I'm quite sure if they started public campaigns to demonize people who eat pork and shellfish and deny them basic civil rights, there would be some public/societal backlash.

It really is that simple. If you think it's a sin to be gay, then don't be gay. But when you take that next step and start depicting gay people in hateful ways, you're gonna get public/societal backlash....guaranteed.

Or maybe I can put this in a way that hits a little closer to home....

I'm not a Christian, and if people ask me I simply say "No, I'm not a Christian" and leave it at that. In my experience, most folks respond with "Okay" and that's all there is to it. They don't come away thinking I hate Christians or anything like that.

But if instead I went around saying "No, I'm not a Christian. Christians are pedophiles, child abusers, violent thugs, scam artists, and cons" and in doing so I pointed to cases of pedophilia, child abuse, violence, scams, and cons in Christian churches, you'd probably come away thinking, "Wow, that guy sure hates Christians".

It's exactly the same with how some Christians talk about LGBTQs.

Does that make sense?

 

[WIP]

The reason society is hostile to y'all isn't because you believe it's a sin to be gay. Rather, it's because you take that next step and engage in hateful rhetoric against gay people. As I noted before, Orthodox Jews and Muslims believe it's a sin to eat pork and shellfish, but society isn't hostile towards them about it, are they? But I'm quite sure if they started public campaigns to demonize people who eat pork and shellfish and deny them basic civil rights, there would be some public/societal backlash.

I'll share an experience I had. Our country church was once a member of the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America). One of the things that developed over the years was a growing gay influence. I served as our church council chairperson for four years and every year I attended the annual synodical meetings. One of the hot topics that was on the table was the question of allowing practicing gay persons to serve in leadership positions in the church including pastors and bishops. Of course, those that disagreed with allowing this would express the opposition by quoting from Scripture and explaining that this should not be allowed because to do so implies acceptance and even embracing the practice of gay relationships, which is a sinful practice as expressed in Scripture.

Let's think about this for a second. The issue was with "practicing" gays. First, it is a sin to engage in sexual activity outside the bonds of marriage and despite what the secular laws in this country allow today which were not in place then, that would mean any activity outside the bonds of a marriage between one man and one woman. If they were practicing they were in fact engaged in sinful sexual activity gay or otherwise, period.

Not once in all those times when I attended the meetings did I hear anyone say anything hateful or even suggesting that gays were violent people or using hateful rhetoric. In fact, in most if not all times when the topic was brought up, those in opposition to the gay agenda went out of their way to try and express their position as humbly and lovingly as possible.

On the other hand, no matter how hard they tried, the response from the LTBTQ supporters was quite opposite. They accused them of hating them, not loving them, not wanting them, and so forth. The reality is that if they were truly not wanted, hated, unloved, the church could have excommunicated them but instead the church was trying its best to help them come to grips with their own professed sin.

It was because of this attitude regarding LGBTQ and other issues like Universalism that I experienced for at least four consecutive years that prompted me and other members of our congregation that attended those meetings with me to recommend disassociating our church from the ELCA. After three years of meetings, discussion, and prayer and after even losing some of our own members because we took so long, with unanimous decisions we sadly voted to do just that in 2009.

The truth is, when faced with the truth, it hurts and because we will not embrace and accept active gay lifestyles the gay community lashes out with their own hatred toward us.

It's exactly the same with how some Christians talk about LGBTQs.

I noticed you said "some Christians" do this. This is quite possible for we are not perfect either but in my experience it is only some and not a majority.

Likewise you said this

Christians are pedophiles, child abusers, violent thugs, scam artists, and cons, pedophiles, child abusers, violent, scam artists, and cons.

Should I then likewise assume that is what every non-Christian believes about Christians even though I know that would not be true?

 

[Christ_empowered]

But I really have seen dude on dude violence and the relationships really aren’t monogamous. These things seem to reaffirm scriptural prohibitions on same sex relations.

 

[Uncle J]

I'll share an experience I had. Our country church was once a member of the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America). One of the things that developed over the years was a growing gay influence. I served as our church council chairperson for four years and every year I attended the annual synodical meetings. One of the hot topics that was on the table was the question of allowing practicing gay persons to serve in leadership positions in the church including pastors and bishops. Of course, those that disagreed with allowing this would express the opposition by quoting from Scripture and explaining that this should not be allowed because to do so implies acceptance and even embracing the practice of gay relationships, which is a sinful practice as expressed in Scripture.

Let's think about this for a second. The issue was with "practicing" gays. First, it is a sin to engage in sexual activity outside the bonds of marriage and despite what the secular laws in this country allow today which were not in place then, that would mean any activity outside the bonds of a marriage between one man and one woman. If they were practicing they were in fact engaged in sinful sexual activity gay or otherwise, period.

Not once in all those times when I attended the meetings did I hear anyone say anything hateful or even suggesting that gays were violent people or using hateful rhetoric. In fact, in most if not all times when the topic was brought up, those in opposition to the gay agenda went out of their way to try and express their position as humbly and lovingly as possible.

On the other hand, no matter how hard they tried, the response from the LTBTQ supporters was quite opposite. They accused them of hating them, not loving them, not wanting them, and so forth. The reality is that if they were truly not wanted, hated, unloved, the church could have excommunicated them but instead the church was trying its best to help them come to grips with their own professed sin.

It was because of this attitude regarding LGBTQ and other issues like Universalism that I experienced for at least four consecutive years that prompted me and other members of our congregation that attended those meetings with me to recommend disassociating our church from the ELCA. After three years of meetings, discussion, and prayer and after even losing some of our own members because we took so long, with unanimous decisions we sadly voted to do just that in 2009.

The truth is, when faced with the truth, it hurts and because we will not embrace and accept active gay lifestyles the gay community lashes out with their own hatred toward us.


I noticed you said "some Christians" do this. This is quite possible for we are not perfect either but in my experience it is only some and not a majority.

Likewise you said this

Should I then likewise assume that is what every non-Christian believes about Christians even though I know that would not be true?

What you're describing is mostly internal Christian denominational politics, and without anything to go on other than your account, it's really difficult for me to comment on.

I mean, I could tell you the story about how the church and family I grew up in actively covered up pedophilia, protected the abuser, and attacked anyone who tried to expose what was going on. Is that reflective of Christianity, Christians, and/or Christian churches?

And without anything else to go on but my account, what could you really say about it?

That's why my post that you responded to was specifically about the sort of hateful rhetoric against LGBTQs that's been posted right here in this thread, such as that same-sex couples that appear to be committed and loving are just faking, that they're violent, etc.

If Christians can't talk about how y'all believe it's a sin to be gay without adding in the other stuff, all I can say is....you might as well just accept the societal blow back that will inevitably come your way. Engaging in hate speech tend to have that effect.

 

[Uncle J]

But I really have seen dude on dude violence and the relationships really aren’t monogamous. These things seem to reaffirm scriptural prohibitions on same sex relations.

And you've never seen violence in heterosexual relationships?

Looks to me like you've chosen to just shrug off my suggestions, so again....don't be shocked when society turns on you and history isn't kind.

 

[Hopeful 2]

And you've never seen violence in heterosexual relationships?

Looks to me like you've chosen to just shrug off my suggestions, so again....don't be shocked when society turns on you and history isn't kind.

Who cares about what society or history have to say, now or later.
REAL Christians live with love in our hearts towards all.
If someone's actions will result in their second death, it is our duty to "talk them down from the roof".
Condoning illicit actions, whether drug use, abortion, or adultery between husband and wife, helps nobody.

It is difficult to discuss the works of the "flesh" with somebody who doesn't know what walking in the Spirit is like.
Homosexuality is a work of the "flesh", and its rewards are very short term.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I will say that it wasn’t until after genuine conversion that I could even properly piece together things that had happened and things I had seen in the past. I think the world is full of deception and the lies sink in deeply…
To the point of self deception…

 

[Uncle J]

Who cares about what society or history have to say, now or later.

Apparently not you, which means you can't really complain about how society and history sees you.

REAL Christians live with love in our hearts towards all.
If someone's actions will result in their second death, it is our duty to "talk them down from the roof".
Condoning illicit actions, whether drug use, abortion, or adultery between husband and wife, helps nobody.

You're not being asked to "condone" it. The only thing that's being asked of you is to not engage in hate speech, such as going around depicting LGBTQs in all the hateful ways that we've seen here.

It is difficult to discuss the works of the "flesh" with somebody who doesn't know what walking in the Spirit is like.
Homosexuality is a work of the "flesh", and its rewards are very short term.

And if that's what you believe, then you shouldn't do it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Apparently not you, which means you can't really complain about how society and history sees you.

Correct, on both counts.
But as part of what I live by included loving my neighbor as I love myself, neither society nor history will have anything to castigate me for.

You're not being asked to "condone" it. The only thing that's being asked of you is to not engage in hate speech, such as going around depicting LGBTQs in all the hateful ways that we've seen here.

I agree, and hate speech is not an option for Christians.
In fact it shows non-Christians parading as Christians.
They just give the true church a bad name.

And if that's what you believe, then you shouldn't do it.

"Difficult" doesn't mean "impossible".
Believers got through to me while I was still a nonbeliever.
Everyone starts out as an unbeliever.

 

[Uncle J]

Correct, on both counts.
But as part of what I live by included loving my neighbor as I love myself, neither society nor history will have anything to castigate me for.

That's good to hear.

I agree, and hate speech is not an option for Christians.
In fact it shows non-Christians parading as Christians.
They just give the true church a bad name.

Who is or isn't a "true Christian" isn't something I'm interested in. What I see are a lot (and I mean a lot) of people who identify as Christians, attend church, and read the Bible engaging in hate speech against LGBTQs. I also see the damage it's done to the "Great Commission" and the public face of the faith.

"Difficult" doesn't mean "impossible".
Believers got through to me while I was still a nonbeliever.
Everyone starts out as an unbeliever.

Okay.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

A suggestion from an outsider....

It's basically what I've been saying all along, i.e., try and understand the difference between saying "we believe it's a sin to be gay" and "we believe it's a sin to be gay, and gays are gross immoral violent people".

The reason society is hostile to y'all isn't because you believe it's a sin to be gay. Rather, it's because you take that next step and engage in hateful rhetoric against gay people. As I noted before, Orthodox Jews and Muslims believe it's a sin to eat pork and shellfish, but society isn't hostile towards them about it, are they? But I'm quite sure if they started public campaigns to demonize people who eat pork and shellfish and deny them basic civil rights, there would be some public/societal backlash.

It really is that simple. If you think it's a sin to be gay, then don't be gay. But when you take that next step and start depicting gay people in hateful ways, you're gonna get public/societal backlash....guaranteed.

Or maybe I can put this in a way that hits a little closer to home....

I'm not a Christian, and if people ask me I simply say "No, I'm not a Christian" and leave it at that. In my experience, most folks respond with "Okay" and that's all there is to it. They don't come away thinking I hate Christians or anything like that.

But if instead I went around saying "No, I'm not a Christian. Christians are pedophiles, child abusers, violent thugs, scam artists, and cons" and in doing so I pointed to cases of pedophilia, child abuse, violence, scams, and cons in Christian churches, you'd probably come away thinking, "Wow, that guy sure hates Christians".

It's exactly the same with how some Christians talk about LGBTQs.

Does that make sense?

Pfft, don't bother to play victim here. It's the over the past ten years it's been the LGBTQ lobby who's persecuting Christians and corrupting churches, not the other way around.