Leviticus 11

[iLOVE]

Are you saying that, as a Christian, you do not have to keep to 'the big ten'? If you do, then you appear by definition 1 to have instantly fallen out of grace with God. If you do not have to abide by OT laws, does that give you freedom to break 'The Ten Commandments'?

If I have to abide by all 600 OT laws then I am meant to be going around killing people for all sorts of silly reasons. Is that what you think I should be doing - or would that indeed be 'silly'?

I believe that a little more thought is needed before claiming that Christians do not have to keep to The Ten Commandments.

When I return from Church today I will give you some basic bible study.

 

[Classik]

Well, there's a surprise - Classik avoiding giving an answer yet again.

Why bother to make an assertion and then completely fail to back it up? You know the relevant words - "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

Do you have anything on-topic to say?

You didn't understand me! You asked a question and I said there are certain things you cannot know. His highness, can you tell me the reason man has eye lashes? Can you tell me the whys of two ears, hands etc on man and not four?

Can you tell me why God made 9 planets and not 500? If you can answer this question then you can answer the whys of God. If you can't...then you simply are man and can't know into the immortal. Besides, did your team lose a game?;)

 

[Deborah13]

I think that God made each one of as individuals and some have inquiring minds. If we had no one who would ask questions then were would we be? If we believe that the Bible (the original texts) is inspired by God then we must believe that God allows questions or there would be a lot missing and thus no teaching, no revelation, etc. How would anyone be saved if they didn't ask questions. The Holy Spirit draws and some say, is that you God, do you really exist, etc.

Asking why God calls Himself YHWH may lead someone to study the Hebrew letters to find that each letter is a picture of something, some direct point to the Messiah, the Christ. It's pretty amazing how God did this. At least if someone is questioning there is a chance that they will receive revelation knowledge of what the scriptures say (knowledge/understanding) from the Holy Spirit (spiritual eyes and ears).
Like Job said, paraphrased, "before I had just heard (from others) but now you have opened my spiritual eyes to see".

 

[Aardverk]

To have dominion over does not mean 'eat' although it can include 'eat'. I would suggest the God never addressed 'eatting all the animals' until He 'banned' certain ones. I see a third of the question as being answered.

Genesis 1:28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.†29Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.â€[NIV]​

There are two basic ways of interpreting this. One is that we were only ever meant to be vegetarians i.e. "They will be yours for food".

The other interpretation is that we can eat anything we like. I really don't mind which interpretation you choose but clearly the "beasts, birds and creatures" were not vegetarian despite these words saying that they had "every green plant for food". A lion, for example, will not live long on green plants.

I suspect that the latter is the most plausible interpretation plus, Adam not only ate meat but he sacrificed it as well. Of course that may just have been Eve's evil influence again. ;)

It was much later that certain animals were declared unclean and much later again that they were regarded as clean again. I am just trying to understand why the changes of heart OR which is the error.

 

[Aardverk]

You didn't understand me! You asked a question and I said there are certain things you cannot know..............

That is simply evasion Classik. You said: "............There are some 'whys' of God that should be left the way they are...that if you try interpreting them you could put yourself into trouble or bring condemnation upon yourself."

Your words were very clear and not open to misinterpretation. If you are not prepared even to try to justify your assertion, it probably would have been better just to have kept quiet.

 

[Aardverk]

I think that God made each one of as individuals and some have inquiring minds. If we had no one who would ask questions then were would we be? If we believe that the Bible (the original texts) is inspired by God then we must believe that God allows questions or there would be a lot missing and thus no teaching, no revelation, etc. How would anyone be saved if they didn't ask questions. The Holy Spirit draws and some say, is that you God, do you really exist, etc..............

Well said!

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt". Clarence Darrow.

 

[Deborah13]

Personally I believe that before the fall there were no predators (don't know how the dinos fit in) but in Revelation I believe if speaks of during the 1000 yr reign that there will be no evil so the child will sit on the asp nest without being bit, etc. Of coarse this could be metaphoric.
Not something to debate over.

 

[Aardverk]

When I return from Church today I will give you some basic bible study.

I await them with bated breath

Seriously, do we really need someone to explain to us what the words in The Bible mean? If so, who shall we trust and what denomination are they? There are so many differing interpretations that an unbiased choice of 'expert' is impossible. There is no one true church.

 

[Classik]

That is simply evasion Classik. You said: "............There are some 'whys' of God that should be left the way they are...that if you try interpreting them you could put yourself into trouble or bring condemnation upon yourself."

Your words were very clear and not open to misinterpretation. If you are not prepared even to try to justify your assertion, it probably would have been better just to have kept quiet.

What didn't you understand? My statement is clear.

Before you launch another missile kindly answer the questions I asked. Do not avoid it. Why do you have two ears and not 3? Etc

 

[Aardverk]

Personally I believe that before the fall there were no predators (don't know how the dinos fit in) but in Revelation I believe if speaks of during the 1000 yr reign that there will be no evil so the child will sit on the asp nest without being bit, etc. Of coarse this could be metaphoric.
Not something to debate over.

Vegetarian snakes?

 

[Aardverk]

What didn't you understand? My statement is clear. ...............

I didn't understand your reason for saying, "There are some 'whys' of God that should be left the way they are...that if you try interpreting them you could put yourself into trouble or bring condemnation upon yourself." That is why I very clearly asked you to explain.

Is it related to the topic in any way? If it is not then I think you should move on and stop blatantly trolling.

 

[Classik]

By trying to know, you have assumed certain things which might not be correct. When you publish such thoughts...don't you think some people could accept them and could be led astray??? That is an interpretation

 

[Aardverk]

By trying to know, you have assumed certain things which might not be correct. When you publish such thoughts...don't you think some people could accept them and could be led astray??? That is an interpretation

That is an argument for staying silent and for never thinking.

We were not put on this earth, with enormous brains, never to think for ourselves. That is an opinion.

Take a look back through the 'Classik book of forum topics' and you will see some outrageous subjects that could easily lead fools astray - but that didn't stop you raising them just for a bit of fun. Pots and kettles spring to mind.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

All one has to do is read why the parenthetical has been added to Mark 7:19 (if it really is a later addition to the passage--I personally don't know if it is or not) to see that it's an acceptable and reasonable conclusion to come to.

"18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? 19 For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.”" (Mark 7:18-19 NIV1984)

Now, if anyone does not want to accept this they can either submit to the laws of uncleanness and acknowledge their guilt in this area and seek the forgiveness of God and be saved, or willfully reject it and wait for the judgment of God on the Day of Wrath.

I personally go with the plain words of Jesus. No one is literally made unclean by the forbidden foods of Leviticus 11. Those prohibitions were given for another reason. We can see how they, like so many other things in the OT, were illustrations that we can see and understand with our natural minds to help us understand harder to see and understand spiritual truths about things that make us unclean before God.

Don't make yourself (spiritually) unclean, and thus unfit for manifest fellowship with God, through fellowship with (spiritually) dead, bottom-feeding, and predatory creatures of this world. They rob you of life and cut you off from the manifest goodness of God. Let's all remember that as we once again consume the slop that robs us of our (spiritual) lives that our cable companies and Internet companies (FB comes to mind, lol) feed us.

 

[Deborah13]

Let me try to explain my thinking on issues like this with an earthly example.

As adults with the knowledge of what sugar can do to a child's teeth not to mention their actions we don't allow them to decide for themselves which or how much sugars are OK (what source the sugars come from. The child must just obey. (which can lead to an discussion of rules that lead to disobediance by just looking at the rule with out knowledge of grace) The child does not truely understand so they get upset at the parent. They may ask, what's a cavity? What's hyperactive? Why? Why? Why? (reminds me of Captain Hook in Hook). Sometimes we just have to say "because I said so". As they mature they receive knowledge that allows them to make good choices for themselves. It's growing up.

I see the OT laws as a means God used to teach the people in obedience, we need to remember they didn't have the indwell of the Holy Spirit, to bring them to a place where they could make good decisions, number, one it's allows best to trust God. What does the law do for us today, it leads us to the knowledge that we have been disobedient and that we need a Savior. The more we study and pray the more the Holy Spirit can reveal truth to us until it risse up as a revelation of what God is trying to teach us through His word. Then we can make better decisions based on His word. Sanctification, growing up, walking in the Spirit.

After 4000 yrs or so and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we shouldn't need 613 laws to tell us it's best to obey God. And yet we still need a Savior, a Holy Spirit, and GRACE and faith.

 

[Classik]

That is an argument for staying silent and for never thinking.

We were not put on this earth, with enormous brains, never to think for ourselves. That is an opinion.

Take a look back through the 'Classik book of forum topics' and you will see some outrageous subjects that could easily lead fools astray - but that didn't stop you raising them just for a bit of fun. Pots and kettles spring to mind.

Glad to know there are no fools. Glad to know I asked questions and CHRISTIANS TRIED TO RESPOND...and they really helped.

You have not answered my question, chairman.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Does anyone think that 'everything is accomplished' yet?

And do you think not one jot or tittle has disappeared from the law, yet?

Jesus gave two conditions for something being able to 'disappear' out of the law. And we know one of them happened because simple logic and reason tells us that by the fact that something really did disappear from the requirements of the law! (Are you following the logic?) And not just a jot or a tittle 'disappeared' but a very large portion of the law. A portion that no longer has to be 'kept' because of Jesus having fulfilled those requirements through his death.

When Jesus fulfilled (met, kept, satisfied) the requirements for sacrifice for sin through his own body he provided one of the two conditions that must be met in order for something as little as a jot or tittle to 'disappear' from the law--fulfillment.

This being true, that some things really have 'disappeared' from the law', it's impossible to use Matthew 5:17-18 as some kind of defense that God's Church is still bound to every letter of the law including the laws of uncleanness. It's a terribly flawed argument.

 

[Deborah13]

What didn't you understand? My statement is clear.

Before you launch another missile kindly answer the questions I asked. Do not avoid it. Why do you have two ears and not 3? Etc

Ahh...God likes even numbers, two by two, one man one woman,???
One of those that we may ask God when we meet Him. Yes

 

[Aardverk]

Let me try to explain my thinking on issues like this with an earthly example.

As adults with the knowledge of what sugar can do to a child's teeth not to mention their actions we don't allow them to decide for themselves which or how much sugars are OK (what source the sugars come from. The child must just obey. (which can lead to an discussion of rules that lead to disobediance by just looking at the rule with out knowledge of grace) The child does not truely understand so they get upset at the parent. They may ask, what's a cavity? What's hyperactive? Why? Why? Why? (reminds me of Captain Hook in Hook). Sometimes we just have to say "because I said so". As they mature they receive knowledge that allows them to make good choices for themselves. It's growing up.

I see the OT laws as a means God used to teach the people in obedience, we need to remember they didn't have the indwell of the Holy Spirit, to bring them to a place where they could make good decisions, number, one it's allows best to trust God. What does the law do for us today, it leads us to the knowledge that we have been disobedient and that we need a Savior. The more we study and pray the more the Holy Spirit can reveal truth to us until it risse up as a revelation of what God is trying to teach us through His word. Then we can make better decisions based on His word. Sanctification, growing up, walking in the Spirit.

After 4000 yrs or so and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we shouldn't need 613 laws to tell us it's best to obey God. And yet we still need a Savior, a Holy Spirit, and GRACE and faith.

You raise some interesting ideas there Deborah. I think the analogy with a child and sugar would be great if the banned animals were actually bad for you but would I be right in assuming that you mean that the OT is rather like army basic training where the grunts are expected to follow instructions unquestioningly? If so, I do disagree but it is an interesting thought. Another simple analogy is that people in the OT were 'children' but after Christ we had the ability to reason and think as adults. Again, I have to disagree but I like the ideas.

 

[Ryan]

Those words in parenthesis have clearly been added by someone as explanations. For example, Jesus' words in 19 were not clearly un-banning certain foods so someone has added in a 'clarification'. If we contrast these fairly vague words with the 100% clear banning in Leviticus, it does strike me that the un-banning in Mark 7 and anywhere else is simply an interpretation and not a clear instruction.

Here is a cut and paste from the other thread if you hadn't seen it. Pretty much an Interlinear Bible and concordance and 20 minutes of time will clearly show the parentheses insertion is an interpretation, not a translation. And a wrong interpretation of that:

"the entire verse does not even speak to kosher foods as we know they were living in a world where "food" was only biblical, dietary fair. The Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus, throughout his ministry, of anything. They were trying to trap him with the tradition of washing their hands which was not biblical. If Jesus declared swine or any other unclean animals now clean, aye carumba, everything after Mark 7:19 would look completely different as Jesus would be changing the Law that he spoke to Moses which would have been heretical.

Mark 7:19 "because it doth not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and into the drain it doth go out, purifying all the meats." - Taken from the Youngs Literal Translation

Mark 7:19 "19 G3754 Because G1531 it entereth [G5736] G3756 not G1519 into G846 his G2588 heart G235 , but G1519 into G2836 the belly G2532 , and G1607 goeth out [G5736] G1519 into G856 the draught G2511 , purging [G5723] G3956 all G1033 meats?" - KJV with the concordance value attached for referencing.

If you follow along with the concordance, this passage is talking about waste management so to speak as the draught is the bowels. This ties into the earlier passage that the Pharisees were giving them a hard time about washing their hands and making themselves impure. But Jesus was talking if there was any impurities on their hands, the human body will take and flush those impurities out. "

Summary: Leviticus = crystal clear, everything else = stretched interpretation.

You are correct. The passages that so called overturn the dietary instructions are extremely stretched out of context.

So, why did God ban those foods? Did He really give us dominion over all animals, then ban some of them, then un-ban everything? Any ideas why He would do such a thing?

The answer is he didn't. If he would change his mind about what is best for me once, what makes me think he wouldn't change his mind about something else. If it was detestable for me once, it always will be. If not, then passages such as Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" cannot hold any water. And we know Jesus is God who spoke his instructions to Moses.