Leviticus 11

[Ryan]

And if you want to argue like an apologetic, their is a "circle of willis" in the brain. Non-kosher animals have arteries running up through the vertebrae into the brain. Whereas kosher animals the arteries merge with the carotid artery. When a kosher animal is slaughtered properly, it feels no pain as the artery is severed and doesn't send the pain signal to the brain. If you try to slaughter a pig in a similar fashion, although the carotid is cut, the artery from the spine is still attached thus sending pain signals and the animal suffers throughout. The only way to avoid this, is to completely sever the head in one swoop.

So the argument I have heard that God cares about all life, and cares dearly about all creatures he has created, clean or unclean. He has provided food for us to sustain life, and in doing so, has provided animals for us. So God has made provisions within the structure of the body where if it is slaughtered properly, will not die and suffer in order for us to sustain live. You can argue that angle, but in the end it's just a commandment I try and follow to the best of my ability. I wise man once said "It's not hard to obey God's commandments/instructions. What's hard is living in a world surrounded by those who don't."

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Here is a cut and paste from the other thread if you hadn't seen it. Pretty much an Interlinear Bible and concordance and 20 minutes of time will clearly show the parentheses insertion is an interpretation, not a translation. And a wrong interpretation of that:

"the entire verse does not even speak to kosher foods as we know they were living in a world where "food" was only biblical, dietary fair. The Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus, throughout his ministry, of anything. They were trying to trap him with the tradition of washing their hands which was not biblical. If Jesus declared swine or any other unclean animals now clean, aye carumba, everything after Mark 7:19 would look completely different as Jesus would be changing the Law that he spoke to Moses which would have been heretical.

Mark 7:19 "because it doth not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and into the drain it doth go out, purifying all the meats." - Taken from the Youngs Literal Translation

Mark 7:19 "19 G3754 Because G1531 it entereth [G5736] G3756 not G1519 into G846 his G2588 heart G235 , but G1519 into G2836 the belly G2532 , and G1607 goeth out [G5736] G1519 into G856 the draught G2511 , purging [G5723] G3956 all G1033 meats?" - KJV with the concordance value attached for referencing.

If you follow along with the concordance, this passage is talking about waste management so to speak as the draught is the bowels. This ties into the earlier passage that the Pharisees were giving them a hard time about washing their hands and making themselves impure. But Jesus was talking if there was any impurities on their hands, the human body will take and flush those impurities out. "


You are correct. The passages that so called overturn the dietary instructions are extremely stretched out of context.



The answer is he didn't. If he would change his mind about what is best for me once, what makes me think he wouldn't change his mind about something else. If it was detestable for me once, it always will be. If not, then passages such as Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" cannot hold any water. And we know Jesus is God who spoke his instructions to Moses.

Ryan, with your line of thinking, then we must also keep the Sabbath exactly as the Bible says.
Is that what you believe also?

 

[Aardverk]

Oh Ryan - such clarity, sense and reason.

The trouble is, neither of us are capable of understanding The Bible simply because we both said, 'Christian:No.' At least, I think that's how the argument goes.

 

[Ryan]

Ryan, with your line of thinking, then we must also keep the Sabbath exactly as the Bible says.
Is that what you believe also?

I know where you are going with this, and I will give my sucker answer as a yes, and await your response.

 

[Classik]

Ahh...God likes even numbers, two by two, one man one woman,???
One of those that we may ask God when we meet Him. Yes

Interesting!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I know where you are going with this, and I will give my sucker answer as a yes, and await your response.

I would imagine it is your tradition that is why you keep the Sabbath.

But is there any reason beyond that?

 

[Deborah13]

You raise some interesting ideas there Deborah. I think the analogy with a child and sugar would be great if the banned animals were actually bad for you but would I be right in assuming that you mean that the OT is rather like army basic training where the grunts are expected to follow instructions unquestioningly? If so, I do disagree but it is an interesting thought. Another simple analogy is that people in the OT were 'children' but after Christ we had the ability to reason and think as adults. Again, I have to disagree but I like the ideas.

Can we remove sugar and replace it with banned animals? No My point was that we don't always understand why God said what He said or did what He did. Sometime, we may, in future but sometimes we will just have to wait. Without questioning, No. But it is not for us to say that God has to reveal every thing to us. He is the Creator and He will decide.
So now we see how we can come full circle back to what Classik said....we can get too involved in trying to understand the things of God that are not clear to us (not saying that they are not clear to someone else) and neglect the things that are quite clear. Love God and Love thy neighbor.

I would not call them 'children' and us not 'children'. The difference is that all of us have the ability to receive the Savior's gifts to us and thus the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to teach us God's ways and how to walk in His ways. We all need to receive the milk of the Gospel but then to move on to the meat. To mature.

 

[Ryan]

I would imagine it is your tradition that is why you keep the Sabbath.

But is there any reason beyond that?

The answer is yes, but maybe this convo should go elsewhere as we are talking about piggies and chickies here.

 

[Sinthesis]

Why were some foods banned by God? (Reference to Genesis 1:26 would be useful)
When did He un-ban them? (Without vague references to a New Covenant please)
What sort of 'bird' is a 'bat'? (References to 'inspired' would be appreciated)
What sort of winged insects walk on four legs? (Ditto)

Do you eat anything mentioned in Leviticus 11 and are you quite sure you should be? (With reference to Matthew 5:18)

The primary purpose of the law was to differentiate 'God's People' from the 'Gentiles'. Were there secondary health benefits? Perhaps, but they are not applicable to salvation. Think of them as dietary circumcision. These laws only ever applied to Israel, never the Gentiles. They were lifted when the law was fulfilled by Christ and the Jewish heaven and earth passed, along with that generation. What differentiates people now is spiritual rather than legal. Some people's spiritual faith is weak, so they seek to strengthen it by grasping at legal straws.

The bible is not an inspired zoology textbook.

Leviticus 11 does not influence what I will or will not eat.

 

[Ryan]

Any Christian believer that keeps any part of the OT laws instantly falls out of grace with God. Furthermore you reject what Jesus did on the cross. The law was meant only for the Jewish up until the cross. If you break just one law, you break all 600 plus of them and you are promise the lake of fire.

WOW!!!. So as a believer in Jesus, the penalty of death that Jesus paid for me as a result of my sins which I deserve to die, and having received the free gift of salvation for calling upon his name, confessing and repenting of my sins, is now in jeopardy because the instructions he (Jesus/God) gave to Moses is now evil and I would lose my salvation? Yikes! I am immediately going on an all bacon and shrimp diet to get my salvation back. Oh wait, is that not then salvation by works?

Hmmm...let's think this out. God gave to Moses a set of instructions and teachings to guide his choosen and redeemed people so all will go well with them. They didn't follow them, so it didn't go well with them. Then they turned back and it went well with them. Then they turned their back on the Lord, and it didn't go well with them. Repeat several times and the prophets always saying to the people to repent and turn back to the Lord and return back to his commandments and teachings. Now, Jesus came and seemingly changed many of his laws. Then Paul seemingly said follow God's laws and you will have fallen from grace. But wait, in the Millenium we will be new creatures and what law is going to be written on our hearts? The Law/Torah of course. So chronologically it's Torah/Law good, then it's Torah/Law bad, but in the Millenium it's Torah/Law good again. I'm confused. Can I lose my salvation from not eating pork? May God have mercy on me.

 

[Deborah13]

And if you want to argue like an apologetic, their is a "circle of willis" in the brain. Non-kosher animals have arteries running up through the vertebrae into the brain. Whereas kosher animals the arteries merge with the carotid artery. When a kosher animal is slaughtered properly, it feels no pain as the artery is severed and doesn't send the pain signal to the brain. If you try to slaughter a pig in a similar fashion, although the carotid is cut, the artery from the spine is still attached thus sending pain signals and the animal suffers throughout. The only way to avoid this, is to completely sever the head in one swoop.

So the argument I have heard that God cares about all life, and cares dearly about all creatures he has created, clean or unclean. He has provided food for us to sustain life, and in doing so, has provided animals for us. So God has made provisions within the structure of the body where if it is slaughtered properly, will not die and suffer in order for us to sustain live. You can argue that angle, but in the end it's just a commandment I try and follow to the best of my ability. I wise man once said "It's not hard to obey God's commandments/instructions. What's hard is living in a world surrounded by those who don't."

Are you talking about an artery or a nerve?

You must live in a fairly large city to have the availability of fresh kosher foods, meats, etc. Do you prepare cook your own meats in kosher vessels?
I'm glad I'm free from these laws. I don't like to cook as it is, my family might have to find a kosher restrauant or eat packaged kosher!

 

[Ryan]

Are you talking about an artery or a nerve?!

Go to page 243 here http://books.google.ca/books?id=T1A5m925ECsC&pg=PA243&dq=circle+of+willis+kosher&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CGL8UJXAJYmEjAKt2YDgDA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=circle%20of%20willis%20kosher&f=false and it explains it in a bit more detail. My physiological knowledge is singing head and shoulders knees and toes, knees and toes, knees and toes...
If you google "cirlce of willis kosher" there is more information elsewhere.

You must live in a fairly large city to have the availability of fresh kosher foods, meats, etc. Do you prepare cook your own meats in kosher vessels?
I'm glad I'm free from these laws. I don't like to cook as it is, my family might have to find a kosher restrauant or eat packaged kosher!

Nope small city. There is a difference between the man made rabbinical kosher laws, and the biblical dietary laws. We do the best we can and really haven't changed much. Instead of rare steak, it's well done, no bacon, shrimp, etc. Really hasn't been that much of a change. There are some who go to extremes and won't even eat soy bacon bits. That's ridiculous. If bacon comes with my burger, I just take off the bacon and eat the rest. Others are more rigid. Just do the best with what you got, and in the end God sees your heart and intent.

 

[Deborah13]

WOW!!!. So as a believer in Jesus, the penalty of death that Jesus paid for me as a result of my sins which I deserve to die, and having received the free gift of salvation for calling upon his name, confessing and repenting of my sins, is now in jeopardy because the instructions he (Jesus/God) gave to Moses is now evil and I would lose my salvation? Yikes! I am immediately going on an all bacon and shrimp diet to get my salvation back. Oh wait, is that not then salvation by works?

Hmmm...let's think this out. God gave to Moses a set of instructions and teachings to guide his choosen and redeemed people so all will go well with them. They didn't follow them, so it didn't go well with them. Then they turned back and it went well with them. Then they turned their back on the Lord, and it didn't go well with them. Repeat several times and the prophets always saying to the people to repent and turn back to the Lord and return back to his commandments and teachings. Now, Jesus came and seemingly changed many of his laws. Then Paul seemingly said follow God's laws and you will have fallen from grace. But wait, in the Millenium we will be new creatures and what law is going to be written on our hearts? The Law/Torah of course. So chronologically it's Torah/Law good, then it's Torah/Law bad, but in the Millenium it's Torah/Law good again. I'm confused. Can I lose my salvation from not eating pork? May God have mercy on me.

WOW and YIKES !! Yes, some grace people who understand justification is not by works do not understand that the person who is doing the law does not mean that person believes they are justified by the law. Personally this gives all GRACE without works preachers and believers a bad name and causes me to have to explain that the preachers I listen to are GRACE but they do not teach one is free to sin without consequences.
Such as if you do the law (say each kosher, observe a Saturday sabbath) that it is the same as doing these things in order to be justified and saved. And that if you do things you have fallen from grace. I my studies I feel like the only thing a Jew could do that would be to return to shedding animal blood as a sacrifice for sin, in fact as a gentile that would clinch it. That is a rejection of the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross. As a gentile if I were to no longer believe that He my Savior and there is, maybe, or don't believe in salvation at all it would be the same thing.

Hope this made sense, I'm half listening to the football game. Sorry. Superbowl may be the battle of the Angry Birds.

 

[Deborah13]

Go to page 243 here http://books.google.ca/books?id=T1A5m925ECsC&pg=PA243&dq=circle+of+willis+kosher&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CGL8UJXAJYmEjAKt2YDgDA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=circle%20of%20willis%20kosher&f=false and it explains it in a bit more detail. My physiological knowledge is singing head and shoulders knees and toes, knees and toes, knees and toes...
If you google "cirlce of willis kosher" there is more information elsewhere.



Nope small city. There is a difference between the man made rabbinical kosher laws, and the biblical dietary laws. We do the best we can and really haven't changed much. Instead of rare steak, it's well done, no bacon, shrimp, etc. Really hasn't been that much of a change. There are some who go to extremes and won't even eat soy bacon bits. That's ridiculous. If bacon comes with my burger, I just take off the bacon and eat the rest. Others are more rigid. Just do the best with what you got, and in the end God sees your heart and intent.

Thanks for the link, although you explained quite well. Thanks for not jumping on me, I worded my post incorrectly, I believe you are not UNDER the law either. Bless your heart.

 

[Nick]

I deleted a few posts on page 1 that I consider were attacking the inspired Word of God (or those who responded to such posts). I see the discussion has improved since then, but a warning that if it doesn't, trying to diminish the authority or the God-breathed status of the Bible will not be tolerated. Thanks.

 

[wonby1]

I've just recently read Leviticus. I decided to do it because I had already read it once a long time ago, and what a hard read it was! I decided to read it again for that very reason, because I never really refer to it nor does anyone else.

After another read, a couple of things strike me. On the one hand, many things they were commanded to do actually is medically beneficial. For example, don't drink blood and don't eat fat. Those two things right there have obvious medical benefits. Also, many of the animals that were bound were considered to be "unclean". I notice that many of these animals, if not all of them, seemed to be just that, unclean. They lie low to the ground, or sea bed, and slither and craw around, much like a roach on your counter top.

In fact, the sanitary and dietery laws helped keep Jews alive in Europe during the Black Plague. Europeans then saw this and targeted them because they were not dying like they were. So they rounded them up and killed them, charging them that they had made a deal with the devil.

So why are the laws revoked in the NT? I think the major change was that the focus in the NT had changed. Specifically, the Jewish nation needed to survive and flourish so that they could give birth to the savior of the world. Once that occurred such dietery and sanitary laws waned in importance.

Is it still a good idea not to drink blood and eat fat? Sure, but your physical health is not nearly as important as your spiritual health. I would say that the Mosaic laws are still instructive for the Christian, even if they are not banned.

As was said by Paul in 1 Corinthians 13, the Mosaic law was a schoolteacher of sorts. We see through a glass dimly.

 

[Classik]

I've just recently read Leviticus. I decided to do it because I had already read it once a long time ago, and what a hard read it was! I decided to read it again for that very reason, because I never really refer to it nor does anyone else.

After another read, a couple of things strike me. On the one hand, many things they were commanded to do actually is medically beneficial. For example, don't drink blood and don't eat fat. Those two things right there have obvious medical benefits. Also, many of the animals that were bound were considered to be "unclean". I notice that many of these animals, if not all of them, seemed to be just that, unclean. They lie low to the ground, or sea bed, and slither and craw around, much like a roach on your counter top.

In fact, the sanitary and dietery laws helped keep Jews alive in Europe during the Black Plague. Europeans then saw this and targeted them because they were not dying like they were. So they rounded them up and killed them, charging them that they had made a deal with the devil.

So why are the laws revoked in the NT? I think the major change was that the focus in the NT had changed. Specifically, the Jewish nation needed to survive and flourish so that they could give birth to the savior of the world. Once that occurred such dietery and sanitary laws waned in importance.

Is it still a good idea not to drink blood and eat fat? Sure, but your physical health is not nearly as important as your spiritual health. I would say that the Mosaic laws are still instructive for the Christian, even if they are not banned.

As was said by Paul in 1 Corinthians 13, the Mosaic law was a schoolteacher of sorts. We see through a glass dimly.

Interesting post Welcome to CF.net

 

[Nick]

I have deleted several posts that were off topic. Let's keep football out of a thread on eating laws.

I'm moving this thread to Apologetics & Theology.

totopic

 

[John 8:32]

Any Christian believer that keeps any part of the OT laws instantly falls out of grace with God. Furthermore you reject what Jesus did on the cross. The law was meant only for the Jewish up until the cross. If you break just one law, you break all 600 plus of them and you are promise the lake of fire.

Honestly, this is a ridiculous reply, you are telling me that I fall out of Grace with God if I keep this law?

Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

So, to be in God's grace, we must all be murderers?

 

[John 8:32]

All one has to do is read why the parenthetical has been added to Mark 7:19 (if it really is a later addition to the passage--I personally don't know if it is or not) to see that it's an acceptable and reasonable conclusion to come to.

"18 “Are you so dull?†he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? 19 For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.â€" (Mark 7:18-19 NIV1984)

Now, if anyone does not want to accept this they can either submit to the laws of uncleanness and acknowledge their guilt in this area and seek the forgiveness of God and be saved, or willfully reject it and wait for the judgment of God on the Day of Wrath.

I personally go with the plain words of Jesus. No one is literally made unclean by the forbidden foods of Leviticus 11. Those prohibitions were given for another reason. We can see how they, like so many other things in the OT, were illustrations that we can see and understand with our natural minds to help us understand harder to see and understand spiritual truths about things that make us unclean before God.

Don't make yourself (spiritually) unclean, and thus unfit for manifest fellowship with God, through fellowship with (spiritually) dead, bottom-feeding, and predatory creatures of this world. They rob you of life and cut you off from the manifest goodness of God. Let's all remember that as we once again consume the slop that robs us of our (spiritual) lives that our cable companies and Internet companies (FB comes to mind, lol) feed us.

And if you read the context you find that the subject is not clean and unclean, it is the ceremonial washings concocted by the Pharisees...

Mar 7:1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
Mar 7:2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
Mar 7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
Mar 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

The issue here is not the command to avoid unclean meat, it was a concocted tradition of the Pharisees that was being viewed as far more important than the commands of God, they did this...

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.