Limited atonement !

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus was talking to non believers from the quote you used. When speaking to His disciples he spoke this way...

How can non-believers, the unregenerated, do his teaching at all when it is likely that you believe we cannot do so without the Holy Spirit? Think about it. You are saying Jesus told the unregenerated to do as he teaches on their own power with no help and after that, they will know the truth?

(Joh 8:31-32) So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly My disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

What’s the difference? Jesus was saying to anyone listening, in my view, that if they actually DO what he teaches, their minds will come to know truth from untruth.

Besides, it's a bit self defeating to use Scripture to try to prove God's Word is not fully needed

We cannot do the teaching of Jesus without his word. That’s our source of knowing it.

You asked how one is to know which understanding or theology of scripture is the truth. I am showing you how. If the Word of God, the teaching of Jesus, lives in a persons whole being, that is, it influences their choices, they see the truth from untruth. This we see in the book of Acts at times.

 

[crossnote]

How can non-believers, the unregenerated, do his teaching at all when it is likely that you believe we cannot do so without the Holy Spirit? Think about it. You are saying Jesus told the unregenerated to do as he teaches on their own power with no help and after that, they will know the truth?

Much of the teachings of Jesus was designed to show us our inadequacy, thus revealing our need for a Savior.

What’s the difference? Jesus was saying to anyone listening, in my view, that if they actually DO what he teaches, their minds will come to know truth from untruth.

If that what floats your boat, fine. Personally,...it sinks mine...

Romans 3:10-18 (KJV) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

You asked how one is to know which understanding or theology of scripture is the truth. I am showing you how. If the Word of God, the teaching of Jesus, lives in a persons whole being, that is, it influences their choices, they see the truth from untruth. This we see in the book of Acts at times.

We also see it here...

1 John 2:20 (KJV) But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

But I think we are wayyy off the topic of this thread...Limited Atonement.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Much of the teachings of Jesus was designed to show us our inadequacy, thus revealing our need for a Savior.

So are you now saying that Jesus was telling people they’d know the truth if they keep his teaching knowing they can’t do that anyway and so can never come to know the truth? I don’t believe that common thought, btw. Isn’t it easy just to think Jesus meant what he said?

If that what floats your boat, fine. Personally,...it sinks mine...

Romans 3:10-18 (KJV) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Does that describe everyone you know….mouths full of cursing, killing people all the time, destruction around them… does that describe your coworkers and neighbors?

My boat is to apply the test of life, real life, to theological positions and see if they describe reality. I jettison those that don’t and seek truth. As a result, after some decades, I can discern with time, truth from nontruth as necessary in positions. My boat has become quite free.

We also see it here...

1 John 2:20 (KJV) But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

But I think we are wayyy off the topic of this thread...Limited Atonement.

Limited Atonement is a doctrine that one can know the truth about. Of course one can be politically correct and insist no one knows the truth, but the boat will be rocking all the time.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Romans 3's description of sinful humanity appears to be hyperbole in order to drive the point home.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Romans 3's description of sinful humanity appears to be hyperbole in order to drive the point home.

Actually he was describing Israel at a point in time in their history. Might still have been hyperbole but he certainly wasn’t describing all of mankind all the we time. Some men in the bible are described as “righteous” so there’s a logical problem there.

 

[crossnote]

So are you now saying that Jesus was telling people they’d know the truth if they keep his teaching knowing they can’t do that anyway and so can never come to know the truth? I don’t believe that common thought, btw. Isn’t it easy just to think Jesus meant what he said?

I think you get confused not distinguishing who Jesus is addressing, whether unbelievers, believers, disciples etc. You seem to like to argue just to argue. I hope everything is ok with you.Good-Bye,

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I think you get confused not distinguishing who Jesus is addressing, whether unbelievers, believers, disciples etc. You seem to like to argue just to argue. I hope everything is ok with you.Good-Bye,

Sigh! Again the ad hominem “you are [insert uncomplimentary adjective]” response.

You asked how we can know which theology is true or something similar. I told you how according to Jesus. It is the only way. I can verify it works brilliantly. More than this I cannot do.

If ANY man keep (do) my teaching, he will know the truth (not stuck in mere opinion) and the truth will set him free. We do not have all truth as that would take many more years than we live, but we can know the bit we have is true, that is, it matches what is outside of our heads. But it requires doing his teaching. Too few are willing to pay that price.

 

[brightfame52]

Is Universal Atonement True? (1)​

A number of readers have asked about the extent or purpose of the atonement, that is, For whom did Christ die? This question is especially important because many evangelicals today believe that Jesus shed His blood for everyone head for head excluding no one. This view is preached in many pulpits and widely promoted in books and pamphlets. But this position must be analysed very carefully. Is it really true that Jesus gave His life to save absolutely everybody without exception? Let us ask some questions of this view.

(1) How could the Triune God, who is possessed of infinite wisdom and understanding, send His dearly beloved Son to ransom from sin and Hell those who were already in Hell, a place from which the damned have no way out (cf. Luke 16:26)?

(2) God sent His Word to only one nation, the Israelites, during the Old Testament age, and “He hath not dealt so with any [other] nation” (Ps. 147:19-20; Acts 14:16). Moreover, Jehovah does not send the gospel in the New Testament age to everybody either (cf. Acts 16:6-8; Matt. 24:14). Why then would God send Christ to die for those who never hear the gospel and hence could never be saved (Rom. 10:14, 17)?

(3) The Bible teaches that Judas was “the son of perdition” (John 17:12), that is, a man wholly characterized by perdition, ruin and eternal destruction. Did Jesus really die for Judas when He knew that the Old Testament had already prophesied that Judas would betray Him (Ps. 41:9) and “go to his own place,” namely Hell (Acts 1:25; Ps. 109; John 17:12)?

(4) Scripture states that God hated Esau (Rom. 9:13) but everywhere Christ’s atonement is spoken of as the fruit of God’s love (e.g., John 3:16; 15:13; Rom. 5:8; I John 4:10). How then could God send Christ in His infinite, eternal and boundless love (Eph. 3:18-19) to die for Esau whom He hated? Rev. Stewarthttps://cprc.co.uk/covenant-reformed-news/crnnovember2002/#universal

 

[brightfame52]

Find a scripture in the OT that says someone was born again. No one find a scripture that says there is no scripture on a subject.

You wont be able to find a scripture that promotes such a falsehood. Of course men were born of God before Christs time. Many of the OT Prophets were born of God and had Christ dwelling in them 1 Pet 1:10-12

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

The Spirit of Christ was in them, just as it is in the NT Saints Rom 8:9

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You wont be able to find a scripture that promotes such a falsehood. Of course men were born of God before Christs time. Many of the OT Prophets were born of God and had Christ dwelling in them 1 Pet 1:10-12

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

The Spirit of Christ was in them, just as it is in the NT Saints Rom 8:9

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If it was so common in the OT, how come Nicodemus had never heard of it??

 

[rogerg]

I’m still not clear of your answer. It is a sincere question, take your time to explain.

”How can God judge as guilty, those whom he has not predestined to faith in His Son?"

Maybe this will help answer your question:

All ever born, were born under the power of law. The law judges, and by so doing, brings sin. Christ's offering removed those whom God had chosen for salvation from under the law. For they alone, has Christ's offering has ended the law's power, its judgment, and sin. Without law, there can be no judgment. Those not covered by Christ's offering, remain under the law and will therefore be judged accordingly, found guilty, and punished. By rights, this outcome, should have been imposed upon all. One's faith does not save, instead, faith is as a result (or fruit) of salvation -- it accompanies it as a gift. God gives salvation solely to those whom He as so chosen for it, and He makes no apology for so doing, because no one of themselves deserves it.

First: salvation given
Second: hearing the gospel through spiritual ears - from salvation.
Third: by the hearing of the gospel, coming to a faith/trust/knowledge in Christ.
All God's work, none ours.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Rom 6:14 KJV] 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[1Co 15:56-57 KJV] 56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Rom 8:1-3 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 

[crossnote]

God gives salvation solely to those whom He as so chosen for it, and He makes no apology for so doing, because no one of themselves deserves it.

I believe God predestines us even as sons.Eph 1:5 and not just as workmanship. But even though I believe in election/predestination etc., I can't get over the hump of...

”How can God judge as guilty, those whom he has not predestined to faith in His Son?"

All I can do is stand on what God says clearly about predesttination etc., and let my human reasoning/objections be subservient to God's Word.

 

[brightfame52]

The Limited atonement by the blood of Christ is confirmed by scripture because His death and its benefits are according to covenant and for a specific people, Spiritual Israel, Gods elect from amongst the nations. Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Now the many is the house of Israel Heb 8:10-12

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. This verse 12 corresponds with the remission of sins in Matt 26:28 so we know its the same covenent and its benefits.

 

[brightfame52]

Limited atonement is the blessed truth that God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ became incarnate in order to satisfy all the conditions of the salvation of God's elect, sheep, His Church and, thereby, acquire for them all grace here and all glory hereafter, an eternal redemption Heb 9:12. Christ's finished work, His bloody sacrifice of His sinless humanity upon the altar of His infinite Deity, was the culmination of His whole work of redemption. This included His incarnation, obedience, and death, as the Representative and Substitute for chosen sinners. He was obedient unto death, even the death of the cross Phil. 2:6-8. Christ's entire satisfaction, the merit of His whole work of mediation, is called the Righteousness of God. This is the only ground of salvation, and it is revealed in the Gospel to those it was specifically for, the elect Rom 1:16-17.Definitely , Christ's righteousness is the entire merit of His whole work of redemption. It was brought in and established by the obedience unto death which Christ Himself accomplished as a Substitute/Surety for His people. Rom 5:19 Christ's righteousness alone demands the salvation of every sinner whom He represented (God's elect).8

 

[brightfame52]

The complications one has when they deny limited atonement and insist Christ died for all without exception which is false:

First, if Christ's death is universal, in and of itself, it cannot be effectual to any of its objects unless you believe the equally false doctrine that all without exception shall be saved by Christs death, the heresy of universalism.

It logically means the sinner makes the supreme difference in heaven or hell instead of the atonement of Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

"The Extent of Christ's Absolute Satisfaction is established by the inseparable connection between the gift of Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit as these two gifts, the most excellent which God has bestowed on us, are always in Scripture joined together as cause and effect, they must be of equal extent and go together; so that the Son is not given to acquire salvation for any others than those to whom the Spirit was given to apply the salvation procured. No reason can be assigned why the gift of the Son should be more extensive than the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is plain that the Holy Spirit is given to none but the elect.." - Francis Turretin

Scripture to collaborate this blessed truth

Gal 3:13-14

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 4:4-6

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Those who Christ died for with Him God gives all things Rom 8:32

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Rom 5:5

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 9

 

[brightfame52]

There are ample amount of scripture that indicate that the extent of Christs Redemptive Death was limited to Gods Elect/Sheep !

Matt 20:28

28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

The many are the chosen seed of God that Isaiah mentions Isa 53:10-11

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.9

 

[brightfame52]

There are ample amount of scripture that indicate that the extent of Christs Redemptive Death was limited to Gods Elect/Sheep !

Jesus again says whom He specifically died for:

Jn 10:11,15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

The good Shepherd lays down His life in behalf of the sheep. Are all men the sheep of Christ? The honest answer is no, for most men do not know Christ, and Christ says that His sheep know Him John 10:14. and Christs knows His Sheep, but some He declares He never knew Matt 7:23 Further, Jesus specifically told the Jews who did not believe in Him, “but you do not believe because you are not my sheep” John 10:26. Notice that in contrast with the idea that we believe and therefore make ourselves Christ’s sheep, Jesus says that they do not believe because they are not His sheep! Whether one is of Christ’s sheep is the Father’s choice (John 6:37, 8:47), not the sheep’s!

 

[rogerg]

“but you do not believe because you are not my sheep” John 10:26.

I'd forgotten about that verse - it really speaks volumes about belief. Thanks for the reminder

 

[brightfame52]

Scripture is clear that Christ died for and solely loved His Church, His Spiritual Bride Eph 5:2,25-27

2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.