Living without sin ?

[Hopeful]

Nope, that’s your opinion. Denying what the scriptures so plainly say, isn’t going to change them. You must reconcile all the scriptures that pertain to this subject, and not just “cherry pick” through them, in order promote your doctrine of sinless perfection, whereby you claim our physical body became free from sin at water baptism.

It is written in 1 John 2:3..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."
The sinners you say are in the light, God, do not "know Him".
That means they are of the group mentioned in 1 John 1:6..."If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"
Man can't walk in darkness and God at the same time.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1:7-2:2
John says plainly “our sins“.

• And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins,

John says that if he or others says that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar.

• If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
So you are claiming John and those he was writing to had not been water baptized, and that “we” and “us” refer to unregenerate sinners and unbelievers?
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Confessing sin, and being forgiving is for believers, born again Christians who have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
Unbelievers do not have this promise. For them to be forgiven and saved, they must believe and therefore obey the Gospel, in which they repent, turn to God.
JLB

 

[JLB]

It is written in 1 John 2:3..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."

Absolutely. Amen.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

• Keeping His commandments is how we remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

• This is how we walk in love; loving God and loving our neighbor.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3



My point that I have been making is if we should sin, we can confess our sin and be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness, because we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.


Your claim that born again Christians, don’t have the ability to confess their sin and be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness is totally and completely unbiblical.


My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

• these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.
• And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins,

You have not yet come to grips with the fact that there is more to sin than just murdering someone, or committing adultery or stealing...


Again as I have mentioned before, there are things you don’t even realize you do that are sin.


But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin. Romans 14:23

• for whatever is not from faith is sin.

JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

It is written in 1 John 2:3..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."
The sinners you say are in the light, God, do not "know Him".
That means they are of the group mentioned in 1 John 1:6..."If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"
Man can't walk in darkness and God at the same time.

it seems some people think they can continuously switch from dark to light over and over again - and they are comforted by the opportunity to repent and be cleansed over and over again - which for them seems to be their only hope

your experience of how to walk in the Spirit aka in the light aka successfully overcome temptation aka avoid sin is powerful for those who have been practicing walking in the Spirit and inspires such people to believe the power of God is fully able to accomplish this as per scriptures to that point

perhaps baby steps in understanding and practicing holiness is what is needed for those who can't accept what you are saying - they have no personal experience with what you are talking about and can't at this point conceive of a life of avoiding sin successfully?

my experience matches yours and your words are so timely for many of us - but your experience alarms others who are deeply comforted by the chance to continuously repent of darkness/sin/walking in the flesh and be cleansed over and over until perhaps they learn to walk in the Spirit by doing the things you said in the op

 

[Hopeful]

Absolutely. Amen.
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

• Keeping His commandments is how we remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

• This is how we walk in love; loving God and loving our neighbor.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

My point that I have been making is if we should sin, we can confess our sin and be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness, because we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

And the point I have been making is that if one sins, they are foreign to all your supplied verses.
They are not keeping His commandments, not abiding in Him, not abided in by Him, not walking in love, and of course not walking in the light...which is God.
Those that cater to the flesh have not repented of sin.
They have not crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
They have not put on Christ or renewed their minds.
They serve sin and not God.

Your claim that born again Christians, don’t have the ability to confess their sin and be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness is totally and completely unbiblical.

Those born of God's seed cannot commit sin, as it is written in 1 John 3:9.
God's seed cannot bring forth adulterers, liars, thieves, or sinners of ay sort.
They who commit sin are the children of the devil, as 1 John 3:10 says.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

• these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.
• And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins,

If any man manifests he is a child of the devil, he has an a Advocate to turn him into a Christian reborn of God's seed

You have not yet come to grips with the fact that there is more to sin than just murdering someone, or committing adultery or stealing...
Again as I have mentioned before, there are things you don’t even realize you do that are sin.

Just as John writes in 1 John 5:17..."All unrighteousness is sin:..."
And as James writes in James 1:14-15..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
Every sin requires temptation, lust, enticement, and conception of the act.
All sin is on purpose, as there is no accidental sin.

But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin. Romans 14:23

• for whatever is not from faith is sin.

JLB

Amen to that.
Sinners will be condemned.
Thank God for scripture like 1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
God knows how to deliver those who worship Him from sin.

 

[Hopeful]

it seems some people think they can continuously switch from dark to light over and over again - and they are comforted by the opportunity to repent and be cleansed over and over again - which for them seems to be their only hope

your experience of how to walk in the Spirit aka in the light aka successfully overcome temptation aka avoid sin is powerful for those who have been practicing walking in the Spirit and inspires such people to believe the power of God is fully able to accomplish this as per scriptures to that point

perhaps baby steps in understanding and practicing holiness is what is needed for those who can't accept what you are saying - they have no personal experience with what you are talking about and can't at this point conceive of a life of avoiding sin successfully?

my experience matches yours and your words are so timely for many of us - but your experience alarms others who are deeply comforted by the chance to continuously repent of darkness/sin/walking in the flesh and be cleansed over and over until perhaps they learn to walk in the Spirit by doing the things you said in the op

Thanks for the edification.
Some think they are still living OT lives; like the Jews who sinned, atoned, sinned, atoned, sinned, atoned, with no recourse for freedom from sin.
They seem to be unaware that Jesus conquered sin while in the skin and bones and by our being made one with Him, can enjoy that same victory over sin.

Live free !

 

[Truthfrees]

Thanks for the edification.
Some think they are still living OT lives; like the Jews who sinned, atoned, sinned, atoned, sinned, atoned, with no recourse for freedom from sin.
They seem to be unaware that Jesus conquered sin while in the skin and bones and by our being made one with Him, can enjoy that same victory over sin.

Live free !

so true but you know before you i have never heard anyone talk about this grace and power of God

you are basically breaking new ground

i resonated with what you said right from the start but the opposite teaching has such universal acceptance that people find it hard to believe what you are saying

honestly what you have taught about HOW to live in the Spirit is so powerful and works as scripture states yet unheard of in all denominations i know of

thanks for sharing the steps on how to live in the Spirit

may God give you the words to share that will help people take the small steps necessary to eventually see for themselves this will work for whosoever wills

God is amazing and all He has provided for life and Godliness works extremely well if it is believed and received and acted on

God bless you

 

[Hopeful]

so true but you know before you i have never heard anyone talk about this grace and power of God

you are basically breaking new ground

i resonated with what you said right from the start but the opposite teaching has such universal acceptance that people find it hard to believe what you are saying

honestly what you have taught about HOW to live in the Spirit is so powerful and works as scripture states yet unheard of in all denominations i know of

thanks for sharing the steps on how to live in the Spirit

may God give you the words to share that will help people take the small steps necessary to eventually see for themselves this will work for whosoever wills

God is amazing and all He has provided for life and Godliness works extremely well if it is believed and received and acted on

God bless you

I guess the first "baby step" is just showing it is possible to live according to Godliness.
Those drawn to God will realize it, when they see/hear about it.
Hopefully, they will be attracted to it like a moth to a candle flame.
In the mean time, God will support and guard those who rely on Him.

 

[JLB]

it seems some people think they can continuously switch from dark to light over and over again - and they are comforted by the opportunity to repent and be cleansed over and over again - which for them seems to be their only hope

your experience of how to walk in the Spirit aka in the light aka successfully overcome temptation aka avoid sin is powerful for those who have been practicing walking in the Spirit and inspires such people to believe the power of God is fully able to accomplish this as per scriptures to that point

perhaps baby steps in understanding and practicing holiness is what is needed for those who can't accept what you are saying - they have no personal experience with what you are talking about and can't at this point conceive of a life of avoiding sin successfully?

my experience matches yours and your words are so timely for many of us - but your experience alarms others who are deeply comforted by the chance to continuously repent of darkness/sin/walking in the flesh and be cleansed over and over until perhaps they learn to walk in the Spirit by doing the things you said in the op

Actually the only thing alarming is his blatant twisting of scripture, whereby confessing our sin and being cleansed of all unrighteousness is not for born again Christians, but is referring to unbelievers.


Walking in the Spirit is something I have promoted for years on this forum. Keeping His commandments is how we remain in Christ.


I am against sin, and breaking His commandments as that leads to eternal damnation.


Im also against promoting heresy, which is sin; specifically a work of the flesh.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21





Teaching that our physical body becomes sinless, at water baptism, is one such false teaching.


Teaching that true Christians have no need to confess their sin because the are sinless, is also false teaching.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

• Do you believe “we” and “us” and “our” refers to John and the Christians he is writing to or do you believe these pronouns refer to unbelievers?

Hopeful claims it refers to unbelievers; people who are not Christians, because true Christians are sinless, and have no need to ever confess their sin.


Since you are a Moderator and represent this Forum, then I ask you to please answer this question.





JLB

 

[JLB]

And the point I have been making is that if one sins, they are foreign to all your supplied verses.
They are not keeping His commandments, not abiding in Him, not abided in by Him, not walking in love, and of course not walking in the light...which is God.
Those that cater to the flesh have not repented of sin.
They have not crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
They have not put on Christ or renewed their minds.
They serve sin and not God.

Those who do not confess there sin, and receive forgiveness and cleansing certainly will become lost.

Those who serve sin, certainly do not serve God.

Here is the teaching of Christ on this matter —


“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17

• But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

If the brother who sins against another brother after being confronted, refuses to repent, and turn away from his sin, then he is to be considered as a heathen; a sinner, someone who is separated from Christ.


If a born again baptized Christian sins, they can confess their sin and be forgiven, and cleansed of all unrighteousness so that they can indeed continue in fellowship and continue to walk in the light as He is in the light.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10


Your “doctrine” of sinless perfection makes Him out to be a liar.





JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Hopeful
I posted something earlier (post 3) that I believe most overlook.

But first, we need to understand what sin is, from the perspective of God.

In your own words, what is sin?

 

[Hopeful]

Those who do not confess there sin, and receive forgiveness and cleansing certainly will become lost.
Those who serve sin, certainly do not serve God.
Here is the teaching of Christ on this matter —

But you call them Christians?

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17

• But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

If the brother who sins against another brother after being confronted, refuses to repent, and turn away from his sin, then he is to be considered as a heathen; a sinner, someone who is separated from Christ.

Good teachings for the OT.
It can be used in the NT, but not in the same way.

If a born again baptized Christian sins, they can confess their sin and be forgiven, and cleansed of all unrighteousness so that they can indeed continue in fellowship and continue to walk in the light as He is in the light.

Those born of God's seed cannot commit sin. (1 John 3:9)
Fruit from God cannot bear liars, thieves, or any other kind of wicked behavior.
The devil's seed can though.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

A man walking in darkness-sin, cannot say he has no sin.
A man who is walking in God can, as there is no sin in God...the light.

Your “doctrine” of sinless perfection makes Him out to be a liar.

Only to those hoping to introduce sin into the light.

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful
I posted something earlier (post 3) that I believe most overlook.

But first, we need to understand what sin is, from the perspective of God.

In your own words, what is sin?

As John said it best in 1 John 5:17..."All unrighteousness is sin:..."
I agree.

 

[JLB]

But you call them Christians?

Yes, brother in Christ.

Just as Jesus did.


“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. Matthew 18:15




JLB

 

[JLB]

Good teachings for the OT.
It can be used in the NT, but not in the same way.

Matthew 18:15-17 is in the New Testament in my Bible.

 

[stovebolts]

As John said it best in 1 John 5:17..."All unrighteousness is sin:..."
I agree.

Yes, all unrighteousness is sin. But again, many fail to see what righteousness is. I would also add that Gods righteousness is bound with Gods grace.

When we look at sin, it is not always about the things we do, such as steal, lie, cheat and other obvious bad behaviors. Sin is also about the behaviors we fail to exhibit, like patience, kindness etc. It can even be when we see a need and it is within our means to fulfill that need and we don’t. Other times it can be our own blindness to the needs of others and because we fail to see the need, we fail to provide our means to Aleve the need.

This is most apparent in Leviticus 23 which is couched in religious ways. We are told to leave the corners of our fields for the poor, aliens, widows etc. In other words, God has blessed us to be a blessing to those in need, and it’s more than just providing food, it’s an entire way... the way of God.

Our flesh is always at war with our Spirit and the Spirit of God and as long as we live in these human bodies, the two will always be at war. While we can grow and mature in Christ, we all sin. That doesn’t make us sinners though, it simply makes us human. That being said, we are children of God and through His grace, righteousness runs through us.

Nobody is without sin except Jesus. And even you will sin, whether you realize it or not. Many sins are committed in ignorance. Saul loved the Lord, yet he persecuted Christ. Saul was ignorant and through Gods righteousness, He offered Grace to Saul, and realizing his sin, Saul turned from his sin. That is to say he stopped persecuting Christ and started advocating for Christ.

You see, repentance isn’t just stopping bad behavior, it’s putting on a new behavior that generates fruit in the Kingdom of God.

We all will sin, even you. It’s what we do with that sin when we realize we’ve sinned. 1 John 1:9 addresses this for starters. John goes on to say that we all sin, and that’s because John understands many of us are ignorant. Thanks be to God for His righteousness which is bound in grace.

But woah to the person who knowingly rejects Gods grace. It is those who store up Gods wrath for the day of judgment.

 

[Truthfrees]

I guess the first "baby step" is just showing it is possible to live according to Godliness.
Those drawn to God will realize it, when they see/hear about it.
Hopefully, they will be attracted to it like a moth to a candle flame.
In the mean time, God will support and guard those who rely on Him.

what is your experience on fasting and prayer in creating a strong walk in the Spirit?

what would you say fasting does to curb the flesh and promote the Spirit?

 

[JLB]

what is your experience on fasting and prayer in creating a strong walk in the Spirit?

what would you say fasting does to curb the flesh and promote the Spirit?

I agree, fasting and prayer.

Praying in the Spirit.

 

[stovebolts]

All sin is on purpose, as there is no accidental sin.

Was Eves sin the same as Adams sin?

 

[stovebolts]

amen

theology often confuses people and divides us

walking with God helps us live a life pleasing to Him

probably we should be talking to and about God rather than speaking against others

God bless you

My theology is a bit deeper than that.

David was a man after Gods own heart, yet David was an adulteress and a murderer among many other sinful behaviors, such as ordering a census etc.

I think some people might, and I say might because I am only speaking about a subset of Christians, and not all Christians. I think that some Christians view God as a tyrant waiting to strike us with a lightning bolt at each opportunity. That’s not the God I know, and it’s not the grace I know.

The God I know looks at our heart. While David committed many sins, including murder, it’s how David responded to his short comings when his evil deeds were exposed. While God holds us accountable for our sins, he doesn’t condemn us. Actually, God sits on a throne of grace and wants us to come to him.

If our God is a wrathful God void of grace, then we live in fear of him. If we are in fear, then we try to hide our sin, regardless of how small.

It is good to live a life free of sin. We should all strive to live a life free of sin. But as I’ve stated earlier, we live in ignorance of so many things we should be doing but don’t do. This too can be sin. And God treats sin in ignorance differently than sin that is willfully committed.

So it is that as we grow in the Lord, we begin to realize our ways are not always Gods ways. Walking in the light, which we are commanded to do is to say we are to live our lives as Jesus lived his. The more we live this lifestyle, the better our lives become because the way of Jesus sets us free from not only our sin, but the sins of others that may have been bound upon us.

As we mature in Christ, we realize our sins that were done in ignorance. We are all a bit ignorant. When our sins are brought into the light, we ought not be ashamed or fearful to bring those sins to our Lord.

Anyone who says they are without sin is a liar, and there is no truth in them. They contradict Gods word. Sin doesn’t always lead to death and it’s not always a point of condemnation. Sometimes, like Solomon our sin can lead to wisdom and help us relate to others with compassion and the ability to save others. Nothing is wasted with God and it all works to the good, for those who live God.

Jesus was the only man who walked on this earth who was without sin. We are commanded to follow Jesus and walk as Jesus walked. That means we need to know Jesus, and know him intimately.

 

[JLB]

I believe Jesus conquered sin while in the flesh, and I believe He gave us all we need to partake in that victory over sin, the flesh, the devil, and death.

Yes, amen.

It certainly wasn’t a sinless body, though.


It’s a born again new nature empowered by the Spirit, which gives us power over the sin in our flesh, and the devil.


As Paul stated this to baptized Christians —


Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13




JLB