Living without sin ?

[Hopeful]

Yes, brother in Christ.

Just as Jesus did.


“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. Matthew 18:15
JLB

He wasn't talking to Christians, but Jews.
My "brothers" were reborn of God's seed and cannot commit sin...just like 1 John 3:9 says.

 

[Hopeful]

Matthew 18:15-17 is in the New Testament in my Bible.

There wouldn't be anyone reborn of God for a few more years after Jesus said those words to the Jews.

 

[JLB]

He wasn't talking to Christians, but Jews.
My "brothers" were reborn of God's seed and cannot commit sin...just like 1 John 3:9 says.

Sorry sir but Jesus was referring to brothers in Christ; the Church.


“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:15-17


Jesus is teaching how do deal with brothers in Christ, Christians who sin.


He goes on to teach how many times we are to forgive someone.






Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Matthew18:21-22




JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, all unrighteousness is sin. But again, many fail to see what righteousness is. I would also add that Gods righteousness is bound with Gods grace.

When we look at sin, it is not always about the things we do, such as steal, lie, cheat and other obvious bad behaviors. Sin is also about the behaviors we fail to exhibit, like patience, kindness etc. It can even be when we see a need and it is within our means to fulfill that need and we don’t. Other times it can be our own blindness to the needs of others and because we fail to see the need, we fail to provide our means to Aleve the need.

This is most apparent in Leviticus 23 which is couched in religious ways. We are told to leave the corners of our fields for the poor, aliens, widows etc. In other words, God has blessed us to be a blessing to those in need, and it’s more than just providing food, it’s an entire way... the way of God.

Our flesh is always at war with our Spirit and the Spirit of God and as long as we live in these human bodies, the two will always be at war. While we can grow and mature in Christ, we all sin. That doesn’t make us sinners though, it simply makes us human. That being said, we are children of God and through His grace, righteousness runs through us.

Nobody is without sin except Jesus. And even you will sin, whether you realize it or not. Many sins are committed in ignorance. Saul loved the Lord, yet he persecuted Christ. Saul was ignorant and through Gods righteousness, He offered Grace to Saul, and realizing his sin, Saul turned from his sin. That is to say he stopped persecuting Christ and started advocating for Christ.

You see, repentance isn’t just stopping bad behavior, it’s putting on a new behavior that generates fruit in the Kingdom of God.

We all will sin, even you. It’s what we do with that sin when we realize we’ve sinned. 1 John 1:9 addresses this for starters. John goes on to say that we all sin, and that’s because John understands many of us are ignorant. Thanks be to God for His righteousness which is bound in grace.

But woah to the person who knowingly rejects Gods grace. It is those who store up Gods wrath for the day of judgment.

As you referred to the "flesh" as if it had some kind of magical power over the reborn, let us start from that part.
My flesh was killed with Christ at my water baptism into Him and into His death, burial, and resurrection.
Rom 6:6 says it most succinctly..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Gal 5:24 repeats the message..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
Col 2:11-12 clarifies it even more..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
So the basis of your whole POV is flawed from its beginning.

 

[Hopeful]

what is your experience on fasting and prayer in creating a strong walk in the Spirit?

what would you say fasting does to curb the flesh and promote the Spirit?

Fasting is the best way to show your skin and bones that the mind has control, and not the flesh...in all matters of life.
Once one realizes his control over the bodies urges to eat and drink, (or anything else you want to fast from for a while-TV, media, dessert), one can delve much deeper into God's word.
It helps us kinda "read between the lines" of God's word as your mind assumes control, and gets stronger in relation to the flesh..
Prayer must be a regularly scheduled time as well as an ongoing, all day, conversation with God.
Christians can't "live" without it.
I hope that helps.

 

[Hopeful]

Was Eves sin the same as Adams sin?

The same.
They both disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit.
Eve disobeyed first.

 

[Edward]

Philippians 3:11-14
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.../

 

[stovebolts]

As you referred to the "flesh" as if it had some kind of magical power over the reborn, let us start from that part.
My flesh was killed with Christ at my water baptism into Him and into His death, burial, and resurrection.
Rom 6:6 says it most succinctly..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Gal 5:24 repeats the message..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
Col 2:11-12 clarifies it even more..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
So the basis of your whole POV is flawed from its beginning.

Wow, I’ve never heard of that interpretation on baptism before. The biggest flaw I see in your assertion is probably the most obvious... your still living in a body of flesh and you will still die a physical death because of sin

Paul spoke on Baptism in chapter 6 of Romans, and his writing style in Romans can be viewed as a spiral where he builds levels of knowledge and reflects back upon them. I would like to pull a verse from chapter 8.

Romans 8:10 NIV
But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.

In Chapter 6 we know that we have died, and rose new. But not in our flesh for Paul states clearly that our body will die because it is subject to sin. Our Spirit, however has been born again (through Baptism) because as Paul states in Chapter 6, we have been United with Christ. We are His bride, and Baptism is meant as our union.

It is dangerous to string together random verses out of context as you’ve done. Our bodies still struggle against sinfulness, which is why Paul also writes:

2 Corinthians 10:5 NIV
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Paul, writing to Christians tells them that every thought must be taken captive and made obedient to Christ. This applies to each and everyone of us. Why? Because our flesh can entice us into sin.

 

[stovebolts]

The same.
They both disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit.
Eve disobeyed first.

1Timothy 2:14 NIV
And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

This verse tells us that their sins were not the same. Eves sin was a sin done in ignorance because she was deceived. Paul states clearly that Adam was not deceived. Instead, Adam willfully disobeyed.

Each sin is treated differently.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.

Here Paul credits death and sin as coming into the world through Adam. Now, this takes discernment. It was Eve who sinned first, so why does death ( the heavier consequence ) come through Adam, and not Eve? It is because Adam willfully sinned while Eve was deceived.

This was my earlier point. None of us are without sin. We are ignorant and deceived. (Some apparently are deceived into thinking can live sin free aftear we are born again) As we mature in Christ and realize our sin, we don’t need to be fearful of God when the deception is lifted in and we don’t have to be drug down by guilt. God wants us to be set free from that guilt and wants to lift that burden.


Hebrews 4 NIV

Jesus the Great High Priest​

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest(S) who has ascended into heaven,[f](T)Jesus the Son of God,(U) let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.(V) 15 For we do not have a high priest(W) who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are(X)—yet he did not sin.(Y) 16 Let us then approach(Z) God’s throne of grace with confidence,(AA) so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

 

[Truthfrees]

Fasting is the best way to show your skin and bones that the mind has control, and not the flesh...in all matters of life.
Once one realizes his control over the bodies urges to eat and drink, (or anything else you want to fast from for a while-TV, media, dessert), one can delve much deeper into God's word.
It helps us kinda "read between the lines" of God's word as your mind assumes control, and gets stronger in relation to the flesh..
Prayer must be a regularly scheduled time as well as an ongoing, all day, conversation with God.
Christians can't "live" without it.
I hope that helps.

amen - i find your experience and pov on scripture helpful - it has expanded my understanding of things i had wondered about

fasting - i find my body stops misbehaving in all ways because it is trying to stay alive by metabolizing body fat

i find my spirit rejoices in God's presence and word and my mind decides this whole process is so cool it wants to fast more often

God bless you

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, amen.
It certainly wasn’t a sinless body, though.

A sinless body (Jesus) was crucified, buried, and resurrected from the dead.
You seem to be following a different Son of God than I do.
No wonder you can't grasp the idea of freedom from sin

It’s a born again new nature empowered by the Spirit, which gives us power over the sin in our flesh, and the devil.

How come you can't have that power?

As Paul stated this to baptized Christians —
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

Obey and live.
Disobey and suffer the second death.
Paul doesn't command the impossible...thank God.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13.

You keep posting verses that preach the message of freedom from sin.
Thanks.

Philippians 3:11-14
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.../

That which Paul had yet to attain was the resurrection of the dead. (v 11)
He reiterates that particular perfection in Phil 3:21..."Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

I will also continue Paul's thought with verse 15..."Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."

Paul, and others, were indeed perfect: a different perfection available to men before the resurrection of the dead.
A perfection of sinlessness.

 

[Truthfrees]

I agree, fasting and prayer.

Praying in the Spirit.

amen

 

[Truthfrees]

My theology is a bit deeper than that.

David was a man after Gods own heart, yet David was an adulteress and a murderer among many other sinful behaviors, such as ordering a census etc.

I think some people might, and I say might because I am only speaking about a subset of Christians, and not all Christians. I think that some Christians view God as a tyrant waiting to strike us with a lightning bolt at each opportunity. That’s not the God I know, and it’s not the grace I know.

The God I know looks at our heart. While David committed many sins, including murder, it’s how David responded to his short comings when his evil deeds were exposed. While God holds us accountable for our sins, he doesn’t condemn us. Actually, God sits on a throne of grace and wants us to come to him.

If our God is a wrathful God void of grace, then we live in fear of him. If we are in fear, then we try to hide our sin, regardless of how small.

It is good to live a life free of sin. We should all strive to live a life free of sin. But as I’ve stated earlier, we live in ignorance of so many things we should be doing but don’t do. This too can be sin. And God treats sin in ignorance differently than sin that is willfully committed.

So it is that as we grow in the Lord, we begin to realize our ways are not always Gods ways. Walking in the light, which we are commanded to do is to say we are to live our lives as Jesus lived his. The more we live this lifestyle, the better our lives become because the way of Jesus sets us free from not only our sin, but the sins of others that may have been bound upon us.

As we mature in Christ, we realize our sins that were done in ignorance. We are all a bit ignorant. When our sins are brought into the light, we ought not be ashamed or fearful to bring those sins to our Lord.

Anyone who says they are without sin is a liar, and there is no truth in them. They contradict Gods word. Sin doesn’t always lead to death and it’s not always a point of condemnation. Sometimes, like Solomon our sin can lead to wisdom and help us relate to others with compassion and the ability to save others. Nothing is wasted with God and it all works to the good, for those who live God.

Jesus was the only man who walked on this earth who was without sin. We are commanded to follow Jesus and walk as Jesus walked. That means we need to know Jesus, and know him intimately.

all through scripture we are commanded to not sin - imo God would not command such a thing if He were not willing to give us the ability to do so

what i appreciate about the op is the steps to doing so

i am a part of different groups doing what the op describes and we are all getting the results the op describes

it is my prayer that more of us will learn how to walk so constantly in the Spirit that we will find out that we truly will not fulfil the lusts of the flesh aka sin

where i stand is some people live in a cycle of sin and repent and others have learned to walk in the Spirit to such a degree that they repent before they have anything to confess because they are so careful to do only what they are told by God

iow the lifestyle the op talks about is possible and more than that commanded but so few have been taught how to fulfil this command which is only by being careful to walk in the Spirit so they don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh aka sin

 

[Hopeful]

Wow, I’ve never heard of that interpretation on baptism before. The biggest flaw I see in your assertion is probably the most obvious... your still living in a body of flesh and you will still die a physical death because of sin

I, like Paul in Gal 2:20, see "our" skin and bones like this..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
It isn't "my" body anymore.
And, I already died to sin when I was immersed into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection...like Rom 6:3-6, 11, 18 state clearly.
The result is Rom 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Paul spoke on Baptism in chapter 6 of Romans, and his writing style in Romans can be viewed as a spiral where he builds levels of knowledge and reflects back upon them. I would like to pull a verse from chapter 8.

Romans 8:10 NIV
But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.

Let's use the KJV for purity of thought.
It is written..."And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
That death occurred in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Your version makes it seem like the body is still alive.
The KJV says it is dead already.
In fact the next verse shows how it is reanimated after its death with Christ, (Rom 6:6)..."But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Rom 8:11)

In Chapter 6 we know that we have died, and rose new. But not in our flesh for Paul states clearly that our body will die because it is subject to sin. Our Spirit, however has been born again (through Baptism) because as Paul states in Chapter 6, we have been United with Christ. We are His bride, and Baptism is meant as our union.

See how your version of the bible has corrupted your thesis?
You follow a doctrine saying sin has dominion over the vessel of the Holy Spirit.
Can you see how ungodly a doctrine that is?

It is dangerous to string together random verses out of context as you’ve done. Our bodies still struggle against sinfulness, which is why Paul also writes:
2 Corinthians 10:5 NIV
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Doesn't that verse annul your point?

Paul, writing to Christians tells them that every thought must be taken captive and made obedient to Christ. This applies to each and everyone of us. Why? Because our flesh can entice us into sin.

I wish you could be as thankful to God as I am for the death of the old man and the resurrection, with Christ, of a new creature born of God's seed.

Paul writes this in 1 Cor 15:34..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."

He also wrote this in Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
No lusts equates to no sin...if you use James 1:14-15 as your guide to sinning.
"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

 

[Hopeful]

1Timothy 2:14 NIV
And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
This verse tells us that their sins were not the same. Eves sin was a sin done in ignorance because she was deceived. Paul states clearly that Adam was not deceived. Instead, Adam willfully disobeyed.

Your source deludes you with information leading to such comments.
Both sinned, and both ended up dying.
Where is your "difference maker" there?

Each sin is treated differently.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.

Again, ALL sinned.
Not "All but Eve sinned...".

Here Paul credits death and sin as coming into the world through Adam. Now, this takes discernment. It was Eve who sinned first, so why does death ( the heavier consequence ) come through Adam, and not Eve? It is because Adam willfully sinned while Eve was deceived.

Deception is no excuse for disobedience.
She willfully, fully, disobeyed God, even repeating to the snake the words God spoke to them.

This was my earlier point. None of us are without sin. We are ignorant and deceived. (Some apparently are deceived into thinking can live sin free aftear we are born again) As we mature in Christ and realize our sin, we don’t need to be fearful of God when the deception is lifted in and we don’t have to be drug down by guilt. God wants us to be set free from that guilt and wants to lift that burden.

I wish you believed in rebirth.
That which is born of God's seed cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil

Hebrews 4 NIV
Jesus the Great High Priest
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest(S) who has ascended into heaven,[f](T)Jesus the Son of God,(U) let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.(V) 15 For we do not have a high priest(W) who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are(X)—yet he did not sin.(Y) 16 Let us then approach(Z) God’s throne of grace with confidence,(AA) so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

My POV shows the efficacy of that approach to God.
Thanks be to God !!!

 

[Hopeful]

amen - i find your experience and pov on scripture helpful - it has expanded my understanding of things i had wondered about

fasting - i find my body stops misbehaving in all ways because it is trying to stay alive by metabolizing body fat

It isn't the body misbehaving, as it has no power at all.
Fasting shows who is in control, and the body is subservient to the mind.

i find my spirit rejoices in God's presence and word and my mind decides this whole process is so cool it wants to fast more often
God bless you

The Spirit rejoices with you while fasting, as it rises to the top.

 

[Truthfrees]

It isn't the body misbehaving, as it has no power at all.
Fasting shows who is in control, and the body is subservient to the mind.

The Spirit rejoices with you while fasting, as it rises to the top.

so that is why the truth sets us free - our mind gets empowered by the truth to grasp the promises of God?

 

[Hopeful]

so that is why the truth sets us free - our mind gets empowered by the truth to grasp the promises of God?

The truth that sets us free, (from committing sin), has already done its job by the time one starts fasting.
But the realization of truth is enhanced when the "vessels" demands fade into the back ground.
Analogy time..."Fishing is a lot more productive, when you quit worrying about the boat!"

 

[JLB]

A sinless body (Jesus) was crucified, buried, and resurrected from the dead.

Yes, Jesus had a sinless body, we do not.

You seem to be following a different Son of God than I do.
No wonder you can't grasp the idea of freedom from sin

Actually, I have been on this Forum for the last 9 years promoting the doctrine of Christ, which has everything to do with living a new life by the Spirit, rather than living like our old life by the flesh.


For you to make up a lie about me that says “you can’t grasp the idea of freedom from sin” is no only a lie, which is sin, but is blatantly false.


Do you believe our physical body becomes sinless, cleansed of sin at water baptism?


A simple yes or no would be refreshing.





JLB

 

[JLB]

How come you can't have that power?

Everyone has that power who has been born again, and has received the Holy Spirit.


I have that power. I also teach that we should not sin. But if we do, we can confess our sin, learn from our mistake, and be forgiven.
Just like the scriptures teach.


My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 2:1


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


Do you confess your sins?




JLB