Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Dustoftheearth]

I've already explained that. We have the promise of eternal life. One who has eternal life doesn't die, Christians die. What is the logical conclusion from that? It would seem to me that we don't yet have that life. That is just as Jesus said,

29 So Jesus answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife1 or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's,
30 "who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time-- houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions-- and in the age to come, eternal life. (Mar 10:29-30 NKJ)

No matter what Scriptures we look at they must not contradict other passages. In this passage Jesus said eternal life is in the age to come. How do you reconcile this passage a claim that one now has eternal life?

I've explained how I reconcile it. The only one who uses eternal life in the present tense is John, all of the other writers use it of the future. This suggests to me that John either had something specific in mind that he was addressing or it's just the we he used the language. I've given the example of a child who has trust fund, although he has the money he doesn't have access to it until the conditions of the fund are met, usually reaching a certain age. I consider eternal life like that. We have the promise of eternal life but won't have access to it until the appointed time, the resurrection. John could also be referring to the Holy Spirit when he say believers have eternal life in the present tense. Paul said,

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (Rom 8:10-11 NKJ)

The Father raised Christ from the dead with the Spirit. That Spirit also dwells in the believer. John could be alluding to the Holy Spirit being in the believer when he speaks of have eternal life in the present. However, notice when this is, it's at the resurrection.

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (Rom 8:10-11 NKJ)

This is about our mortal bodies that will be changed to immortal at the resurrection.

Question: Did Jesus have eternal life before He died on the cross?

 

[Gregg]

Gregg,

I note that you wrote of 'singular neutral gender'. I hope you meant 'singular neuter gender'. Even though I'm an Aussie, I obtained my bachelor's degree with a minor in NT Greek in the USA. There, as in Australia, there are three genders - masculine, feminine and neuter.

Pan is the nominative and accusative, singular, neuter of pas, and in the singular it means 'all'. A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament states that 'pan ho' used here in John 6:37 is the 'collective use of the neuter singular, classic idiom, seen also in 6:39; 17:2, 24; 1 John 5:4. Perhaps the notion of unity like hen in 17:21 underlies this use of pan ho' (vol 5, 1932:107).

However, Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon gives quite an array of uses of pas with it meaning 'all, the whole before proper names, mostly geographic.... With a noun in the plural, without the article ... all men, everyone' (1957:637).

In Christ,
Oz

yes - neuter

 

[Edward]

All you have to do to find out the number of times that ‘eternal’ is in the Bible is to go to Strong’s Concordance. That's what I did and found in my edition of Strong’s KJV that there were 47 examples of the use of ‘eternal’ in the Bible and only 2 of those are in the OT.

You asked, ‘Please explain to me how a person who is going to die has eternal life’. That’s a begging the question (circular reasoning) logical fallacy. In your begging the question fallacy, your premise is that people who die do not have eternal life. Then, what do you conclude? Your conclusion is that this is indeed so. We can’t have a logical discussion when you do this ‘because simply assuming that the conclusion is true (directly or indirectly) in the premises does not constitute evidence for that conclusion’ (source).

Why didn’t I specifically address the passages you posted? The main reason was because we can’t have a logical discussion when you engage in a circular reasoning fallacy.

So what's the meaning of eternal? There are a couple different meanings in Scripture. When applied to God, eternal means that God has no beginning, no end and no succession of moments in his being. Yet God sees events in time and acts in time and eternity (Grudem1994:168). Psalm 90:2 ESV puts it as 'from everlasting to everlasting you are God'.

This we know about eternal life: 'And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life' (I John 5:11-12 ESV ).

If we are 'in his Son', we currently have eternal life. The one who 'has the Son' currently has eternal life and the one who does not currently 'have the Son of God does not have eternal life'.

I'm indeed grateful that when I was saved and Jesus gave me new life (2 Cor 5 17 ESV), my eternal life began. The coming of eternal life into my being changed me from the inside out.

Works consulted
Grudem, W 1994. Systematic theology: An introduction to biblical doctrine. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.

I think the term eternal has deeper connotations than time alone.

 

[OzSpen]

I think the term eternal has deeper connotations than time alone.

At no point have I stated or suggested that 'eternal' only deals with time alone. What I've been stating is that 'eternal life' for the believer begins in this life at the point of salvation and continues beyond death to being in the presence of the Lord.

 

[Butch5]

All you have to do to find out the number of times that ‘eternal’ is in the Bible is to go to Strong’s Concordance. That's what I did and found in my edition of Strong’s KJV that there were 47 examples of the use of ‘eternal’ in the Bible and only 2 of those are in the OT.

What's your point?

You asked, ‘Please explain to me how a person who is going to die has eternal life’. That’s a begging the question (circular reasoning) logical fallacy. In your begging the question fallacy, your premise is that people who die do not have eternal life. Then, what do you conclude? Your conclusion is that this is indeed so. We can’t have a logical discussion when you do this ‘because simply assuming that the conclusion is true (directly or indirectly) in the premises does not constitute evidence for that conclusion’ (source).

Nice try but it's not a fallacy. What does eternal mean?

Webster

1eter·nal
adjective\i-ˈtər-nəl\
: having no beginning and no end in time : lasting forever

: existing at all times : always true or valid

: seeming to last forever

Do believers die?
Why didn’t I specifically address the passages you posted? The main reason was because we can’t have a logical discussion when you engage in a circular reasoning fallacy.

So what's the meaning of eternal? There are a couple different meanings in Scripture. When applied to God, eternal means that God has no beginning, no end and no succession of moments in his being. Yet God sees events in time and acts in time and eternity (Grudem1994:168). Psalm 90:2 ESV puts it as 'from everlasting to everlasting you are God'.

I disagree that the definition changes depending on the subject. I think that's just convenient for the theologians.

This we know about eternal life: 'And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life' (I John 5:11-12 ESV ).

If we are 'in his Son', we currently have eternal life. The one who 'has the Son' currently has eternal life and the one who does not currently 'have the Son of God does not have eternal life'.

I'm indeed grateful that when I was saved and Jesus gave me new life (2 Cor 5 17 ESV), my eternal life began. The coming of eternal life into my being changed me from the inside out.

Works consulted
Grudem, W 1994. Systematic theology: An introduction to biblical doctrine. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.

Does this mean you are not going to die one day? How have you gained access to the tree of life?-

Can you please reconcile Jesus' words with you position?

 

[Butch5]

At no point have I stated or suggested that 'eternal' only deals with time alone. What I've been stating is that 'eternal life' for the believer begins in this life at the point of salvation and continues beyond death to being in the presence of the Lord.

Eternal life begins in this life and continues beyond death???????

 

[Butch5]

Yes, that statement could very well include those who came to Christ afterwards but before his death. Though I am persuaded that Jn 6:37-40 points also to future saints after His Ascension. I do understand your reasoning. My first instinct is to interpret that passage as I have. As I study other Scriptures, they appear to me to be in agreement.

However, my understanding of the Scriptures is lacking and incomplete; as I have misunderstood other passages and doctrines because of the filters that I see through. My hope and prayer is that the Lord will lead me into all truth; and that I may have a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him.

Hi Gregg,

The point I was making was just that this passage doesn't apply universally. I agree that there are other passages that indicate this. The problem is that we are taught to proof text and I try to point that out so that we can look at the Scriptures in context. Sorry if I came on a little strong.

 

[Butch5]

This is about our mortal bodies that will be changed to immortal at the resurrection.

Question: Did Jesus have eternal life before He died on the cross?

He died, how could He have had eternal life?

I disagree that our bodies will be changed to immortal. I believe believers will live because they have access to the tree of life, not that they are made in and of themselves immortal

 

[Dustoftheearth]

He died, how could He have had eternal life?

I disagree that our bodies will be changed to immortal. I believe believers will live because they have access to the tree of life, not that they are made in and of themselves immortal

Did His Spirit die on the cross, or just His mortal body?

1Co 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
2Co 5:3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
2Co 5:5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
2Co 5:6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight--
2Co 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2Co 5:9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

 

[Butch5]

Did His Spirit die on the cross, or just His mortal body?

1Co 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
2Co 5:3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
2Co 5:5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
2Co 5:6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight--
2Co 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2Co 5:9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

What spirit? The Holy Spirit didn't die, the breath/spirit of life didn't die, but neither of them were Jesus. There is no other spirit.

 

[Butch5]

Did His Spirit die on the cross, or just His mortal body?

1Co 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
2Co 5:3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
2Co 5:5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
2Co 5:6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight--
2Co 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2Co 5:9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

This passage actually says that opposite of what of what the ECT side claims. Paul is not saying he wants to put off the body. Notice verses 3 and 4.

2Co 5:3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

In this context being naked is to be without a body and Paul says he doesn't want to be found naked. He says we do not want to be unclothed. The Greek word that is translated "to be clothed" means, to put on over, like one puts on a coat over their clothing. That is what Paul is getting at. He wants to put on the resurrected body over the existing body.That's what he means by, mortality may be swallowed up of life.

 

[eddif]

Wish I was smart enough to jump in here.
Ruac:
Wind, mind, breath, spirit

Jesus did breathe his last Luke 23:46
Jesus did also commend his spirit (same verse)
What else

eddif

 

[Butch5]

Wish I was smart enough to jump in here.
Ruac:
Wind, mind, breath, spirit

Jesus did breathe his last Luke 23:46
Jesus did also commend his spirit (same verse)
What else

eddif

Hi eddif,

It's my contention that "His spirit" is the breath/spirit of life that is in all living beings.

 

[eddif]

Pneuma:
Breath,spirit,soul

Would soul by extension be mind,will, emotions?

eddif

 

[Butch5]

Pneuma:
Breath,spirit,soul

Would soul by extension be mind,will, emotions?

eddif

I think it is used metaphorically of the mind, will, and emotions, but I don't think that the meaning.

 

[eddif]

The phor: bear / carry
The meta: greater

I often do metaphysics. The physical ox treading out the grain; is about the bishop ministering in a Christian congregation, and receiving pay.

I have never tried to meditate on metaphorical things as much.

The greater things of Jesus were handed over to the Father?

Our greater things are put in the trust of Jesus. Boy that book of life really does get important. Though our breath leaves, and our body sees corruption; the things for the meta judgement day are secure. If we keep, the name in the book.

eddif

 

[OzSpen]

What's your point?
Nice try but it's not a fallacy. What does eternal mean?
Webster
1eter·nal
adjective\i-ˈtər-nəl\
: having no beginning and no end in time : lasting forever
: existing at all times : always true or valid
: seeming to last forever
Do believers die?
Why didn’t I specifically address the passages you posted? The main reason was because we can’t have a logical discussion when you engage in a circular reasoning fallacy.
I disagree that the definition changes depending on the subject. I think that's just convenient for the theologians.
Does this mean you are not going to die one day? How have you gained access to the tree of life?-
Can you please reconcile Jesus' words with you position?

You continue with your presupposition being your conclusion, i.e. 'He died, how could He have had eternal life?'

You continue with your question begging (circular reasoning) fallacy. We cannot have a logical discussion when you do this.

I've provided biblical evidence above to refute your position. I will not be repeating it.

Bye.

 

[OzSpen]

Eternal life begins in this life and continues beyond death???????

With this kind of statement, you are promoting a begging the question logical fallacy. I suggest that you become conversant with how you are doing that. See: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html

 

[OzSpen]

It is impossible for a person to loose their salvation. Once you have trusted how that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day, you are justified unto eternal life, being imputed with the righteousness of God, forgiven of all sin(past, present, and future), Sin will not be imputed to you, reconciled to God, having peace with God, Sanctified by the holy Spirit by being baptized into the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and are sealed unto the day of redemption by the Spirit of promise.

That's not what Paul taught Timothy (and us):

This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, 20among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme (1 Tim 1:18-20 ESV )
​

I hope you mean 'lose' and not 'loose'.

 

[Gregg]

Hi Gregg,

The point I was making was just that this passage doesn't apply universally. I agree that there are other passages that indicate this. The problem is that we are taught to proof text and I try to point that out so that we can look at the Scriptures in context. Sorry if I came on a little strong.

That is not true. We read every passage in its context [because all passages begin in a certain context], but truths are universal and have application outside of the context. The truth that we are discussing is "that everyone seeing [spiritually perceive] the Son and believing into Him should have everlasting life" (Jn 6:40).

That universal truth is this: that man will not know God through our physical eyes, or through our flesh; [Adam tried it that way]. But we are enlightened in our heart, and we know Him by spiritual wisdom and by revelation.

Adam tried to become like God, knowing good and evil through the lust of his physical eyes, but he could not achieve his intent. It is interesting that after Adam fell he could no longer see the glory of God, the Light of the world, as the Lord approached him in the garden of Eden. Only could Adam physically hear God's footsteps as He approached. A man can not see Jesus in the flesh and thereby come to know Him through physical sight. He must also believe, and that happens in the heart after the enlightening of our spiritual eyes. Spiritual perception united with faith leads to everlasting life.

The glory of God, the Light of the world, was standing before the Jews in Jn 6:37-40 . . . and yet they could not see or discern that it was their God and Creator. It was Christ's hope that the Jews would perceive that He was their God, and that seeing from their heart they would believe in Him for everlasting life.

Butch, even in Jesus' presence and seeing Him with physical eyes, for eternal life they must see Him with spiritual eyes united by faith.