Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Gregg]

If eternal life could end, it is a contradiction of itself.

 

[Gregg]

I've explained how I reconcile it. The only one who uses eternal life in the present tense is John, all of the other writers use it of the future. This suggests to me that John either had something specific in mind that he was addressing or it's just the we he used the language.

Butch,

It is the Holy Spirit [writing through John] who uses the present tense. It is what the Holy Spirit had in mind when He chose that word. And He Himself says this also through John:

"The one having the Son has life. The one not having the Son of God does not have life" (1Jn 5:12), and "that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn 3:15).

As we look into the Scriptures, rather as we look towards the Lord Himself, may we leave room for His compassion, mercy, and grace.

 

[OzSpen]

If eternal life could end, it is a contradiction of itself.

Not really, as Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV tells us.

However, there is a very important verse that affirms that eternal life begins in the present and continues as long as one continues to believe:

John 3:36 ESV states, 'Whoever believes [present tense] in the Son has [present tense] eternal life; whoever does not obey [present tense] the Son shall not see [future tense] life, but the wrath of God remains [present tense] on him'.

So the Greek text teaches that:

• Whoever continues to believe in the Son,
• Continues to have ETERNAL LIFE.
• Whoever does not continue to obey the Son
• Will not see life, and
• The wrath of God continues to remain on him.

It is very clear from this verse that eternal life is experienced in this life from the moment one believes and continues to believe in the Son (Jesus).

There is nothing in this verse to say that eternal life is only experienced after death.

Oz

 

[Dustoftheearth]

What spirit? The Holy Spirit didn't die, the breath/spirit of life didn't die, but neither of them were Jesus. There is no other spirit.

Does that then mean, you don’t believe that Jesus Christ 'the Son of God' was/is God who was manifest in the flesh?

 

[Edward]

At no point have I stated or suggested that 'eternal' only deals with time alone. What I've been stating is that 'eternal life' for the believer begins in this life at the point of salvation and continues beyond death to being in the presence of the Lord.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that brother. I just seen that you all were talking about 'eternal' so I commented on it and what I thought. I'm not saying you are wrong or disparaging your statements in the least. Just chiming in brother!

 

[Edward]

What spirit? The Holy Spirit didn't die, the breath/spirit of life didn't die, but neither of them were Jesus. There is no other spirit.

Some of us believe that we are 3 part being, spirit/soul and body. I know that you do not think that man has his own spirit, but this is what the man's saying. Jesus mortal body dies on the cross, and His Spirit lives on, eternally. I'm in this camp.

I think that since we have spirits, that eternal life could indeed be within us when we receive our salvation, and whether we die in the flesh or not, we have eternal life because we will continue to live and be conscious without regard to time or flesh death.

 

[Butch5]

You continue with your presupposition being your conclusion, i.e. 'He died, how could He have had eternal life?'

You continue with your question begging (circular reasoning) fallacy. We cannot have a logical discussion when you do this.

I've provided biblical evidence above to refute your position. I will not be repeating it.

Bye.

There is no fallacy. Does eternal mean unending?

You've not refuted anything

 

[Butch5]

With this kind of statement, you are promoting a begging the question logical fallacy. I suggest that you become conversant with how you are doing that. See: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html

It's not necessary. Does eternal mean unending?

 

[Gregg]

Not really, as Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV tells us.

However, there is a very important verse that affirms that eternal life begins in the present and continues as long as one continues to believe:

John 3:36 ESV states, 'Whoever believes [present tense] in the Son has [present tense] eternal life; whoever does not obey [present tense] the Son shall not see [future tense] life, but the wrath of God remains [present tense] on him'.

So the Greek text teaches that:

• Whoever continues to believe in the Son,
• Continues to have ETERNAL LIFE.
• Whoever does not continue to obey the Son
• Will not see life, and
• The wrath of God continues to remain on him.

It is very clear from this verse that eternal life is experienced in this life from the moment one believes and continues to believe in the Son (Jesus).

There is nothing in this verse to say that eternal life is only experienced after death.

Oz

I believe eternal life begins in the present, not after death. I haven't stated otherwise.

Heb 6:4-6 [not describing those saved] and Jn 3:36 do not contend against perpetuity of eternal life, that is when the reader rightly understands what the Holy Spirit is saying.

When you say "continue to believe" regarding the Christian, you incorporate works and human frailties in the equation of salvation. But the Scriptures teach that it is God who begins and sustains our eternal life once in Christ. Our mortal body of flesh [circumcised from our spiritual person upon believing] is still sentenced to die physically; and will be resurrected at Christ's Coming. But our spiritual person is already resurrected in Christ.

 

[Butch5]

That is not true. We read every passage in its context [because all passages begin in a certain context], but truths are universal and have application outside of the context. The truth that we are discussing is "that everyone seeing [spiritually perceive] the Son and believing into Him should have everlasting life" (Jn 6:40).

That universal truth is this: that man will not know God through our physical eyes, or through our flesh; [Adam tried it that way]. But we are enlightened in our heart, and we know Him by spiritual wisdom and by revelation.

Adam tried to become like God, knowing good and evil through the lust of his physical eyes, but he could not achieve his intent. It is interesting that after Adam fell he could no longer see the glory of God, the Light of the world, as the Lord approached him in the garden of Eden. Only could Adam physically hear God's footsteps as He approached. A man can not see Jesus in the flesh and thereby come to know Him through physical sight. He must also believe, and that happens in the heart after the enlightening of our spiritual eyes. Spiritual perception united with faith leads to everlasting life.

The glory of God, the Light of the world, was standing before the Jews in Jn 6:37-40 . . . and yet they could not see or discern that it was their God and Creator. It was Christ's hope that the Jews would perceive that He was their God, and that seeing from their heart they would believe in Him for everlasting life.

Butch, even in Jesus' presence and seeing Him with physical eyes, for eternal life they must see Him with spiritual eyes united by faith.

I'm not sure what spiritual eyes are but those tho whom He was speaking could both see and here Him. He said those seeing and believing may have eternal life. I'm not sure what your basis is for claiming spiritual eyes are needed.

 

[Butch5]

Some of us believe that we are 3 part being, spirit/soul and body. I know that you do not think that man has his own spirit, but this is what the man's saying. Jesus mortal body dies on the cross, and His Spirit lives on, eternally. I'm in this camp.

I think that since we have spirits, that eternal life could indeed be within us when we receive our salvation, and whether we die in the flesh or not, we have eternal life because we will continue to live and be conscious without regard to time or flesh death.

Hi Edward,

I understand that some believe that, however, that argument can't be made from Scripture so I don't see how it can be the basis of an argument.

 

[Butch5]

Does that then mean, you don’t believe that Jesus Christ 'the Son of God' was/is God who was manifest in the flesh?

Yes, I believe He is God. He is the Son and of the same essence as the Father, Is that what you are getting at?

 

[Butch5]

Butch,

It is the Holy Spirit [writing through John] who uses the present tense. It is what the Holy Spirit had in mind when He chose that word. And He Himself says this also through John:

"The one having the Son has life. The one not having the Son of God does not have life" (1Jn 5:12), and "that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn 3:15).

As we look into the Scriptures, rather as we look towards the Lord Himself, may we leave room for His compassion, mercy, and grace.

Gregg,

If we're going to get to the truth of Scripture we're going to have to address "all" of the Scripture that deal with a subject. Several people have posted passages from John using the present tense, yet none of them has addressed the passages I posted that speak of eternal life as happening in the future. In a search for the truth we must reconcile all of these passages.

You have John saying the believe has eternal life and you have Jesus saying that eternal life is in the age to come, how do you reconcile these passages. I've already explained how I do. What I said makes sense and fit the Scriptures. What say you?

 

[Edward]

Hi Edward,

I understand that some believe that, however, that argument can't be made from Scripture so I don't see how it can be the basis of an argument.

Oh it all depends on your perception and interpretation of scripture. I believe it spells it out very plainly

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ./(KJV)

"your" whole spirit, soul, and body. Seems very clear to me, and to others from what I've read...

 

[Butch5]

Oh it all depends on your perception and interpretation of scripture. I believe it spells it out very plainly

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ./(KJV)

"your" whole spirit, soul, and body. Seems very clear to me, and to others from what I've read...

OK, Gen 2 tells us that the spirit (God's) and the body (man) became a soul. I don't see anything here that can live on after death except the spirit that belongs to God, if it is alive. The word actually means breath or wind. Either way I don't see anything that is man that can live on. What am I missing?

 

[Edward]

OK, Gen 2 tells us that the spirit (God's) and the body (man) became a soul. I don't see anything here that can live on after death except the spirit that belongs to God, if it is alive. The word actually means breath or wind. Either way I don't see anything that is man that can live on. What am I missing?

I've told you before brother, and you didn't receive it. Too much conviction with your own beliefs. Which is ok, believe what you want to believe, but we have been through this. There is nothing I could say tonight that would change your mind. I just commented about the discussion because you seemed to have the position that you're right and no one else could possible be right. But some of us do believe that man does have a spirit and this (if true!) could change the whole scenario that you all are talking about. Sometimes its good to set aside ones own beliefs, just long enough to see the others point that they're trying to make. It doesn't mean you have to accept it as truth, its just a respectful way to debate academically. See what I mean?

 

[Butch5]

I've told you before brother, and you didn't receive it. Too much conviction with your own beliefs. Which is ok, believe what you want to believe, but we have been through this. There is nothing I could say tonight that would change your mind. I just commented about the discussion because you seemed to have the position that you're right and no one else could possible be right. But some of us do believe that man does have a spirit and this (if true!) could change the whole scenario that you all are talking about. Sometimes its good to set aside ones own beliefs, just long enough to see the others point that they're trying to make. It doesn't mean you have to accept it as truth, its just a respectful way to debate academically. See what I mean?

Hi Edward,

I do that quite often and have for several years. That's how I came to understand CI, it was by putting aside my presuppositions. I've also come to other positions by putting aside my presupposition. All I ask is that one present a sound case from Scripture.

 

[Edward]

Hi Edward,

I do that quite often and have for several years. That's how I came to understand CI, it was by putting aside my presuppositions. I've also come to other positions by putting aside my presupposition. All I ask is that one present a sound case from Scripture.

Ok, you got it. I'll list a bunch of scriptures for you which you can ponder and draw a conclusion.
I think I can make a very good case that man owns his own spirit and it is not merely the breath of God.

Romans 8:16
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:/(KJV)
(Now if it were merely God Spirit, would He need to bear witness with Himself?!)

Zecariah 12:1
12 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.(KJV)
(Brother, if that isn't clear, then I'm insane!)

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
(It doesn't say "Gods Spirit returns to Him" It says He gave it to us.)

1 Corinthians 2:11
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God./(KJV)
(Pretty clear, (to me))

I have more. want some more brother, or is this enough for now?

 

[Butch5]

Ok, you got it. I'll list a bunch of scriptures for you which you can ponder and draw a conclusion.
I think I can make a very good case that man owns his own spirit and it is not merely the breath of God.

Romans 8:16
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:/(KJV)
(Now if it were merely God Spirit, would He need to bear witness with Himself?!)

Zecariah 12:1
12 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.(KJV)
(Brother, if that isn't clear, then I'm insane!)

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
(It doesn't say "Gods Spirit returns to Him" It says He gave it to us.)

1 Corinthians 2:11
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God./(KJV)
(Pretty clear, (to me))

I have more. want some more brother, or is this enough for now?

If you have more, yes. I believe I've address all of these a one point or another. I can address them again if you'd like.

 

[Butch5]

Ok, you got it. I'll list a bunch of scriptures for you which you can ponder and draw a conclusion.
I think I can make a very good case that man owns his own spirit and it is not merely the breath of God.

Romans 8:16
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:/(KJV)
(Now if it were merely God Spirit, would He need to bear witness with Himself?!)

Zecariah 12:1
12 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.(KJV)
(Brother, if that isn't clear, then I'm insane!)

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
(It doesn't say "Gods Spirit returns to Him" It says He gave it to us.)

1 Corinthians 2:11
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God./(KJV)
(Pretty clear, (to me))

I have more. want some more brother, or is this enough for now?

Maybe I wasn't clear. When I said, "all I ask for is a sound argument from Scripture" I meant to lay out a logical argument from the Scriptures. If we just post individual verse without tying them into a logical argument we usually just get what we see so often that being disputes about what the passages mean. What I am referring to is something like what Paul does in Romans where he goes to the Scriptures and lays out a logical argument for justification by faith.