Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Butch5]

Seeing God with physical eyes does not lead to salvation, but He is at work in the hearts of men giving them understanding and conviction through their spiritual eyes. Spiritual sight united with faith leads to salvation. "All" and "everyone" in Jn 6:37-40 applies to men throughout this age. "I shall not lose any of it" (Jn 6:39) applies to all Christians.

He said he who see the son and believes. Jesus said He had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Given that statement how do you apply Jesus' words, 'he who sees the son and believes', to men throughout the ages?

The point I'm making here is that every passage of Scripture is part of a larger thought. We can't just take a passage and apply it outside of the context in which it appears. Jesus said He only came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. That means what He did and said pertains to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. If we are going to apply His words outside of that we need something in Scripture that will allow the words to be used outside of the original context.

If I walk into a theater and say anyone who comes to my house can have free pizza, I've offered free pizza to everyone in the theater. Now if some goes outside of the theater and says come over to Butch5's house for free pizza, I'm not obligated to give free pizza to anyone who was not in the theater because I only said it to them not to those outside of the theater. Someone who offered pizza to someone outside of the theater took my statement out of context and used it in a way it was not inteded.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's like "here's $100.00. keep it. but if you buy cigarettes and alcohol with it, I'll take it all back and never give you anything again".
Not a free gift at all, is it?

I guess eternal life is not a free gift.

There is no amount of righteous things that you can do to earn a declaration of righteousness before God. The only way to be declared a righteous person is to have your unrighteousness forgiven, wiped away as a gracious act of God through faith in the blood of Christ to do that. That is what is free about salvation. Even the faith to believe in the blood is a free gift of God. But if we do not continue in the free gifts of Christ's righteousness and the faith to secure that righteousness how can we continue in the benefit of those free gifts?

The condition for eternal life is faith in the blood of Christ for a declaration of righteousness. Nobody can be saved without the free gifts of Christ's righteousness and the faith to secure it. But 'striving' and wanting to continue in those free gifts hardly makes it a works salvation. We can tell that we are continuing in those free gifts, and thus saved through those free gifts, by our desire to walk in the gift of righteousness we have freely received.

 

[JohnD]

If a person can give up salvation at any point then has he got saved in the first place?

One person was arguing with me about this but is this logic possible?

1 John 2:19 (KJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Never saved in the first place.

 

[eddif]

Yeah sure I agree. Please show me in the OT wher this "other book" is. Or show me who you are if that's preferable :biggrin

II Corinthians 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after theflesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Jesus can be known after the flesh, because he was without sin ( in the days of his flesh). I will let you down in the natural (flesh), the only hope is the newborn spirit ( of mind?) peeks through the flesh. The veil of our new man is torn; which allows a view of the inner man.

Genesis is the word record book of creation
Genetics is the chemical record book of creation
The word became flesh in Jesus Christ became the first living life epistle of the word. Hopefully that living new man is also for today.

I will think some more.

eddif

 

[eddif]

I Corinthians 10:1-4
The reality / body of Jesus reflecting his life as a shadow back to the wilderness wanderings is just about more than Mississippi minds can grasp.

A rock had to be broken once to deal with the thirst of souls. After the onetime death of Jesus we speak of the onetime sacrifice (he does not have to suffer every year) . There in the context of the wilderness is the suffering of Jesus Christ . I really love the insight of NT Jewish authors, and the prophecy of the OT Prophets prophecy about future events.

Although this thread is about loss of salvation, it is doing a good job of defining salvation (which is good). I John really is deep in defining aspects of salvation.

eddif

 

[Dustoftheearth]

My statement isn't contradicted, it's pretty straight forward that eternal life means one doesn't die, if one dies he doesn't have eternal life. What is there that is not correct. A claim that one is now in possession of eternal life is in contradiction with other passages of Scripture.

Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

He who has the Spirit has life, he who does not have the Spirit, does not have life.

What life is it (that one has) if not eternal life?

Is 'Christ in you' not eternal life?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1 John 2:19 (KJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Never saved in the first place.

13 Now Paul and his companions put out to sea from Paphos and came to Perga in Pamphylia; but John left them and returned to Jerusalem." (Acts 13:13 NAS)

37 Barnabas wanted to take John, called Mark, along with them also. 38 But Paul kept insisting that they should not take him along who had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not gone with them to the work. 39 And there occurred such a sharp disagreement that they separated from one another, and Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus." (Acts 15:37-39 NAS)

How do we get from these passages that Barnabas's cousin was never saved to begin with? How does failure in ministry mean you were never saved to begin with?

Some even think that the Mark in this passage may be the same Mark who deserted Paul in Acts 13:

"11Only Luke is with me. Pick up Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful to me for service." (2 Timothy 4:11 NAS)

Apparently Augustine is the one who decided 1 John 2:19 means,categorically, without exception or difference, that anytime someone fails it means they were never saved to begin with. "The Bible is its own best commentary", and that being true, we see from the Bible that it does NOT mean categorically, without exception or difference, that when someone turns back it means they were never saved to begin with. How foolish.

"(A) little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough" (1 Corinthians 5:6 NAS). The leaven of this false interpretation of 1 John 2:19 eventually did made it's way into the church and now look at how much of the whole batch this false teaching has worked itself through.

 

[Gregg]

He said he who see the son and believes. Jesus said He had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Given that statement how do you apply Jesus' words, 'he who sees the son and believes', to men throughout the ages?

The point I'm making here is that every passage of Scripture is part of a larger thought. We can't just take a passage and apply it outside of the context in which it appears. Jesus said He only came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. That means what He did and said pertains to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. If we are going to apply His words outside of that we need something in Scripture that will allow the words to be used outside of the original context.

If I walk into a theater and say anyone who comes to my house can have free pizza, I've offered free pizza to everyone in the theater. Now if some goes outside of the theater and says come over to Butch5's house for free pizza, I'm not obligated to give free pizza to anyone who was not in the theater because I only said it to them not to those outside of the theater. Someone who offered pizza to someone outside of the theater took my statement out of context and used it in a way it was not inteded.

May we look deeper into the passage before us (Jn 6:37-40).

v37 "All [singular neutral gender 'pan'] that the Father gives to Me . . ."
v39 "of all [singular neutral gender 'pan'] that He has given Me . . ."

The singular neutral gender in those two instances suggests that Jesus is referring to the whole of what the Father gives to Him. He is referring to the Church in its entirety, to His Body as a singular whole.

And for this reason, any member of His body rightly perceives these statements as directed to them: "I will in no way cast out" (Jn 6:37), "I shall not lose any" (Jn 6:39), "shall raise it up" (Jn 6:39), and "should have everlasting life" (Jn 6:40) .

 

[Butch5]

May we look deeper into the passage before us (Jn 6:37-40).

v37 "All [singular neutral gender 'pan'] that the Father gives to Me . . ."
v39 "of all [singular neutral gender 'pan'] that He has given Me . . ."

The singular neutral gender in those two instances suggests that Jesus is referring to the whole of what the Father gives to Him. He is referring to the Church in its entirety, to His Body as a singular whole.

And for this reason, any member of His body rightly perceives these statements as directed to them: "I will in no way cast out" (Jn 6:37), "I shall not lose any" (Jn 6:39), "shall raise it up" (Jn 6:39), and "should have everlasting life" (Jn 6:40) .

While I agree that it refers to the whole of those the Father gave Him, I disagree that it's a reference to the church. Consider Jesus's words in John 17.

KJV John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. {sanctified...: or, truly sanctified} 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. (Joh 17:1 KJV)

Notice Jesus' words in the past tense, 'those thou gavest me.' Those given to Jesus was a specific group of men for the purpose which God had for them. There is nothing else in the Scriptures about anyone else being given to Christ. None of the apostles speak of believers being given to Christ (except for Jesus word there).

 

[Butch5]

Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

He who has the Spirit has life, he who does not have the Spirit, does not have life.

What life is it (that one has) if not eternal life?

Is 'Christ in you' not eternal life?

I've already explained that. We have the promise of eternal life. One who has eternal life doesn't die, Christians die. What is the logical conclusion from that? It would seem to me that we don't yet have that life. That is just as Jesus said,

29 So Jesus answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife1 or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's,
30 "who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time-- houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions-- and in the age to come, eternal life. (Mar 10:29-30 NKJ)

No matter what Scriptures we look at they must not contradict other passages. In this passage Jesus said eternal life is in the age to come. How do you reconcile this passage a claim that one now has eternal life?

I've explained how I reconcile it. The only one who uses eternal life in the present tense is John, all of the other writers use it of the future. This suggests to me that John either had something specific in mind that he was addressing or it's just the we he used the language. I've given the example of a child who has trust fund, although he has the money he doesn't have access to it until the conditions of the fund are met, usually reaching a certain age. I consider eternal life like that. We have the promise of eternal life but won't have access to it until the appointed time, the resurrection. John could also be referring to the Holy Spirit when he say believers have eternal life in the present tense. Paul said,

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (Rom 8:10-11 NKJ)

The Father raised Christ from the dead with the Spirit. That Spirit also dwells in the believer. John could be alluding to the Holy Spirit being in the believer when he speaks of have eternal life in the present. However, notice when this is, it's at the resurrection.

 

[chessman]

The limit is your faith.
.

Who's faith is limited? I thought faith could move mountains?

1 Corinthians 12:8-9, 11 For to one is given ... faith by the same Spirit, ... and the same Spirit is at work, distributing to each one individually just as he wishes.

Romans 3:24 being justified as a gift by his grace,
​

They are free to walk away on their own.

I am 'free' to murder. That doesn't mean I will. Warnings can be followed, you know.

Let's divide every human that has ever lived or will in the future into two groups; S=Saved people, Secured by an inheritance from Christ unto Salvation by the gift of His Spirit and all other people let's call them Group G.

​

Right. Christ does not lose any.

I agree. That's what Jesus says.
So are you suggesting that a member of Group S can 'walk away' and become a member of Group G?

​

 

[eddif]

Romans 14:1
While weak in faith might not be best, we still receive such a one (on a level).

eddif

 

[Gregg]

While I agree that it refers to the whole of those the Father gave Him, I disagree that it's a reference to the church. Consider Jesus's words in John 17.

KJV John 17 "These words spake Jesus, . . . that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them."

Notice Jesus' words in the past tense, 'those thou gavest me.' Those given to Jesus was a specific group of men for the purpose which God had for them. There is nothing else in the Scriptures about anyone else being given to Christ. None of the apostles speak of believers being given to Christ (except for Jesus word there).

Let's stay with Jn 6:37-40 and look still closer at it.

Jn 6:37 "All that the Father gives to Me they shall come [ηξει - 3rd person future] to Me, and the one coming to Me I will in no way cast out."
Jn 6:40 "And this is the will of the One sending Me, that everyone seeing the Son and believing into Him they have [εχη - 3rd person present] everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Although Jesus was speaking with those present, He referred to a third party not directly in His audience. "They shall come" refers to "All that the Father gives" in Jn 6:37, and "they have" refers to "everyone seeing the Son and believing" in Jn 6:40. The Jews and His disciples were present in His audience and if He were referring to them in the words above, He would have used a 2nd person verb ending. He was certainly referring to the Church.

 

[Gregg]

While I agree that it refers to the whole of those the Father gave Him, I disagree that it's a reference to the church. Consider Jesus's words in John 17.

Notice Jesus' words in the past tense, 'those thou gavest me.' Those given to Jesus was a specific group of men for the purpose which God had for them. There is nothing else in the Scriptures about anyone else being given to Christ. None of the apostles speak of believers being given to Christ (except for Jesus word there).

But notice this in Jn 17:20, "And I do not pray concerning these only, but also concerning those who will believe in Me through their word;"

A Scripture reference regarding many others given to Christ: "Ask of Me, and I will give the nations as Your inheritance; and the uttermost parts of the earth as Your possession" (Psa 2:8).

Brother, I humbly ask that you will reconsider some of your positions.

 

[Butch5]

But notice this in Jn 17:20, "And I do not pray concerning these only, but also concerning those who will believe in Me through their word;"

A Scripture reference regarding many others given to Christ: "Ask of Me, and I will give the nations as Your inheritance; and the uttermost parts of the earth as Your possession" (Psa 2:8).

Brother, I humbly ask that you will reconsider some of your positions.

Hi Gregg,

John 17 isn't talking about people being given to but rather those who believe through the words of the apostles.

Psalm 2 is a reference to the resurrection. Christ will inherit that land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Scriptures say that He will shepherd them (the nations) with rod of iron. It's speaking of the millennial kingdom. The passage is addressing a different issue.

 

[Butch5]

Let's stay with Jn 6:37-40 and look still closer at it.

Jn 6:37 "All that the Father gives to Me they shall come [ηξει - 3rd person future] to Me, and the one coming to Me I will in no way cast out."
Jn 6:40 "And this is the will of the One sending Me, that everyone seeing the Son and believing into Him they have [εχη - 3rd person present] everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Although Jesus was speaking with those present, He referred to a third party not directly in His audience. "They shall come" refers to "All that the Father gives" in Jn 6:37, and "they have" refers to "everyone seeing the Son and believing" in Jn 6:40. The Jews and His disciples were present in His audience and if He were referring to them in the words above, He would have used a 2nd person verb ending. He was certainly referring to the Church.

Doesn't this assume that all of those given to Him were already given at this point? There's no reason that the third person cannot refer to those who came to Christ after His statement and before his death.

[εχη - 3rd person present] is also in the subjunctive mood and is they rendered "may have"

I don't see any way that this statement can be attributed to the church. I don't think the context will allow that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Who's faith is limited? I thought faith could move mountains?

You have to continue to have that faith. That's the point. The mountain you moved yesterday by faith will not move today without that same faith.

I am 'free' to murder. That doesn't mean I will. Warnings can be followed, you know.

It's not a matter of what sin you'll commit if you walk away from Christ's forgiveness. It's just a matter of when you'll sin.

Let's divide every human that has ever lived or will in the future into two groups; S=Saved people, Secured by an inheritance from Christ unto Salvation by the gift of His Spirit and all other people let's call them Group G.
[...]
So are you suggesting that a member of Group S can 'walk away' and become a member of Group G?

Yes. They can stop relying on the sacrifice of Christ for the forgiveness of sin that is ever before the Father in heaven making intercession for those who are trusting in that to do that for them. Stop trusting that it is doing that for you in heaven and it will no longer be doing that for you.

 

[Gregg]

Doesn't this assume that all of those given to Him were already given at this point? There's no reason that the third person cannot refer to those who came to Christ after His statement and before his death.

[εχη - 3rd person present] is also in the subjunctive mood and is they rendered "may have"

I don't see any way that this statement can be attributed to the church. I don't think the context will allow that.

Yes, that statement could very well include those who came to Christ afterwards but before his death. Though I am persuaded that Jn 6:37-40 points also to future saints after His Ascension. I do understand your reasoning. My first instinct is to interpret that passage as I have. As I study other Scriptures, they appear to me to be in agreement.

However, my understanding of the Scriptures is lacking and incomplete; as I have misunderstood other passages and doctrines because of the filters that I see through. My hope and prayer is that the Lord will lead me into all truth; and that I may have a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, it depends on the conditions that are set.

That's in context, using 2 Tim 3:16 doesn't address the NT.

Can you show me where eternal is in the Bible?

Please explain to me how a person who is going to die has eternal life.

You didn't address any of the passages I posted. Jesus explicitly stated aionios life is in the age to come. How do you reconcile the passages I posted?

All you have to do to find out the number of times that ‘eternal’ is in the Bible is to go to Strong’s Concordance. That's what I did and found in my edition of Strong’s KJV that there were 47 examples of the use of ‘eternal’ in the Bible and only 2 of those are in the OT.

You asked, ‘Please explain to me how a person who is going to die has eternal life’. That’s a begging the question (circular reasoning) logical fallacy. In your begging the question fallacy, your premise is that people who die do not have eternal life. Then, what do you conclude? Your conclusion is that this is indeed so. We can’t have a logical discussion when you do this ‘because simply assuming that the conclusion is true (directly or indirectly) in the premises does not constitute evidence for that conclusion’ (source).

Why didn’t I specifically address the passages you posted? The main reason was because we can’t have a logical discussion when you engage in a circular reasoning fallacy.

So what's the meaning of eternal? There are a couple different meanings in Scripture. When applied to God, eternal means that God has no beginning, no end and no succession of moments in his being. Yet God sees events in time and acts in time and eternity (Grudem1994:168). Psalm 90:2 ESV puts it as 'from everlasting to everlasting you are God'.

This we know about eternal life: 'And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life' (I John 5:11-12 ESV ).

If we are 'in his Son', we currently have eternal life. The one who 'has the Son' currently has eternal life and the one who does not currently 'have the Son of God does not have eternal life'.

I'm indeed grateful that when I was saved and Jesus gave me new life (2 Cor 5 17 ESV), my eternal life began. The coming of eternal life into my being changed me from the inside out.

Works consulted
Grudem, W 1994. Systematic theology: An introduction to biblical doctrine. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.

 

[OzSpen]

May we look deeper into the passage before us (Jn 6:37-40).

v37 "All [singular neutral gender 'pan'] that the Father gives to Me . . ."
v39 "of all [singular neutral gender 'pan'] that He has given Me . . ."

The singular neutral gender in those two instances suggests that Jesus is referring to the whole of what the Father gives to Him. He is referring to the Church in its entirety, to His Body as a singular whole.

And for this reason, any member of His body rightly perceives these statements as directed to them: "I will in no way cast out" (Jn 6:37), "I shall not lose any" (Jn 6:39), "shall raise it up" (Jn 6:39), and "should have everlasting life" (Jn 6:40) .

Gregg,

I note that you wrote of 'singular neutral gender'. I hope you meant 'singular neuter gender'. Even though I'm an Aussie, I obtained my bachelor's degree with a minor in NT Greek in the USA. There, as in Australia, there are three genders - masculine, feminine and neuter.

Pan is the nominative and accusative, singular, neuter of pas, and in the singular it means 'all'. A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament states that 'pan ho' used here in John 6:37 is the 'collective use of the neuter singular, classic idiom, seen also in 6:39; 17:2, 24; 1 John 5:4. Perhaps the notion of unity like hen in 17:21 underlies this use of pan ho' (vol 5, 1932:107).

However, Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon gives quite an array of uses of pas with it meaning 'all, the whole before proper names, mostly geographic.... With a noun in the plural, without the article ... all men, everyone' (1957:637).

In Christ,
Oz