Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[OzSpen]

Mat 7:21-23 Many people call Him Lord, but do not believe in Him. The will of the Father is not to know about the Person of Jesus, but to believe in Him. "And this is the will of the Father sending Me, that of all that He has given Me, I shall not lose any of it, but shall raise it up in the last day." (John 6:39).

Gregg,

But we have this message from 1 Timothy 1:18-20,

18This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, 20among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme (ESV).​

We have biblical evidence of those who 'made shipwreck of their faith' and of those who committed apostasy for whom there was no further repentance possible (Hebrews 6:4-6).

 

[Butch5]

Butch,

Are you saying that there is no way a Christian can know this side of the resurrection at the last days that he or she has received eternal life in believing in and continuing to believe in Christ alone for salvation?

Oz

One can know they are in the faith, however, one doesn't receive eternal life until they are resurrected. I think we can all agree that Christians die, one who has eternal life doesn't die.

 

[Butch5]

I'm pretty much with you on that. There's too many scriptures that speak of enduring until the end, overcoming, keep your faith, and work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for me to easily dismiss them and say oh, I'm saved and OSAS blah blah blah. Oh it's a great thought and idea for OSAS, but that scripture that says in that day many will say Lord Lord, and I will say I never knew you. That's scary. There will be no debating with God on that day.

And those scriptures which speak of one having their name blotted out, sure there's much debate about the correct interpretation of them, but one thing stands clear about it....scary. We are instructed to pray that we are found to be worthy to be able to stand in the front of the Son of man even. I tell you, until I hear those words, well done thou good and faithful servant...I'm going to remain fearful and very hesitant to say anything like Oh, I'm saved and God wouldn't do that to me.

I'd like to think that He wouldn't, but He's GOD and will do with me what He will. Lord be with me and let no one snatch me from your hand.

I hear you, that was well put!

 

[Edward]

I hear you, that was well put!

Thank you brother!

 

[OzSpen]

One can know they are in the faith, however, one doesn't receive eternal life until they are resurrected. I think we can all agree that Christians die, one who has eternal life doesn't die.

That is not what 1 John 5:13 states: 'I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life' (ESV).

• 'believe' = the believing ones = a present tense participle, which means 'the ones continuing believing in the present'.
• 'may know' = perfect tense subjunctive mood = action in the past with continuing results in the present = may continue knowing.
• 'have' = present tense = continuing to have in the present.

Therefore, it is very clear from the Greek tenses in this verse that any person who continues to believe in the name of the Son of God, Jesus, may continue to know that he/she continues to have eternal life - in this life.

One does not have to wait until the resurrection to know if one has eternal life. It can be known NOW in our present experience of believing in Jesus alone for salvation.

1 John 5:13 contradicts your statement that 'one who has eternal life doesn't die'.

People may KNOW in this life that they have eternal life. The ultimate will come in the next life when there is no more sin.

Oz

 

[Butch5]

That is not what 1 John 5:13 states: 'I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life' (ESV).

• 'believe' = the believing ones = a present tense participle, which means 'the ones continuing believing in the present'.
• 'may know' = perfect tense subjunctive mood = action in the past with continuing results in the present = may continue knowing.
• 'have' = present tense = continuing to have in the present.

Therefore, it is very clear from the Greek tenses in this verse that any person who continues to believe in the name of the Son of God, Jesus, may continue to know that he/she continues to have eternal life - in this life.

One does not have to wait until the resurrection to know if one has eternal life. It can be known NOW in our present experience of believing in Jesus alone for salvation.

1 John 5:13 contradicts your statement that 'one who has eternal life doesn't die'.

People may KNOW in this life that they have eternal life. The ultimate will come in the next life when there is no more sin.

Oz

There's a difference between knowing one has it and actually being in possession of it. A child with a million dollar trust fund has a million dollars, however, until he meets the conditions of that fund he doesn't have possession of that fund. If you take notice, John is the only one who uses eternal life in the present tense, I believe this is significant.

My statement isn't contradicted, it's pretty straight forward that eternal life means one doesn't die, if one dies he doesn't have eternal life. What is there that is not correct. A claim that one is now in possession of eternal life is in contradiction with other passages of Scripture.

 

[Butch5]

Thank you brother!

 

[Edward]

There's a difference between knowing one has it and actually being in possession of it. A child with a million dollar trust fund has a million dollars, however, until he meets the conditions of that fund he doesn't have possession of that fund. If you take notice, John is the only one who uses eternal life in the present tense, I believe this is significant.

My statement isn't contradicted, it's pretty straight forward that eternal life means one doesn't die, if one dies he doesn't have eternal life. What is there that is not correct. A claim that one is now in possession of eternal life is in contradiction with other passages of Scripture.

That's the rub, right here. We can know that we have been saved and believe it (You better!), and the enemy will whisper to you that you don't, not good enough and so forth...and we shouldn't listen to this...but at the same time we shouldn't be lackadaisically over confident and should continue to seek to be closer to God, walk after the Spirit, OBEY, and witness for Him, all of the things that God wants and commands. because you never know for sure until you are in possession of it, right?

 

[Gary]

My point is that it's not a done deal when one believes as many would suggest. Ultimately, salvation is the resurrection and receiving eternal life. Until that happens one is not truly saved. Paul in Ephesians, tells us that the holy Spirit is given to the believer as a "down payment" until the redemption of the purchased possession.

I'm pretty much with you on that. There's too many scriptures that speak of enduring until the end, overcoming, keep your faith, and work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for me to easily dismiss them and say oh, I'm saved and OSAS blah blah blah. Oh it's a great thought and idea for OSAS, but that scripture that says in that day many will say Lord Lord, and I will say I never knew you. That's scary. There will be no debating with God on that day.

And those scriptures which speak of one having their name blotted out, sure there's much debate about the correct interpretation of them, but one thing stands clear about it....scary. We are instructed to pray that we are found to be worthy to be able to stand in the front of the Son of man even. I tell you, until I hear those words, well done thou good and faithful servant...I'm going to remain fearful and very hesitant to say anything like Oh, I'm saved and God wouldn't do that to me.

I'd like to think that He wouldn't, but He's GOD and will do with me what He will. Lord be with me and let no one snatch me from your hand.

 

[Gary]

...because you never know for sure until you are in possession of it, right?

Right.

.

 

[OzSpen]

There's a difference between knowing one has it and actually being in possession of it. A child with a million dollar trust fund has a million dollars, however, until he meets the conditions of that fund he doesn't have possession of that fund. If you take notice, John is the only one who uses eternal life in the present tense, I believe this is significant.

My statement isn't contradicted, it's pretty straight forward that eternal life means one doesn't die, if one dies he doesn't have eternal life. What is there that is not correct. A claim that one is now in possession of eternal life is in contradiction with other passages of Scripture.

I notice you didn't use any Scriptures to support your position. I did.

That John should use the present tense is what God, the author of Scripture (2 Tim 3:15-16 ESV ), states. You stated: 'There's a difference between knowing one has it and actually being in possession of it'. This is not true in my case. I know I have one Toyota Camry and do you know what? I'm actually in possession of it.

Perhaps we are dealing with two different issues. We can continue to know NOW that we have eternal life (as 1 John 5:13 affirms) and we have the ultimate consummation of eternal life at Christ's second coming.

 

[Butch5]

That's the rub, right here. We can know that we have been saved and believe it (You better!), and the enemy will whisper to you that you don't, not good enough and so forth...and we shouldn't listen to this...but at the same time we shouldn't be lackadaisically over confident and should continue to seek to be closer to God, walk after the Spirit, OBEY, and witness for Him, all of the things that God wants and commands. because you never know for sure until you are in possession of it, right?

I believe what we have is the promise of eternal life. If we believe and follow Christ I believe we can be know that we will be raised in the resurrection. However, I don't believe that we are in possession of that life now. By definition eternal life means one won't die, if one is going to die I don't see how they can be in possession of eternal life.

 

[OzSpen]

because you never know for sure until you are in possession of it, right?

But 1 John 5:13 ESV says we are in possession now. We will have a new experience of eternal life when we are 'absent from the body and present with the Lord' at death and then at Christ's second coming it will be the ULTIMATE.

 

[Gregg]

It does? How's that? Besides, He said He had only come to Israel.

"seeing" θεωρέω Strongs #2334

It is the same Greek word is used for "perceive" in this verse, "The woman [a Samaritan] said to Him, Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet" (John 4:19).

 

[Butch5]

I notice you didn't use any Scriptures to support your position. I did.

That John should use the present tense is what God, the author of Scripture (2 Tim 3:15-16 ESV ), states. You stated: 'There's a difference between knowing one has it and actually being in possession of it'. This is not true in my case. I know I have one Toyota Camry and do you know what? I'm actually in possession of it.

Perhaps we are dealing with two different issues. We can continue to know NOW that we have eternal life (as 1 John 5:13 affirms) and we have the ultimate consummation of eternal life at Christ's second coming.

Oz,

If you worked today you earned money, correct? However, I'll bet you have to wait until the check is written to obtain that money that is yours. You quoted 2 Tim 3:16, when Paul wrote that the Scriptures were the OT.

I didn't post Scripture because I didn't think it was necessary since by definition eternal life means one won't die and we know Christians die. However, I can post Scripture.

29 So Jesus answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's,
30 "who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time-- houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions-- and in the age to come, eternal life. (Mar 10:29-30 NKJ)

Jesus said it is in the age to come.

11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. (1Ti 6:11-12 NKJ)

Why would Paul tell Timothy to lay hold of eternal life if he already had it?

NKJ Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness,
2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior; (Tit 1:1-3 NKJ)

Why would Paul be in hope of eternal life if he already had it?

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Tit 3:4-7 NKJ)

Heirs of eternal life? An heir hasn't received his inheritance yet.

And here is John also pointing to eternal life in the future,

20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
(Jud 1:20-21 NKJ)

Jesus' statement is probably clearest when He says that eternal life is in the age to come.

 

[Butch5]

"seeing" θεωρέω Strongs #2334

It is the same Greek word is used for "perceive" in this verse, "The woman [a Samaritan] said to Him, Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet" (John 4:19).

I understand that but the word also means to look at. Jesus was there speaking to these people and they could see Him. If you're going to say that by it He meant perceive, I think you need to explain why He meant perceived rather than see.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

If you worked today you earned money, correct? However, I'll bet you have to wait until the check is written to obtain that money that is yours. You quoted 2 Tim 3:16, when Paul wrote that the Scriptures were the OT.

I didn't post Scripture because I didn't think it was necessary since by definition eternal life means one won't die and we know Christians die. However, I can post Scripture.

Using another analogy is not helpful as I can come back with another view. If I work as a backpacker picking oranges, I get my wages the day I pick the oranges because he may not need me tomorrow or for the rest of the week. Analogy after analogy does not answer the issue.

So what if 2 Tim 3:16 ESV does refer to the Scriptures of the OT as theopneustos (breathed out by God)? They do refer to the OT. However, are you inferring that the Scriptures of the NT are not breathed out by God? We know what Peter said about Paul's writings:

And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures (2 Pt 3:15-16 ESV ).​

Peter put Paul's writings on the same level as 'the other Scriptures', presumably referring to the OT.

So what's the meaning of eternal? There are a couple different meanings in Scripture. When applied to God, eternal means that God has no beginning, no end and no succession of moments in his being. Yet God sees events in time and acts in time and eternity (see Wayne Grudem's definition in Systematic Theology, Zondervan 1994:168). Psalm 90:2 ESV puts it as 'from everlasting to everlasting you are God'.

This we know about eternal life:

1 John 5:11-12 NET And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has this eternal life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have this eternal life.​

If we are 'in his Son', we currently have eternal life. The one who 'has the Son' currently has eternal life and the one who does not currently 'have the Son of God does not have eternal life'.

I'm indeed grateful that when I was saved and Jesus gave me new life (2 Cor 5 17 ESV ) my eternal life began. But the nature of that 'eternal life' is different from when I speak of the 'eternal God' who is from everlasting to everlasting. I expect to bask in the full benefits of that eternal life at death and in the eternal kingdom of God.

Oz

 

[Gregg]

I understand that but the word also means to look at. Jesus was there speaking to these people and they could see Him. If you're going to say that by it He meant perceive, I think you need to explain why He meant perceived rather than see.

Seeing God with physical eyes does not lead to salvation, but He is at work in the hearts of men giving them understanding and conviction through their spiritual eyes. Spiritual sight united with faith leads to salvation. "All" and "everyone" in Jn 6:37-40 applies to men throughout this age. "I shall not lose any of it" (Jn 6:39) applies to all Christians.

 

[Edward]

I may be in possession of salvation right now, because I am in Christ and He in me, however...after He returns...and we are changed in the twinkling of an eye...that'll be a significant thing, will it not?! Oh, yes praise the Lord!!

(Thanks Gary!)

 

[Butch5]

Using another analogy is not helpful as I can come back with another view. If I work as a backpacker picking oranges, I get my wages the day I pick the oranges because he may not need me tomorrow or for the rest of the week. Analogy after analogy does not answer the issue.

Yes, it depends on the conditions that are set.

So what if 2 Tim 3:16 ESV does refer to the Scriptures of the OT as theopneustos (breathed out by God)? They do refer to the OT. However, are you inferring that the Scriptures of the NT are not breathed out by God? We know what Peter said about Paul's writings:

And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures (2 Pt 3:15-16 ESV ).​

Peter put Paul's writings on the same level as 'the other Scriptures', presumably referring to the OT.

That's in context, using 2 Tim 3:16 doesn't address the NT.

So what's the meaning of eternal? There are a couple different meanings in Scripture. When applied to God, eternal means that God has no beginning, no end and no succession of moments in his being. Yet God sees events in time and acts in time and eternity (see Wayne Grudem's definition in Systematic Theology, Zondervan 1994:168). Psalm 90:2 ESV puts it as 'from everlasting to everlasting you are God'.

This we know about eternal life:

1 John 5:11-12 NET And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has this eternal life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have this eternal life.​

If we are 'in his Son', we currently have eternal life. The one who 'has the Son' currently has eternal life and the one who does not currently 'have the Son of God does not have eternal life'.

I'm indeed grateful that when I was saved and Jesus gave me new life (2 Cor 5 17 ESV ) my eternal life began. But the nature of that 'eternal life' is different from when I speak of the 'eternal God' who is from everlasting to everlasting. I expect to bask in the full benefits of that eternal life at death and in the eternal kingdom of God.

Oz

Can you show me where eternal is in the Bible?

Please explain to me how a person who is going to die has eternal life.

You didn't address any of the passages I posted. Jesus explicitly stated aionios life is in the age to come. How do you reconcile the passages I posted?