Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Gregg]

Gregg,

What I meant was that we have to reconcile all of the passages with out theology. If eternal life begins in the present, one, why do believers die and two how do you reconcile that statement with these words from Jesus?

29 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
30 "who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life." (Luk 18:29-30 NKJ

In this passage Jesus contrasts the things believers will receive in this present age and the age to come. Eternal life is in the age to come according to this statement from Jesus.

Lk 18:30 does not exclude "eternal life" beginning in this age.

I don't disagree with that. However, as I said in the other post, the other fold is not identified. All we can do is speculate who they are, there is no way we can say with certainty that it is any particular group.

But we do not need to speculate what "this fold" refers to in Jn 10:16, as you say Jesus came to Israel only. Then, by your own saying, "other" must not refer to Israel. As I said it refers to Gentiles, all that is not Israel.

 

[Butch5]

Lk 18:30 does not exclude "eternal life" beginning in this age.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you. The passages explicitly says, in the age to come. He states what is in this age and the age to come and eternal life is in the age to come. As a matter of fact the only thing He states about the age to come is eternal life. If eternal life was in this age there would be no need to even mention the age to come.

But we do not need to speculate what "this fold" refers to in Jn 10:16, as you say Jesus came to Israel only. Then, by your own saying, "other" must not refer to Israel. As I said it refers to Gentiles, all that is not Israel.

I disagree, If it's not stated then it's speculation. If anything I think the fact that He said He had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel would exclude the Gentiles from being that other fold.

 

[Gregg]

I disagree, If it's not stated then it's speculation. If anything I think the fact that He said He had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel would exclude the Gentiles from being that other fold.

In your way of thinking, is there anything that Jesus spoke that applies directly to Gentiles or directly to the Church?

 

[Butch5]

In your way of thinking, is there anything that Jesus spoke that applies directly to Gentiles or directly to the Church?

Yeah, but it has to flow logically from the text. Supposed you were reading an American history book and you saw a quote from George Washington saying we all have muskets. I doubt that you would assume from that statement that every American today has a musket. However, that is just how many Christians approach the Scriptures. They'll take any passage that involves a Christians and apply it universally to all Christians. Many times that is simply incorrect. Not everything in the Scriptures that is addressed to a Christian has universal application. For instance, many Christians will take the passage in John where Jesus said, 'you did not choose me but I have chosen you', and they'll apply that universally and say no one can choose Christ. Well, that passage was spoken to a specific group of people, it is not a universal statement. I will sometimes ask those same Christians, if everything applies to Christians how do you address that passage where Paul calls the believers in Corinth carnal? He tells the Corinthians that they are carnal, does that mean all Christians universally are carnal. Usually at this point they start backtracking. The problem is that they are not consistent in their exegesis, they pick the passages they want to apply to them and either ignore or reject those that don't. That's why context is so important.

As I pointed out, Jesus said He was only sent to Israel. Therefore what He said would apply to Israel, so how do I make a connection between what applies to Israel and what applies to Christian or the church? It's from Jesus' own words. In giving the great commission He said,

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen1. (Mat 28:19-20 NKJ)

Jesus told the apostles to go to the nations (ethnos-Gentiles) and to teach them all that He had commanded them. So, Jesus' teachings apply to Christians and the church. However, His statements to individual Jews about what was happening at a particular time may not. He taught the apostles to forgive, therefore Christians are to forgive. However, when He said, 'you have not chosen me but I have chosen you' He was speaking to those specific people and that does not apply to Christians.

 

[jeff77]

I think eternal life begins in the age to come. I don't think "eternal life" is only talking about never ending. I think the eternal life its speaking of is also the quality of life in heaven or the new heaven/earth kingdom.

 

[Butch5]

I think eternal life begins in the age to come. I don't think "eternal life" is only talking about never ending. I think the eternal life its speaking of is also the quality of life in heaven or the new heaven/earth kingdom.

That's the only way I've found to reconcile all of the passages that deal with the subject.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Hi Gregg, I didn't say you have Jesus saying that. Jesus did say that eternal life is in the age to come. Here's the problem as I see it. Some have posted John saying we have (present tense) eternal life now. However, Jesus said eternal life is in the age to come. If we are to come to the truth of Scripture we need to reconcile these passages. So, the question is how do we reconcile these passages?

Hi Butch5

When is/was this 'age to come'? We do read about the 'ages', so which age is it?

Was Jesus referring to His return (2nd coming) or at/after Pentecost?

 

[Gregg]

Yeah, but it has to flow logically from the text. Supposed you were reading an American history book and you saw a quote from George Washington saying we all have muskets. I doubt that you would assume from that statement that every American today has a musket. However, that is just how many Christians approach the Scriptures. They'll take any passage that involves a Christians and apply it universally to all Christians. Many times that is simply incorrect. Not everything in the Scriptures that is addressed to a Christian has universal application. For instance, many Christians will take the passage in John where Jesus said, 'you did not choose me but I have chosen you', and they'll apply that universally and say no one can choose Christ. Well, that passage was spoken to a specific group of people, it is not a universal statement. I will sometimes ask those same Christians, if everything applies to Christians how do you address that passage where Paul calls the believers in Corinth carnal? He tells the Corinthians that they are carnal, does that mean all Christians universally are carnal. Usually at this point they start backtracking. The problem is that they are not consistent in their exegesis, they pick the passages they want to apply to them and either ignore or reject those that don't. That's why context is so important.

As I pointed out, Jesus said He was only sent to Israel. Therefore what He said would apply to Israel, so how do I make a connection between what applies to Israel and what applies to Christian or the church? It's from Jesus' own words. In giving the great commission He said,

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen1. (Mat 28:19-20 NKJ)

Jesus told the apostles to go to the nations (ethnos-Gentiles) and to teach them all that He had commanded them. So, Jesus' teachings apply to Christians and the church. However, His statements to individual Jews about what was happening at a particular time may not. He taught the apostles to forgive, therefore Christians are to forgive. However, when He said, 'you have not chosen me but I have chosen you' He was speaking to those specific people and that does not apply to Christians.

Jesus said this to the Jews about eternal life in Him, "You search the Scriptures, for you think in them you have everlasting life; and they are the ones witnessing concerning Me" (Jn 5:39). In your way of thinking, would the Holy Spirit apply this verse directly to someone now living?

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5

When is/was this 'age to come'? We do read about the 'ages', so which age is it?

Was Jesus referring to His return (2nd coming) or at/after Pentecost?

24 And when Jesus saw that he became very sorrowful, He said, "How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!
25 "For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26 And those who heard it said, "Who then can be saved?"
27 But He said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."
28 Then Peter said, "See, we have left all1 and followed You."
29 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
30 "who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life."
(Luk 18:24-30 NKJ)

 

[Butch5]

Jesus said this to the Jews about eternal life in Him, "You search the Scriptures, for you think in them you have everlasting life; and they are the ones witnessing concerning Me" (Jn 5:39). In your way of thinking, would the Holy Spirit apply this verse directly to someone now living?

I'm not sure quite what you're asking Gregg.

 

[Dustoftheearth]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you. The passages explicitly says, in the age to come. He states what is in this age and the age to come and eternal life is in the age to come. As a matter of fact the only thing He states about the age to come is eternal life. If eternal life was in this age there would be no need to even mention the age to come.





I disagree, If it's not stated then it's speculation. If anything I think the fact that He said He had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel would exclude the Gentiles from being that other fold.

Hi Butch5

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

1Pe 2:25 For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

1Pe 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

If Jesus Christ is our Chief Shepherd, then are we not His sheep?

If the Shepherd laid down His life for the sheep (Israel only) does that mean He did not lay down His life for us Gentiles also?

 

[Dustoftheearth]

24 And when Jesus saw that he became very sorrowful, He said, "How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!
25 "For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26 And those who heard it said, "Who then can be saved?"
27 But He said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."
28 Then Peter said, "See, we have left all1 and followed You."
29 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
30 "who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life."
(Luk 18:24-30 NKJ)

The 'present time', is that not when Jesus was yet with them, and the age to come being the Church age?

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

1Pe 2:25 For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

1Pe 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

If Jesus Christ is our Chief Shepherd, then are we not His sheep?

If the Shepherd laid down His life for the sheep (Israel only) does that mean He did not lay down His life for us Gentiles also?

Hi Dustoftheearth,

First Peter was written to Jewish believers. Not necessarily. The question is how does it play out logistically.

 

[Butch5]

The 'present time', is that not when Jesus was yet with them, and the age to come being the Church age?

I suppose that is a possible understanding from our standpoint. However, it is the Scriptures that determine what the ages are. The passage speaks of entering the kingdom of God which seems to be the age spoken of.

 

[jeff77]

The 'present time', is that not when Jesus was yet with them, and the age to come being the Church age?

Do you think that the "eternal life" in scripture is something different than the life we are living right now?

 

[veryberry]

Do you think that the "eternal life" in scripture is something different than the life we are living right now?

Jesus Christ is eternal. His life is eternal. No beginning, no ending. We, as justified unto eternal life believers, now possess the very life of Jesus Christ which is eternal.

Being baptized into Jesus Christ by the holy Spirit when we believed his death, burial, and resurrection, we now possess his perfect holiness, his perfect righteousness, his sinless life on earth, his everything. What people need to realize is that Jesus Christ has already suffered death for us, suffered the wrath of God for us(why is it that we are to go through wrath?). He has paid all that we so deserve, yet salvation is on us somehow? As it is written, "Christ died for our sins, he was buried, He rose again the the third day". You believe it? Great, now you are saved and you can now move past salvation. Why are so many people stuck on salvation? God has made salvation so easy for a reason...because salvation is only the beginning of a very big picture. But the policy of evil wants us to be stuck somewhere. Don't you know that we must be about our Father's business? How are we to reconcile the heavenlies and bring much glory to our Father if we can't get past salvation, if we can't get past the sanctified lives we already possess, the eternal life we already possess?

 

[jeff77]

Jesus Christ is eternal. His life is eternal. No beginning, no ending. We, as justified unto eternal life believers, now possess the very life of Jesus Christ which is eternal.

Being baptized into Jesus Christ by the holy Spirit when we believed his death, burial, and resurrection, we now possess his perfect holiness, his perfect righteousness, his sinless life on earth, his everything. What people need to realize is that Jesus Christ has already suffered death for us, suffered the wrath of God for us(why is it that we are to go through wrath?). He has paid all that we so deserve, yet salvation is on us somehow? As it is written, "Christ died for our sins, he was buried, He rose again the the third day". You believe it? Great, now you are saved and you can now move past salvation. Why are so many people stuck on salvation? God has made salvation so easy for a reason...because salvation is only the beginning of a very big picture. But the policy of evil wants us to be stuck somewhere. Don't you know that we must be about our Father's business? How are we to reconcile the heavenlies and bring much glory to our Father if we can't get past salvation, if we can't get past the sanctified lives we already possess, the eternal life we already possess?

What I am saying is...life in heaven will be very different than the life we are in right now. The quality of it. I'm not sure what you mean about getting past salvation? I believe I am saved now. I don't think that death is anything to fear because we start eternal life right after death. You could think of it as moving from one place to another.

 

[gr8grace3]

Jesus Christ is eternal. His life is eternal. No beginning, no ending. We, as justified unto eternal life believers, now possess the very life of Jesus Christ which is eternal.

Being baptized into Jesus Christ by the holy Spirit when we believed his death, burial, and resurrection, we now possess his perfect holiness, his perfect righteousness, his sinless life on earth, his everything. What people need to realize is that Jesus Christ has already suffered death for us, suffered the wrath of God for us(why is it that we are to go through wrath?). He has paid all that we so deserve, yet salvation is on us somehow? As it is written, "Christ died for our sins, he was buried, He rose again the the third day". You believe it? Great, now you are saved and you can now move past salvation. Why are so many people stuck on salvation? God has made salvation so easy for a reason...because salvation is only the beginning of a very big picture. But the policy of evil wants us to be stuck somewhere. Don't you know that we must be about our Father's business? How are we to reconcile the heavenlies and bring much glory to our Father if we can't get past salvation, if we can't get past the sanctified lives we already possess, the eternal life we already possess?

This is a good post. This world does not want believers to move on to Spiritual maturity. This world tries to convince believers that they can lose salvation, that they are not perfect in Gods eyes(Christ in us). We have eternal life the moment we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and this world wants to strip believers of that Joy and blessing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...yet salvation is on us somehow?

You have to trust in God's forgiveness, and you have to trust in it to the very end--that is how salvation is 'somehow' on you. People who are keenly aware of the forgiveness they have received in Christ, and stay keenly aware of it are the one's who produce the fruit of the kingdom and are saved on the Day of Wrath. They are the one's who ask themselves when temptation comes, "how can I sin and do the very things God has forgiven me for?" And out of gratitude to God for his unmerited mercy and grace they extend that same mercy and grace to others and thus fulfill the end goal of God's law which is to 'love your neighbor as yourself'.

All that is pretty hard to do...no, impossible to do...if you have lost sight of, and faith in the forgiveness you have received in Christ. That's why you have to have faith to the very end to be saved by that faith. And because they do that, they are the one's who have and walk in the eternal life that faith secures.

Eternal life is not just a never ending life in a never ending kingdom. Eternal life is a quality of life, and a life that is contingent on obedient faith.

"21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."" (John 1:21 NAS)

10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 11 "These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

See? The manifest abundance of God's love for you and his promise of eternal life (think quality of life) is obedience. But so many people think that since salvation is so utterly not of us, but of God alone (for all that means to them) that they have God's eternal life while they live a life of hit and miss obedience. It's a doctrine of 'if I can be obedient I will be, but it doesn't matter since salvation is by faith alone'. A doctrine that has effectively turned grace into a license to sin, all the while believing that you have eternal life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is a good post. This world does not want believers to move on to Spiritual maturity. This world tries to convince believers that they can lose salvation, that they are not perfect in Gods eyes(Christ in us). We have eternal life the moment we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and this world wants to strip believers of that Joy and blessing.

Now read in my last post what Jesus said you must do to have his joy and blessing.

It's actually the church that is stripping believers of Christ's joy and blessing (eternal life) by telling them that it is not contingent on what they do. That's not what Jesus said. The manifest joy and blessing of God--his eternal life--now and in the life to come, is contingent on your obedient faith.