Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Butch5]

Yeah that is interesting Butch.

Hi Agua,

I find it interesting that a lot of what Augustine postulated was accepted by the church yet this doctrine was rejected. That speaks volumes to me.

 

[gr8grace3]

That's correct, they ARE NOT saying that. But You are.



That's correct. In fact, look closely at what you just said. You yourself don't even think you OBTAIN salvation by a continuing process, right? At least at times you say as much.

I thought it was your position that believers become saved, obtained via their initial true (held fast) belief on which they stand, (versus a vain belief which some people might have) then you go on to explain how there is a Biblically defined 'continuing process' of de-salvation. Oh, and that process is once De-saved, always De-saved.

But Indeed these are independent verses and speak for themselves.

WRT Col 1:

You might notice that every Bible translation that finds it useful to title sections of Scripture, titles the section of Col 1 (that has the phrase "moved away from the hope of the Gospel" as:

LEB: Prayer For Maturity Based On Christ's Preeminence
ESV: The Preeminence of Christ [not man's preeminence]
HSCB: Prayer For Spiritual Growth
NASB: The Incomparable Christ
NIV: The Supremacy of The Son Of God

Oh, and my point is not that these translation committees are in-fallible but rather that it's quite obvious that Paul's on the subject of maturing at the time. Maturing toward the first/preeminent, incomparable non-sinner. Now there's a goal to strive for. Sometimes we take two steps forward and one step backwards, shifting away from that goal at times. No wonder Paul prayed for those Christians. He knew the thorns Christians face.

WRT the 1 Cor passage that you meld with that Col's phrase (shift from hope), sure that one is about salvation. I mean it's 1 Cor 15!

1 Corinthians 15:1 Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed to you, which you have also received, in which you also stand, ​

I noticed it does contain the word "saved" in the verse you quoted as well, which is notably lacking from the Col 1 passage, by the way. I also notice it does NOT say anything about how to become un-saved, but you do about that verse.

I mean, it literally (plainly, as you say) tells people how to be saved. What it does not say, is how to become un-saved:

1 Corinthians 15:2b—unless you believed in vain. ​

Quick pole here for the OSAS crowd and the non-OSAS crowd and the independents:

Anybody think that Paul thinks you can be saved via a vain belief in Christ? I don't.

Brother JB, a Christian shifting in hope is a far cry from a person who had a vain belief to begin with. (Notice the tense of the verbs!)

You will not convince me otherwise about these two independent verses. I've throughly looked at both in their independent contexts and reject your take on them even if you quote them side by side and then compare them to a parable(or two or three).

But you have the right to carry on with your exegesis of these verses as you see fit. I simply disagree with your take and feel there's more than ample evidence against your take on these two verses and the "spit you out" one too.

BTW, a parable would be a very odd context to find a De-salvation doctrine since Jesus 'plainly' says He spoke to the Pharisees in parables specifically that way so they WOULD NOT hear His Words and believe them to their Messianic Salvation in the first place. Much less hear Him teach about their de-salvation in them.

But whatever, their interpretations and re-interpretations are a broad spectrum of ideas.

Your spot on with the 2 verses that are being used to "prove" de-salvation.

Col verse being used is a maturity in Christ verse or a teachers(Of the word) verse. Some of us will not be blameless and above reproach at the Bema seat of Christ.Still at the seat and saved though. 2 Cor 5:10

Cor verse being used is a debaters technique verse. ........unless you have believed in vain....... to assume a falsehood is true to prove it false.

 

[Butch5]

Yes.

Where does it says these younger self-indulgent 'widows' had 'faith in Christ'?

I don't find it there. That's my point.

Ok, if one doesn't have faith how can they cast it off?

11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. (1Ti 5:11-12 KJV)

 

[gr8grace3]

Hi Chessman,

Yeah, I don't really quote those after the Ante-Nicene period for that reason. Once the church and state merges the church used the state to quite those who opposed them. However, one thing that I did notice is that Augustine who is popular among both Catholics and Protestants postulated the doctrine of "Perseverance of the Saints" which was rejected by the church, yet a lot of the other things he wrote were accepted.

Perseverance of the saints should be rejected by believers. Eternal security should be welcomed by believers.

The preserving of the saints, not perseverance of the saints.

Perseverance of the saints is EXACTLY the same thing as Losing salvation doctrine. Both require works. It is just that one says," you really were not saved at the end because you did not persevere." the other says, " You really are not saved because you are not persevering right now."

Eternal security says, " You are saved once you believe and you continue to be saved whether you do good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10~~For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

 

[Butch5]

Perseverance of the saints should be rejected by believers. Eternal security should be welcomed by believers.

The preserving of the saints, not perseverance of the saints.

Perseverance of the saints is EXACTLY the same thing as Losing salvation doctrine. Both require works. It is just that one says," you really were not saved at the end because you did not persevere." the other says, " You really are not saved because you are not persevering right now."

Eternal security says, " You are saved once you believe and you continue to be saved whether you do good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10~~For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

I don't believe that is what Augustine posited. If he had based it on works the Catholic church probably wouldn't have rejected it as they were a works based church.

However, OSAS also should be rejected for multiple reasons. One that it has no record of acceptance until the Reformation. There is also the issue that it is based on a false premise, that being the one is saved when they believe. OSAS requires a point in time salvation which is contrary to the Scriptures. The Scriptures show that salvation is the end of a journey.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's correct. In fact, look closely at what you just said. You yourself don't even think you OBTAIN salvation by a continuing process, right? At least at times you say as much.

I thought it was your position that believers become saved, obtained via their initial true (held fast) belief on which they stand, (versus a vain belief which some people might have) then you go on to explain how there is a Biblically defined 'continuing process' of de-salvation.

Through faith you have the sure promise of salvation. A salvation that starts now through which you begin to enjoy the benefits of via the Holy Spirit. As long as you have faith you got it.

Your problem is you are still stuck in the circular reasoning of the OSAS argument...."oh, they're saved, that means they can't lose their salvation." Every time you see the word 'salvation' you automatically think 'that means saved forever'. But that is exactly what we are trying to discern from scripture--if salvation in this life means you can't lose it in this life. You can't use the answer that is in debate to prove what the answer is, lol. And I see you and others doing that.

And for the life of me, I can't see what discernment beyond the plain words written here-- http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/colossians/passage.aspx?q=colossians 1:22-23--is required to see that the promise of the kingdom to come is determined by your continued believing, not a one-time confession of faith that may or may not endure to the end. OSAS has unbelievers (who once believed, but who do not now) entering the kingdom of heaven. But at the same time they argue that God keeps believers believing.

OSAS simply does not stand up to honest scrutiny.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Dear Brother Jethro, I reckon we’re just at different thoughts as to the promises toward us who have believed on the Lord Jesus. Peace in Christ Jesus.

1 Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Rom 6:23 . . the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Nobody's arguing this. You gain the life that will never end when you believe. But the condition for keeping it in this life is that you continue to believe. It's a life that is eternal that no one can take away from you now (or in the life to come), as long as you keep believing. As long as you're believing, you have the life God said is eternal and never-ending. Just because it's never-ending doesn't mean it doesn't have a condition of continued faith attached to it. What kind of logic is that? Even a lotto winner knows that the promise of the weekly payout for the rest of his lifetime (in effect a payout that is 'never ending') depends on whether or not he hangs onto the winning ticket. The 'never ending' payout he has surely won ENDS if he loses the ticket that guarantees and ensures that payout.

 

[Butch5]

There's another issue with OSAS that I don't think many have considered, that is the misuse of the word "believe." Many times Christians will see the logical problems presented by their theology but rather than question their theology they try to redefine words. For instance, we see statements like, 'you have to have a heart knowledge and not a head knowledge' of Christ to be saved. What is a heart knowledge? He heart doesn't have reasoning capacities. This is just a redefining of terms in an attempt to reconcile a logical contradiction. There is no such thing as heart knowledge. We see a similar situation with the "No True Scotts man Fallacy." This is when one redefines terms to meet a condition. For instance, person one says, "all horses are brown". Person two says, "I have a white horse." Person one says, "all true horses are brown."
The fallacy is this, a universal statement is made and when an exception is found to the statement, rather than admit the statement is wrong, the terms are redefined to exclude the exception. This is what we commonly see in the OSAS argument. The statement is made that a believer can't lose salvation, then when it is shown that a believer is not living according to the Gospel, it is said that he was not a "True" believer. Rather than admit that he was a believer and went astray, the terms are changed and a Christian is no longer a believer but rather a "true" believer.

Now, back to the misuse of believe. Many say one is saved when they believe the Gospel, but is that what the Scriptures teach. I submit that many are using the English word believe rather than the Greek word "Pisteuo". Let's look at what Paul had to say.

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) {They...: Gr. If they shall enter}
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. (Heb 3:7-19 KJV)

Paul here is talking about the Israelites in the wilderness. Is there anyone who is going to say that these people didn't believe in God? These people had witnessed the plagues in Egypt, they had witnessed the mountain shake when God came down, they say the cloud by day and the fire by night. These people saw the Red Sea part and they crossed on dry land. These people ate manna for years in the desert and saw the water from the rock. These people saw that their clothes didn't wear out, they witnessed event after event where God intervened on their behalf, surely they believed in God. Why then does Paul say they could not enter because of unbelief? It's because Paul is not using the English word believe which is commonly understood as mental assent. He's using Pisteuo that carries the idea of being faithful . Being faithful requires action not just thought. The reason the people couldn't enter the land is because they did not trust God to rid the land of their enemies. God had told them He would drive out their enemies before them, yet, when the 12 spies returned 10 said they couldn't take the land and the people sided with the 10 spies and complained against Moses. That is the unbelief for which they were rejected, if was not a mental assent but rather a refusal to trust God to do what He said He would do. This is the same belief that one must have to be saved, it's not a mental assent to some facts, it's placing one's trust in Christ and remaining faithful to Him.

 

[Eugene]

OSAS simply does not stand up to honest scrutiny.

Honest, from a man that sins? What occurs in your life of faith that makes you willfully sin? With that mindset, I can just see the ones going over the speed limit possibly on their way to hell because they lost faith and denied the ordained power of God Rom 13:1, and they may have even kept days and feasts they thought were saving them. Can't you just see the rich young man here asking what they must do to inherit eternal life?

Oh the tangled web we weave when at first we try to deceive huh? You see. it is by our our works others know us, but it is Jesus in us that we are judged by as to our worthiness. If God looks at any part of our lives based on what we are outside of Christ's righteousness it would have to be according Rom 3:23, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Oh my huh?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Honest, from a man that sins? What occurs in your life of faith that makes you willfully sin?

Well, right off I'd have to think when the last time I willfully sinned occurred, but I assure you I have, and I will again. The point you're missing is when willful sins represents a conscious 'I don't care about the grace I have received', that is the denial of Christ that will cause one to forfeit the grace they have received.

Surely you know the story about when Esau said, "of what use then is the birthright to me?" (Genesis 25:32 NAS), rejecting that birthright in favor of the momentary and immediate satisfaction of his appetite, and as a result he lost that birthright:

"14 Pursue...sanctification without which no one will see the Lord (OSAS says you don't have to have that to see the Lord). 15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God (OSAS says you can come short of it)...16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal (OSAS says that's impossible to do). 17 For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected (OSAS says you can never be rejected), for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears." (Hebrews 13:14-17 NAS)

The author is plainly warning us, don't be like Esau! Don't lose your birthright through a careless indifference and contempt for the right of birth you have received in Christ.

With that mindset, I can just see the ones going over the speed limit possibly on their way to hell because they lost faith and denied the ordained power of God Rom 13:1...

No, lol. It's not about willfully sinning out of weakness, but sinning out of an indifference and contempt for the grace of God's forgiveness you have received.

...and they may have even kept days and feasts they thought were saving them. Can't you just see the rich young man here asking what they must do to inherit eternal life?

OSAS has helped the church believe that the faith that justifies all by itself doesn't have to result in faithful works. That somehow faith without works really does save, in complete contradiction to what James teaches.

You see. it is by our our works others know us...

But the OSAS church wants to still be known and named as Christians without faith, and the works of faith. It's interesting how the OSAS church insists you don't have to have faith or works to be saved, but then says it is by works that Christians are known as Christians.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Perseverance of the saints is EXACTLY the same thing as Losing salvation doctrine. Both require works.

Why does the church think that continuing in the 'work' of believing that saved them is the work that Paul said can not justifiy? Will somebody please show me in the Bible where 'believing' is among the works of the law that Paul said can not justify a person?

OSAS says that if you say you must continue to do the work of believing that saved you, you are guilty of trying to be justified by works. All I ask is for someone to show me where Paul said 'believing' is among the works that can not justify. Please, someone. Anyone.

It is just that one says," you really were not saved at the end because you did not persevere." the other says, " You really are not saved because you are not persevering right now."

Hmm. Not really sure how to untie that knot, lol.

Simply put, the Bible plainly says that to keep the hope of salvation you receive when you first believe, you must keep believing to the very end to keep what you received.

"22 ...yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:2-2 NAS)

Eternal security says, " You are saved once you believe and you continue to be saved whether you do good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10~~For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

But the scriptures also teach that if the bad that you do is denying Christ, the recompense that you will receive for doing that is Christ will deny you. The whole counsel of scripture, gr8, the whole counsel of God!

 

[Eugene]

Well, right off I'd have to think when the last time I willfully sinned occurred, but I assure you I have, and I will again. The point you're missing is when willful sins represents a conscious 'I don't care about the grace I have received', that is the denial of Christ that will cause one to forfeit the grace they have received.

Surely you know the story about when Esau said, "of what use then is the birthright to me?" (Genesis 25:32 NAS), rejecting that birthright in favor of the momentary and immediate satisfaction of his appetite, and as a result he lost that birthright:

"14 Pursue...sanctification without which no one will see the Lord (OSAS says you don't have to have that to see the Lord). 15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God (OSAS says you can come short of it)...16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal (OSAS says that's impossible to do). 17 For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected (OSAS says you can never be rejected), for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears." (Hebrews 13:14-17 NAS)

The author is plainly warning us, don't be like Esau! Don't lose your birthright through a careless indifference and contempt for the right of birth you have received in Christ.

No, lol. It's not about willfully sinning out of weakness, but sinning out of an indifference and contempt for the grace of God's forgiveness you have received.

OSAS has helped the church believe that the faith that justifies all by itself doesn't have to result in faithful works. That somehow faith without works really does save, in complete contradiction to what James teaches.

But the OSAS church wants to still be known and named as Christians without faith, and the works of faith. It's interesting how the OSAS church insists you don't have to have faith or works to be saved, but then says it is by works that Christians are known as Christians.

Again dear brother, I have no doubt you're saved irregardless of your propensity to sin. Now maybe there is a great big eye watching your excuses of weakness, but then one day will the hammer drop due to you continuing to drive one mile over the speed limit? Moses was righteous in all his house, but he didn't believe God and ended being corrected for it by going up to the mount and dying and not entering the land he led the children of Israel for forty years. This indeed became a sin unto death, but we see him on the mount of transfiguration even considering his direct lapse of faith. You mention James and his faith without works is dead is speaking of a dead faith. The works any produce is their reputation before man; we'll know them by their fruits, and God rewards the righteous works of saints as His wife who has made herself ready in Rev 19:7-8.

Have you ever thought on:
1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

But then in:
1 Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God (Jesus) keepeth himself, and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.

The battle is the Lord's:
Psa 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Psa 18:36 Thou hast enlarged my steps under me, that my feet did not slip.

Finally: As the Holy Spirit said unto Judah and Jerusalem, I like to associate the standard of our protection against failure with the multitude of doubt that may come to us in trials
2 Ch 20:15 And he said, Hearken ye, all Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem, and thou king Jehoshaphat, Thus saith the Lord . . . Be not afraid nor dismayed by reason of this great multitude; for the battle is not yours, but God's. If God would fail it is something I cannot fathom because my will is not more powerful than God direction for me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now maybe there is a great big eye watching your excuses of weakness, but then one day will the hammer drop due to you continuing to drive one mile over the speed limit?

If you had understood my post you'd know that the answer to that is 'no'.

Denying Christ is what causes the 'hammer to drop'.

Moses was righteous in all his house, but he didn't believe God and ended being corrected for it by going up to the mount and dying and not entering the land he led the children of Israel for forty years. This indeed became a sin unto death but we see him on the mount of transfiguration even considering his direct lapse of faith.

His was not a sin unto spiritual death. He did not deny God.

He is a picture of Christ. He, like Christ, was cut off because of the people: 21 "Now the LORD was angry with me on your account..." (Deuteronomy 4:21 NAS). It's a picture of how Christ was 'cut off' because of our sin. Moses did not deny God.

... You mention James and his faith without works is dead is speaking of a dead faith. The works any produce is their reputation before man; we'll know them by their fruits...

Let's not ignore the point I was making, that he says faith without works can not save a person. But OSAS goes so far as to say once a person gets saved they don't have to have either works, or faith to be saved. But then they will turn right around and say God makes sure you stay in the faith. Confusing doctrine.

Have you ever thought on:
1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

This would mean something to this discussion if he had said 'we deceive ourselves if we say we do not deny Christ'. The argument is not about just sinning. It's about sinning the sin of denying Christ. An altogether different matter that OSAS can not understand.

But then in:
1 Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God (Jesus) keepeth himself, and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.

Right. Everybody who clings to God in faith is kept by God. This is not in debate. But OSAS goes so far to claim that you can stop trusting in Christ and God will still 'keep' you. In other words, that person, who has neither faith nor works will still be saved, because they say that's how utterly of God salvation is. So much so you can even stop believing and you're still saved. The fear being that if you say that you have to keep believing you are now trying to earn your own salvation. That is ridiculous. Paul did NOT teach that believing is like the works of the law and constitutes the damnable works gospel. He said believing is the very thing that DOES justify! But somehow we have assigned that 'work'--if we say we have to do it to the end--to that of trying to earn your own salvation. That is absurd.

 

[Eugene]

@Jethro Boodine, I hope one day you find eternal life brother.

 

[agua.]

Hi Agua,

I find it interesting that a lot of what Augustine postulated was accepted by the church yet this doctrine was rejected. That speaks volumes to me.

Do you realize how ironic that sounds Butch. ie. Do you consider that Augustine may have been correct ?

 

[chessman]

Ok, if one doesn't have faith how can they cast it off?

11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. (1Ti 5:11-12 KJV)

Might I suggest you read all of that chapter in another translation or two of your choosing and get back to me on what Paul's subject is and thus his point in verse 12.

Even in the KJV, we can tell Paul's point is not really salvific within the context of the one sentence. What's up with "refuse the younger widows"? Refuse them of what? Their salvation or their church sponsored financial/physical support?

It would be a very odd flow of thought for Paul to suddenly stop talking about how to treat widows in the church (take in true widows, cast off false widows) to suddenly interject a teaching on how one becomes unsaved. Or more precisely on your view of the phrase, how young widows lose their salvation).

And he's not. He's talking about a widow's physical desires and telling the church to NOT take them under their financial care (cast the away). Brother, this has nothing to do with God un-saving people (or widows).

1 Timothy 5:5-6, 11-12 But the widow who is one truly, and is left alone, has put her hope in God and continues in her petitions and prayers night and day. But the one who lives for sensual pleasure is dead even though she lives.
...

But refuse younger widows, for whenever their physical desires lead them away from Christ, they want to marry, thus incurring condemnation because they have broken their former pledge. ​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

@Jethro Boodine, I hope one day you find eternal life brother.

I am trusting and believing in Christ. I'm good.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you realize how ironic that sounds Butch. ie. Do you consider that Augustine may have been correct ?

The point is, the earliest church taught by the Apostles did not believe in the doctrine of OSAS.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...10 said they couldn't take the land and the people sided with the 10 spies and complained against Moses. That is the unbelief for which they were rejected, if was not a mental assent but rather a refusal to trust God to do what He said He would do. This is the same belief that one must have to be saved, it's not a mental assent to some facts, it's placing one's trust in Christ and remaining faithful to Him.

Good stuff.

The church needs to hear this.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Col verse being used is a maturity in Christ verse or a teachers(Of the word) verse. Some of us will not be blameless and above reproach at the Bema seat of Christ.

Then the passage also says some of us will not be reconciled either. You can't ignore that that is also there. Read it.