Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[chessman]

What does the underlined statement mean?

Paul says a true church widow is 1) one who has no children or grand-children that can (and should) take care of her and 2) one that "prays night and day" and 3) lost her husband.

He warns the church, however, of other 'widows' that yes, lost their husband (#3) but do not meet these other two criteria. Rather, they have their own 'faith' that pretty much is about their own self-indulgence.

 

[Butch5]

Paul says a true church widow is 1) one who has no children or grand-children that can (and should) take care of her and 2) one that "prays night and day" and 3) lost her husband.

He warns the church, however, of other 'widows' that yes, lost their husband (#3) but do not meet these other two criteria. Rather, they have their own 'faith' that pretty much is about their own self-indulgence.

Ok, what of those who have grown cold towards Christ and cast off their faith?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I can assure you that if there was a Scripture that said saved people can become un-saved, I'd have zero problem taking it to heart as truth. I follow truth, wherever it leads. On the other hand, it will not be the one that says people "escape the defilements of the world" or even the one that says people "shift from the hope of the Gospel", just because they kind of sound like they could be about losing salvation.

Kind of sound(s) like they could be about losing salvation?

"...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS)

"...He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:22-23 NAS)

Kind of? Really?

Why? Because those passages/phrases are not talking about losing one's inheritance in God's Kingdom. Thus, to tell people they are is in error.

If you actually take the time to read them in their context, they aren't saying people are losing salvation. That's my point.

These passages aren't saying people will lose their salvation if they don't continue to believe?

"...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS)

"...He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:22-23 NAS)

I'm sure you are right and there are many that do hold either view emotionally and stridently. Contrary to good Bible study.

And this is good Bible study to say these passages aren't about salvation, and the condition for continued believing to obtain it?

"...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS)

"...He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:22-23 NAS)

What the OSAS doctrine accomplishes is it teaches believers and unbelievers alike that the Bible really doesn't mean what it plainly says. In fact, it often really means the exact opposite of what it says. In this case it means even though it says if you don't continue in your faith in Christ you will lose the hope of salvation, it really means you will NOT lose the hope of your salvation.

 

[chessman]

What no one seem to want to address is the historical aspect of this issue. This idea that salvation cannot be lost was rejected by the church until the Reformation.

It's hard to 'debate' a point you agree with. I think you have a valid point there. The only thing I would say is, umm read all the Bible books/letters about the debates raging in the early church over things as silly as meat, circumcision, festivals, etc.

It seems to me, they liked to argue as much as we do, maybe more about most things.

Also, we may only have a handful of surviving ECF fathers' writings. The one's in control kept the books and wrote the history too. Who knows what was lost?

I've grown to respect some of them, others frankly I know for a fact got certain things wrong.

I also know that in the mid-years the ones that spoke against the grain were 'silenced' quickly and effectively.

I also know what keeps the money flowing is the ability to purchase and maintain salvation, monetarily. I heard once that the Roman Catholic Church holds something like 1/5 of the world's wealth considering their property values and all. Staggering, if you think about it.

 

[chessman]

Ok, what of those who have grown cold towards Christ and cast off their faith?

Cast off who's faith? Theirs or Christ's?

As with Peter's and James's message (read in context), Paul is clearly saying there are true believers and their are false believers. Dogs/pigs and self-indulgent types that pose as true believers. It's that "plain".

 

[Butch5]

It's hard to 'debate' a point you agree with. I think you have a valid point there. The only thing I would say is, umm read all the Bible books/letters about the debates raging in the early church over things as silly as meat, circumcision, festivals, etc.

It seems to me, they liked to argue as much as we do, maybe more about most things.

Also, we may only have a handful of surviving ECF fathers' writings. The one's in control kept the books and wrote the history too. Who knows what was lost?

I've grown to respect some of them, others frankly I know for a fact got certain things wrong.

I also know that in the mid-years the ones that spoke against the grain were 'silenced' quickly and effectively.

I also know what keeps the money flowing is the ability to purchase and maintain salvation, monetarily. I heard once that the Roman Catholic Church holds something like 1/5 of the world's wealth considering their property values and all. Staggering, if you think about it.

Hi Chessman,

Yeah, I don't really quote those after the Ante-Nicene period for that reason. Once the church and state merges the church used the state to quite those who opposed them. However, one thing that I did notice is that Augustine who is popular among both Catholics and Protestants postulated the doctrine of "Perseverance of the Saints" which was rejected by the church, yet a lot of the other things he wrote were accepted.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Heb 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; (But Moses believed not and was denied the best; not entering Canaan.)
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Brother Jethro, we are talking here not of salvation, but reward. This is that great opportunity of ruling and reigning with Christ as our bridegroom versus being a part of the great multitude portion of the church.

I don't agree with that, but what about the passages that speak directly to the matter of salvation and it being conditioned on continuing to believe?

 

[Butch5]

Cast off who's faith? Theirs or Christ's?

As with Peter's and James's message (read in context), Paul is clearly saying there are true believers and their are false believers. Dogs/pigs and self-indulgent types that pose as true believers. It's that "plain".

If someone was a false believer wouldn't it be correct to say they have not faith in Christ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Good Stuff Gregg. We are not robots, but we surrender a portion of our freewill when we surrender into believing Christ crucified. He takes over at that point and it is Him that keeps and guards us in our eternal security. It is amazing to me that some think that we as sinners can do a "good" enough Job of faith or works to keep ourselves saved.

So you think that the non-OSAS argument means God abandons us to somehow believe in him with no help or encouragement from him whatsoever?

 

[Gary]

'How do we know we are saved?' "The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God" (Rom 8:16).

You left out an important tidbit.

Romans 8
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.


See the "IF"?

The Spirit Himself bears witness "IF" we suffer with Him. I wonder what happens if we don't suffer with Him?

Sounds like some conditions have to be met before the Spirit Himself does any witnessing.
.

 

[Gregg]

You left out an important tidbit.

Romans 8
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.


See the "IF"?

The Spirit Himself bears witness "IF" we suffer with Him. I wonder what happens if we don't suffer with Him?

Sounds like some conditions have to be met before the Spirit Himself does any witnessing.
.

The conditional particle 'if' along with the indicative mood assumes the fact to be true. "if indeed we suffer [pres. act. indicative] with Him" (Rom 8:17) presupposes that the condition is true, that regarding our suffering with Him.

Rom 8:17 does not question eternal life or salvation, or place a condition on either. Some would have you believe this way to justify their position. Your point of view minimizes this most wonderful doctrine - that we have the privilege to suffer with Christ, and one day we will be glorified together with Him.

The Holy Spirit bears witness that we are God's children, placing no conditions for that action stated in Rom 8:16.

 

[Gary]

Your point of view minimizes this most wonderful doctrine - ...

It's not my point of view. It's a biblical truth.
.

 

[Eugene]

I don't agree with that, but what about the passages that speak directly to the matter of salvation and it being conditioned on continuing to believe?

I truly do not know how anyone once saved could ever come to the point of not believing regardless of their personal failures. Their faith can become weak, their weakness to submit to sin and follow the flesh is common among men, but we have a Savior that never fails to work in us, but God says He will never fail or forsake us. Jesus said in John 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. That seems pretty definite to me, and I praise Him for being with me in the fires I create for me.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life.
Just how do we overcome? 1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world .
Just as in Php 4:3 . . help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life. This is our present standing as the sanctified of God; not necessarily our state. The state of our walk may be read as pertaining to one of the seven conditions of judgment given us in Revelation Chapters Two and Three.

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[agua.]

Hi Chessman,

Yeah, I don't really quote those after the Ante-Nicene period for that reason. Once the church and state merges the church used the state to quite those who opposed them. However, one thing that I did notice is that Augustine who is popular among both Catholics and Protestants postulated the doctrine of "Perseverance of the Saints" which was rejected by the church, yet a lot of the other things he wrote were accepted.

Yeah that is interesting Butch.

 

[Eugene]

You left out an important tidbit.

Romans 8
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.


See the "IF"?

The Spirit Himself bears witness "IF" we suffer with Him. I wonder what happens if we don't suffer with Him?

Sounds like some conditions have to be met before the Spirit Himself does any witnessing.
.

You ask what will happen if we don't suffer (or endure) with Jesus. He will deny us that privilege of reigning with Him as His bride. There are different rewards in heaven to them appearing before God's throne determined upon their spiritual walk.

2 Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2 Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. We as the body of Christ He cannot deny.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I truly do not know how anyone once saved could ever come to the point of not believing regardless of their personal failures.

We just have to believe that Jesus knew what he was talking about:

"13"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NAS)

We can see their problem was not that they didn't really believe, but that their faith had no firm roots to weather the storms of life.

Their faith can become weak, their weakness to submit to sin and follow the flesh is common among men, but we have a Savior that never fails to work in us, but God says He will never fail or forsake us.

Okay, good, you see that the problem is a weak faith, not a fake faith. But, if Jesus never fails to work in us as you say, why does Jesus talk about these people who believe but then fall away? One could argue that they later come back to their faith. Maybe, maybe not, but Hebrews does say there comes a time when you simply are not allowed to do that. I personally think that God is extremely merciful, giving the fallen person lot's of room to come back, but that he does draw the line somewhere.

Jesus said in John 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. That seems pretty definite to me, and I praise Him for being with me in the fires I create for me.

Right. He will not cast you out. The problem is in us walking away from him. There are plenty of scriptures to show that this is what happens, not that he casts us out.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life.

The condition to not be blotted out is overcoming. We see in Revelation that the one who is blotted out is the one who does not overcome.

Just how do we overcome? 1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

This is what we've been saying. It is our faith, worked out in overcoming, that guarantees the promise. Lose that faith and you lose the victory that faith secures. This is exactly the warning Paul makes to the church.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world .

The way of Christ, and faith in him, was the purpose and plan God established before the beginning of the world. Christ, and faith in him, is the means God ordained long beforehand by which people will be chosen.

Just as in Php 4:3 . . help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life. This is our present standing as the sanctified of God; not necessarily our state. The state of our walk may be read as pertaining to one of the seven conditions of judgment given us in Revelation Chapters Two and Three.

Yes, and when we read there in those Revelation passages we see how God will respond to the present state we are in if we choose to stay in that state and not repent. Only overcomers have their names retained in the book of life.

Having a bad hair day in Christ is one thing, but having a bad hair day and not seeking God's forgiveness and path of healing, no matter how long that path would have been, is quite another. It's the difference between being unfaithful in your struggle with sin, and outright denying him. He still covers you in the former, but will eventually let you go in the latter.

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

These passages say nothing about a person walking away from Christ in a willful disbelief. This is talking about the struggle of us all as we seek to live for and serve the God we love and cherish. Even those who we think are failing by what they think they must do, or don't have to do for God, are still accepted and held fast by God. The people Paul is talking about here are actively seeking to serve God in the way their conscience allows them. These are not people who have decided to walk away from Christ. Quite the opposite.

 

[chessman]

These passages aren't saying people will lose their salvation if they don't continue to believe?

"...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS)

"...He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:22-23 NAS)
.

That's correct, they ARE NOT saying that. But You are.

And this is good Bible study to say these passages aren't about salvation, and the condition for continued believing to obtain it?

That's correct. In fact, look closely at what you just said. You yourself don't even think you OBTAIN salvation by a continuing process, right? At least at times you say as much.

I thought it was your position that believers become saved, obtained via their initial true (held fast) belief on which they stand, (versus a vain belief which some people might have) then you go on to explain how there is a Biblically defined 'continuing process' of de-salvation. Oh, and that process is once De-saved, always De-saved.

But Indeed these are independent verses and speak for themselves.

WRT Col 1:

You might notice that every Bible translation that finds it useful to title sections of Scripture, titles the section of Col 1 (that has the phrase "moved away from the hope of the Gospel" as:

LEB: Prayer For Maturity Based On Christ's Preeminence
ESV: The Preeminence of Christ [not man's preeminence]
HSCB: Prayer For Spiritual Growth
NASB: The Incomparable Christ
NIV: The Supremacy of The Son Of God

Oh, and my point is not that these translation committees are in-fallible but rather that it's quite obvious that Paul's on the subject of maturing at the time. Maturing toward the first/preeminent, incomparable non-sinner. Now there's a goal to strive for. Sometimes we take two steps forward and one step backwards, shifting away from that goal at times. No wonder Paul prayed for those Christians. He knew the thorns Christians face.

WRT the 1 Cor passage that you meld with that Col's phrase (shift from hope), sure that one is about salvation. I mean it's 1 Cor 15!

1 Corinthians 15:1 Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed to you, which you have also received, in which you also stand, ​

I noticed it does contain the word "saved" in the verse you quoted as well, which is notably lacking from the Col 1 passage, by the way. I also notice it does NOT say anything about how to become un-saved, but you do about that verse.

I mean, it literally (plainly, as you say) tells people how to be saved. What it does not say, is how to become un-saved:

1 Corinthians 15:2b—unless you believed in vain. ​

Quick pole here for the OSAS crowd and the non-OSAS crowd and the independents:

Anybody think that Paul thinks you can be saved via a vain belief in Christ? I don't.

Brother JB, a Christian shifting in hope is a far cry from a person who had a vain belief to begin with. (Notice the tense of the verbs!)

You will not convince me otherwise about these two independent verses. I've throughly looked at both in their independent contexts and reject your take on them even if you quote them side by side and then compare them to a parable(or two or three).

But you have the right to carry on with your exegesis of these verses as you see fit. I simply disagree with your take and feel there's more than ample evidence against your take on these two verses and the "spit you out" one too.

BTW, a parable would be a very odd context to find a De-salvation doctrine since Jesus 'plainly' says He spoke to the Pharisees in parables specifically that way so they WOULD NOT hear His Words and believe them to their Messianic Salvation in the first place. Much less hear Him teach about their de-salvation in them.

But whatever, their interpretations and re-interpretations are a broad spectrum of ideas.

 

[chessman]

If someone was a false believer wouldn't it be correct to say they have not faith in Christ?

Yes.

Where does it says these younger self-indulgent 'widows' had 'faith in Christ'?

I don't find it there. That's my point.

 

[Eugene]

We just have to believe that Jesus knew what he was talking about:

"13"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NAS)

We can see their problem was not that they didn't really believe, but that their faith had no firm roots to weather the storms of life.



Okay, good, you see that the problem is a weak faith, not a fake faith. But, if Jesus never fails to work in us as you say, why does Jesus talk about these people who believe but then fall away? One could argue that they later come back to their faith. Maybe, maybe not, but Hebrews does say there comes a time when you simply are not allowed to do that. I personally think that God is extremely merciful, giving the fallen person lot's of room to come back, but that he does draw the line somewhere.

Right. He will not cast you out. The problem is in us walking away from him. There are plenty of scriptures to show that this is what happens, not that he casts us out.

The condition to not be blotted out is overcoming. We see in Revelation that the one who is blotted out is the one who does not overcome.

This is what we've been saying. It is our faith, worked out in overcoming, that guarantees the promise. Lose that faith and you lose the victory that faith secures. This is exactly the warning Paul makes to the church.

The way of Christ, and faith in him, was the purpose and plan God established before the beginning of the world. Christ, and faith in him, is the means God ordained long beforehand by which people will be chosen.

Yes, and when we read there in those Revelation passages we see how God will respond to the present state we are in if we choose to stay in that state and not repent. Only overcomers have their names retained in the book of life.

Having a bad hair day in Christ is one thing, but having a bad hair day and not seeking God's forgiveness and path of healing, no matter how long that path would have been, is quite another. It's the difference between being unfaithful in your struggle with sin, and outright denying him. He still covers you in the former, but will eventually let you go in the latter.

These passages say nothing about a person walking away from Christ in a willful disbelief. This is talking about the struggle of us all as we seek to live for and serve the God we love and cherish. Even those who we think are failing by what they think they must do, or don't have to do for God, are still accepted and held fast by God. The people Paul is talking about here are actively seeking to serve God in the way their conscience allows them. These are not people who have decided to walk away from Christ. Quite the opposite.

Dear Brother Jethro, I reckon we’re just at different thoughts as to the promises toward us who have believed on the Lord Jesus. Peace in Christ Jesus.

1 Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Rom 6:23 . . the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[chessman]

2 Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2 Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. We as the body of Christ He cannot deny.

Additionally:

1 Corinthians 10:13 Temptation has not come upon you except what is common to humanity. But God is faithful, who will not permit you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but will also make a way out together with the temptation, so that you may be able to endure it.

Hebrews 11:34 ... were made strong from weakness, became mighty in battle, put to flight enemy battle lines.

1 Corinthians 3:11-17, 23 For no one is able to lay another foundation than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, [see Laodicea] wood, grass, straw, the work of each one will become evident. For the day will reveal it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the work of each one, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work that he has built upon it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but so as through fire.

Do you not know that you are God’s temple and the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy this one. For God’s temple is holy, which you are. and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s. ​