Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Gregg]

"...if you hold fast the word which I preached to you..." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NAS)

"...if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast..." (Colossians 1:23 NAS)

Or what, Gregg. Or what?

Hi Jethro,
I was attempting to be humorous when I said 'please, look at it again . . . and again . . . and again [pun intended!]', as if those disagreeing with OSAS might think they can be saved again . . . and again . . . and again.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"...if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end." (Hebrews 3:6 NAS)

"...if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end." (Hebrews 3:14 NAS)

What is it that depends on these conditions being met?


"...if you continue in His kindness..." (Romans 11:22 NAS)

What happens 'if'? What happens 'if not'?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi Jethro,
I was attempting to be humorous when I said 'please, look at it again . . . and again . . . and again [pun intended!]', as if those disagreeing with OSAS might think they can be saved again . . . and again . . . and again.

No, the believer can not be saved over and over again. Once God denies you because you denied him first, it's over.

(I didn't get your pun because getting saved over and over again is not part of the argument for non-OSAS.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro,
Is has already being shown that salvation and eternal life are sustained by Christ. There is nothing that a Christian can do to end God's accomplished work in Christ.

A Christian may wander, sin, or his faith may become weak; but not so as to lose his salvation.

What do I do with the plain passages of scripture that say salvation is conditioned on the believer continuing in the faith? Why warn us to continue in a faith that you say there is nothing we can do to end?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro,
The Lord cultivates our will and gives us faith so that we might turn towards Him and place our faith in Him. The exercise of our will and faith is not a work of ours that leads to salvation; as even those two things are a work of God.

So we are robots? We have no choice in the matter?

 

[reba]

2.4: Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

been a long time sense i had to get out the ol Thanks guys

 

[Butch5]

The text says 'if . . . they have escaped'; [a conditionality] which does not necessarily lead to a proof for or against OSAS. It does not say that they have escaped, or that they have not escaped - it says "if."

Gregg,

Verse 18 says they were escaped from those who live in error.

18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. (2Pe 2:18 KJV)

That's not conditional. My question is who are they?

That answer also has been stated in this thread.

I'm not aware of that. Can you please either point me to it or give a brief description?

 

[chessman]

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped from the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and they are again entangled in these things and succumb to them, the last state has become worse for them than the first. ​

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped_________?________ through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and they are again entangled in these things and succumb to them
​

You guys do realize that salvation is about escaping God's Wrath in the afterlife, right?


Escaped what? Answer is the "defilements of the world". This doesn't even remotely resemble a salvation passage. You are obviously stretching a passage in accordance with your imaginations. Because there is no clear one that says saved people become 'un-saved' (whatever that means). Though Jesus, Paul, etc. could have easily said it and given some empirical named examples.

Or you could rip a phrase like "shift away" from an entirely different book/context (Col) and insert it into a totally different passage 1 Cor) in an effort to create one that suits your ideas.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Or you could rip a phrase like "shift away" from an entirely different book/context (Col) and insert it into a totally different passage 1 Cor) in an effort to create one that suits your ideas.

Who did that? The two passages stand independent of each other and each of them tell Christians that they have to keep believing to stay saved.

Why is OSAS afraid to acknowledge what the passages plainly say?

 

[Butch5]

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped from the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and they are again entangled in these things and succumb to them, the last state has become worse for them than the first. ​

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped_________?________ through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and they are again entangled in these things and succumb to them
​

You guys do realize that salvation is about escaping God's Wrath in the afterlife, right?


Escaped what? Answer is the "defilements of the world". This doesn't even remotely resemble a salvation passage. You are obviously stretching a passage in accordance with your imaginations. Because there is no clear one that says saved people become 'un-saved' (whatever that means). Though Jesus, Paul, etc. could have easily said it and given some empirical named examples.

Or you could rip a phrase like "shift away" from an entirely different book/context (Col) and insert it into a totally different passage 1 Cor) in an effort to create one that suits your ideas.

Hi Chessman,

Actually, Paul said in to Timothy of the young widows, some had grown cold towards Christ, cast off their faith, and followed after Satan. I think that one is pretty clear.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You guys do realize that salvation is about escaping God's Wrath in the afterlife, right?

That is part of it.

The down payment of our salvation--the Holy Spirit--cleans us of the defilement of the world in this age. Sanctification starts in this age.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Actually, Paul said in to Timothy of the young widows, some had grown cold towards Christ, cast of their faith, and followed after Satan. I think that one is pretty clear.

But it must not be true since he did not name names. It is a fictitious group.

 

[Butch5]

Why is OSAS afraid to acknowledge what the passages plainly say?

This is something I have pondered for quite a while. I've thought about why some fight so vehemently for this doctrine. It seems to me that we would just accept whatever Scriptures says, but as I posted earlier, with this doctrine passions arise and sometimes logical arguments go by the wayside. I suspect there is an emotional aspect to this doctrine. I know a friend of mine struggled with whether or not he was saved until he finally bought into this doctrine. It's my opinion that this fear does drive some to this doctrine. I think some may be fearful that they may have fallen away and if this doctrine is correct they have no worries. Obviously this doesn't pertain to everyone who holds this doctrine, but, I do suspect that it is more common than not.

 

[Eugene]

What do I do with the plain passages of scripture that say salvation is conditioned on the believer continuing in the faith? Why warn us to continue in a faith that you say there is nothing we can do to end?

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
The sermon on the mount was not given to Christians. Who do you or anyone else know that has never sinned, or continues to never fail once in all they do?

Heb 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; (But Moses believed not and was denied the best; not entering Canaan.)
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Brother Jethro, we are talking here not of salvation, but reward. This is that great opportunity of ruling and reigning with Christ as our bridegroom versus being a part of the great multitude portion of the church.

 

[Gregg]

So we are robots? We have no choice in the matter?

I am not implying that we are robots. We are sentient beings with a will, and we do have a choice.

- - -

'How do we know we are saved?' "The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God" (Rom 8:16).

 

[chessman]

This is something I have pondered for quite a while. I've thought about why some fight so vehemently for this doctrine. It seems to me that we would just accept whatever Scriptures says, but as I posted earlier, with this doctrine passions arise and sometimes logical arguments go by the wayside. I suspect there is an emotional aspect to this doctrine. I know a friend of mine struggled with whether or not he was saved until he finally bought into this doctrine. It's my opinion that this fear does drive some to this doctrine. I think some may be fearful that they may have fallen away and if this doctrine is correct they have no worries. Obviously this doesn't pertain to everyone who holds this doctrine, but, I do suspect that it is more common than not.

I can assure you that if there was a Scripture that said saved people can become un-saved, I'd have zero problem taking it to heart as truth. I follow truth, wherever it leads. On the other hand, it will not be the one that says people "escape the defilements of the world" or even the one that says people "shift from the hope of the Gospel", just because they kind of sound like they could be about losing salvation.

Why? Because those passages/phrases are not talking about losing one's inheritance in God's Kingdom. Thus, to tell people they are is in error.

If you actually take the time to read them in their context, they aren't saying people are losing salvation. That's my point.

To be frank, I really don't care if OSAS is true or not on a personal or emotional level.

P.s.that's just me though. I'm sure you are right and there are many that do hold either view emotionally and stridently. Contrary to good Bible study.

 

[gr8grace3]

I am not implying that we are robots. We are sentient beings with a will, and we do have a choice.

- - -

'How do we know we are saved?' "The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God" (Rom 8:16).

Good Stuff Gregg. We are not robots, but we surrender a portion of our freewill when we surrender into believing Christ crucified. He takes over at that point and it is Him that keeps and guards us in our eternal security. It is amazing to me that some think that we as sinners can do a "good" enough Job of faith or works to keep ourselves saved.

 

[chessman]

Hi Chessman,

Actually, Paul said in to Timothy of the young widows, some had grown cold towards Christ, cast off their faith, and followed after Satan. I think that one is pretty clear.

I think it's talking about whether or not the church should take in (financially) younger widows that can, on a practical basis, take care of their own needs. Especially "their faithful" 'needs' that Paul warns are "self indulgent" in truth:

1 Timothy 5:3, 5-6 Honor widows who are truly widows. She who is truly a widow, left all alone, has set her hope on God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day, ... but she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives. ​

Next?

 

[Butch5]

I think it's talking about whether or not the church should take in (financially) younger widows that can, on a practical basis, take care of their own needs. Especially "their faithful" 'needs' that Paul warns are "self indulgent" in truth:

1 Timothy 5:3, 5-6 Honor widows who are truly widows. She who is truly a widow, left all alone, has set her hope on God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day, ... but she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives. ​

Next?

What does the underlined statement mean?

 

[Butch5]

I can assure you that if there was a Scripture that said saved people can become un-saved, I'd have zero problem taking it to heart as truth. I follow truth, wherever it leads. On the other hand, it will not be the one that says people "escape the defilements of the world" or even the one that says people "shift from the hope of the Gospel", just because they kind of sound like they could be about losing salvation.

Why? Because those passages/phrases are not talking about losing one's inheritance in God's Kingdom. Thus, to tell people they are is in error.

If you actually take the time to read them in their context, they aren't saying people are losing salvation. That's my point.

To be frank, I really don't care if OSAS is true or not on a personal or emotional level.

P.s.that's just me though. I'm sure you are right and there are many that do hold either view emotionally and stridently. Contrary to good Bible study.

Hi Chessman,

I wasn't referring to you when I posted that, but rather engaging Jethro's thought. I do, however, believe that many of these passages are addressing the issue of salvation even if not plainly stated. What no one seem to want to address is the historical aspect of this issue. This idea that salvation cannot be lost was rejected by the church until the Reformation. If salvation cannot be lost then we must accept that the church, including those taught by Jesus and the apostles were wrong and didn't understand, yet we find that they not only rejected but taught that this doctrine was heresy. We can say what we want about the Scriptures but were reading translations they weren't. The first Christians were reading their own language. To me this is the most damaging evidence against this doctrine.