Lukewarm believers and faith

[Fish153]

Struggling to overcome temptation and sin, is called the good fight of faith in Jesus Christ.

Struggling with failure of sinning by temptation, is called the death of disobedience to God, and in need of repentance.

Acts{11:18} When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Godly repentance from dead works is unto life.

1Jo 3:14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
By good works we pass from death unto life.

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev{20:12} And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works....And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

By good works we are judged in the resurrection unto life in the book of life, or by evil works unto second death in the lake of fire.




2 Cor 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

There is no already saved without already repented from dead works.

1Co 6:11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

There is no already saved without already washed, sanctified, and justified.



Ministerial works of the good wheat are rewarded with cities in Christ's millennial reign on earth.

Bad works of the tares are rewarded with hypocrites.

Matth 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

"By good works we pass from death unto life".

No. Absolutely not. Ephesians 2:10 says we are SAVED "UNTO good works which God prepared for us to walk in". Salvation comes first---it's FRUIT is good works. You have it backwards again my friend. Good works do not save us--we are saved UNTO good works---not BY our works.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, not true. Read it again:
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, WE have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for OUR sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2: 1,2)

Yeah, "we" have as Advocate...for the "any man" who wants to be freed from walking in the darkness-sin.

John is clearly saying that by writing these things he is instructing them not to sin. But, if any man sin (as we all do from time to time either knowingly or unknowingly). Note: He says "WE" have an advocate with the Father. If, as you say, John has turned from sin to sin no more----why does he say WE have an advocate? He then says "he is the propitiation for OUR sins". The grammar is not just PAST SINS---it is a present tense verb--for OUR sins.

If members of the church are the "we" of 1 John 2:1, they were walking in darkness and not in the light.

James says "For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body". (James 3:2) James is clearly stating that WE ALL OFFEND----we all SIN.

No, he isn't.
His "we" are the "too many master", who are teaching conflicting messages.
Sweet water, and bitter.
Olive berries from a fig tree.
Incongruity.
They had a "too many cooks spoil the broth" situation there.

He is then saying that if you are able to bridle your tongue you will keep yourself from many offenses.

This is true !

But clearly, James, a very godly man, says "in many things WE offend all".

But you don't think it is true ?
Godly men don't "offend all".

Take heed to that--no one reaches a place where they can say "I no longer sin".

Then Jesus suffered and died for nothing.
I can't agree.
" Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:6-10)

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yeah, "we" have as Advocate...for the "any man" who wants to be freed from walking in the darkness-sin.

If members of the church are the "we" of 1 John 2:1, they were walking in darkness and not in the light.

I must correct that last line.
I meant to say..."If members of the church are the "any man" of 1 John 2:1, they were walking in darkness and not in the light."

 

[RBDERRICK]

You simply do not understand the meaning of "justified" in that verse. Paul and James agree, but they use different meanings of "justification.

Christ has two meanings for His justification? That's unique.

Some have tried to say the justification in James 2 is not with God, but only with men. (I.e. their works are only to be seen of men, not honored by God).

However, Jesus Christ is neither double minded in His faith, nor duplicitous in His doctrine, but only has one doctrine to believe and do:

Eph 4:2There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

1 Co 1:13 Is Christ divided?

No, neithner are any of His words divided from themselves.

"Throughout this passage, Paul’s point is that Abraham was not justified (declared righteous) by any works,... Paul is talking about being declared righteous, having our sins pardoned,

So, justification in James 2 is defined as imputed righteousness in Rom 4.

Therefore, imputed righteousness in Rom 4 is also by works in James 2, even as justification.

but James is talking about vindication and proof of the faith that Abraham already had by which he was made righteous.

True. Justification by works is the faith of Jesus Christ in the heart first, and also in the works.

Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

The born son of God is declared righteous and justified inwardly by the faith of Jesus Christ, and also outwardly by the works of His faith:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Imputed righteousness and justification begin with old dead works repented of, so that we are without any works when born again, and in works are once again as newborn babes:

Rom 9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

And so, the justification of Christ has the one same meaning with imputed righteousness, both without works and with works: No old dead works of any unrighteousness.

If we have ceased from our old unjustified works of unrighteousness, we are now newly declared righteous and justified by the faith of Jesus Christ without works.

And if we are also doing those things pleasing to the Father by the faith of the Son, we are also declared righteous and justified by the faith of Jesus Christ with works.

Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

1 Thess{5:22} Abstain from all appearance of evil. {5:23} And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Paul’s point is that Abraham was not justified (declared righteous) by any works, but by believing in God

And Christ's point in James 2 is that Abraham was justified and declared righteous by the work of faith in God.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

The imputed righteousness by faith without works, is perfected in the work of faith.

Imputed righteousness and justification is first without any works we have done, and also made perfect by works of faith toward God.

There is no imputed righteousness nor justification by God, that is apart from any works we are doing.

Setting apart one's soul and life from works being done, is only doctrinally possible in this life by one's faith alone, but is never psosible with tyhe true God that judges all souls by our works in life.

Sinners who trust in their own faith alone to doctrinally justify themselves apart from the works they do, are foolishly setting themselves for everlasting stocks apart from God and the Lamb.

Pro 7:22He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks;

Heb 7:26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

 

[RBDERRICK]

Notice also that Christ’s work on the cross and his resurrection are the basis for our justification

True, not by His work on the cross alone. No man is justified by Jesus's death, but all are made guilty of His innocent shed blood and death at the cross.

Nor is His justification ever for any rebellion and crucifying Him again to oneself.

; it is his righteousness imputed to us. He did the work,

True. He did the work of obeying the Father in life and death, and rose again to offer mercy to them that repent.

Only sinful man can repent of his own sins and trespasses for His mercy's sake, which is not a work but only a ceasing of works.

so it is not by any works we do.

True. Repenting of our works is not a work we do, but is works we cease doing.

First, Paul says that “if Abraham was justified by works,” which obviously implies that he wasn’t justified by works, he has nothing to “boast about .

Not until he was justified by the work of offering up Isaac unto God.

No works going before justified him with God, because they were all works he could boast of. Such as journeying to a far country, laying with Sarah to beget a son, and circumcising himself and his household.

But offering up his only son was not any work any good man would desire nor boast of, and yet at the word of the Lord Abraham did, and it wholly justified Him with God to be called Friend.

Gen 22:12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

James {2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

. He ties that in with the reason as to why “it was counted to him” was written for our sake (v. 24). Paul is saying that it is on the basis of faith alone in God that we are declared righteous, just as Abraham was.

And of course nowhere does any Scripture speak of having faith alone, except it being declared dead.

Only preachers of their own faith alone speak well of it, not God, nor any Scriptural hearers that reject it.

Paul says that by grace we are saved (justified) through faith,

Gal 2:16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We are only justified through the faith of Jesus Christ, not through one's own faith alone.

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

No sinner saves himself by his own faith of himself, because no man's own faith alone, can take away lust of one's own heart, and cease from sinning against God.

Once any man has sinned, then the lust thereof can only be circumcised from the heart to be made all new and pure of God, even as newborn babes.

Why is it a gift? Because it is not our own doing.

True. The gift of Jesus Christ's faith toward God, is not the faith of sinners to continue sinning.

One's own faith alone cannot do anything to please God, because lust of heart does not do any good works pure and clean to God.

The only time Paul speaks of doing works is in verse 10, where he clearly states that doing good works are the reason we have been saved.

No man has been saved, that has not been sanctified by the Lord.

Man's faith alone saves nor sanctifies any man, while disobeying the Lord.

That supports what James says, that good works are evidence that a person has been saved.

Good works with a purified heart proves having the saving faith of Jesus Christ. Their righteous faith is recieved from God with repentance from dead works for His mercy's sake.

Bad works with lust of heart proves not having Jesus' faith toward God, but only their own sinner's faith, that remains alive to sin and dead to God.

your due diligence in studying the different meanings of justification.

I've studied your effort to make differeing meanings out of Christ's jsutification, and reject it as doctrinal duplicity for the sake of saving oneself by their own faith alone, apart from continued unrighteous works dead to God.

In context, which you need to keep in mind when responding, adding works to justification

I'll be sure to keep in mind what Scripture says, thanks.

2 pet 1:4 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

James{2:22}Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone.

No one adding bad works to their faith, is imputed righteousness, saved, sanctified, not justified by their unrighteous, fruitless, futile dead faith alone.

, thinking that works are necessary to be declared righteous, is a false gospel.

Thinking that good works are not necessary to be justified by Jesus Christ the righteous, is of course not Scripture.

Thinking that evil works can necessarily be set apart, to be justified by faith alone, is of course hypocritical and called a lying wonder.

2Th 2:9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders...

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The truth from the beginning, is that anyone transgressing the Lord's commandment, is judged dead to God.

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

I had stated that you do not teach the gospel, and technically you don't,

I don't teach your gospel at all. Neither technically nor to live by it.

but it's because you simply do not understand the meaning of "justification."

Certainly not your meanings created for justification by faith alone.

You really need to accept correction on this and understand what the Bible says about believers being justified

No I don't need to accept your correction of the Bible, in order to preach one's own justifying faith alone, with unrighteous works dead to God.

, lest you actually do believe a false gospel.

I actually don't believe in your gospel.

Correct terminology and understanding of that terminology is of the utmost importance.

Two differening meanings of the same word, is terminology for dishonesty and duplicity.

A word can have a double meaning, but not two different meanings. Only two words can have two different meanings.

Such an insult to grammatical intelligence, is indeed the end result of false teachers, who wholly give themselves over to their own faith and doctrine alone:

Dan 7:25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws:

They are known at the start to preach things opposing plain words of Scripture, the point where they even seek to change the very laws of nature, time, and grammar.

Such is the end of all teaching upon the foundation of justification by one's own faith alone. The more they teach it, the digger they dig into the bottomless sand.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

No thanks. Never doubt I will never believe your gospel, nor live by your faith. It's all your's alone, and you are certainly welcome to it.

However, as God certainly says in all Scripture, in the end the righteous Lord will go right ahead judge us all by our works, not by our own personal beliefs in ourselves alone.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men...

 

[Free]

Struggling to overcome temptation and sin, is called the good fight of faith in Jesus Christ.

Yes, it is the process of sanctification.

Struggling with failure of sinning by temptation, is called the death of disobedience to God, and in need of repentance.

I'm not clear on what you're saying here.

Acts{11:18} When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Godly repentance from dead works is unto life.

But repentance is not a work. Good works do not grant us life, they are evidence of life.

1Jo 3:14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
By good works we pass from death unto life.

Good works are evidence "that we have passed from death unto life." We do not "pass from death unto life" "by good works."

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev{20:12} And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works....And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

By good works we are judged in the resurrection unto life in the book of life, or by evil works unto second death in the lake of fire.

Again, because good works are evidence that one is saved and bad works are evidence that one is not saved.

2 Cor 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

There is no already saved without already repented from dead works.

Of course.

1Co 6:11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

There is no already saved without already washed, sanctified, and justified.

Which is why believers are saved already.

Their faith to disobey God, is not the obedient faith of Jesus Christ. The faith of the unrighteous is their own alone and dead toward God.

Heb {6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

I don't understand what you mean by "their faith to disobey God" and "the faith of the unrighteous." It would be good to try and stick with how the Bible speaks of things such as "faith," which is of faith in Christ or of pertaining to the faith. There is nothing about "faith to disobey God" because that doesn't make sense based on what faith means.

1Jo 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If any man sins, is for any man sinning, which includes believers disobeying God.

The Spirit first writes to the believers Jesus' command, that we sin not.

Of course.

The Spirit also writes to the believers Jesus' warning, that if we sin, we are the same as any man disobeying God. Any man sinning, whether naming Christ or not, is in need of the same Advocate to the whole world, and reconciliation with God and the Father.

Not exactly. Believers have been and therefore are always reconciled to God; that is rather the whole point of justification.

I preach only the good works done through the faith of Jesus Christ are justified by God the Father.

Gal 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

You're not speaking of justifying anyone's works at all, but only justifying anyone's faith alone, whether doing good or bad.

You keep using "justified" in a sense which isn't used in the Bible and it is very confusing in trying to understand what you're saying. Works themselves are not justified, people are. I really don't know what you're saying here.

 

[Free]

We are imputed righteousness of God, when we repent of all our own dead works without Christ.

Heb 4:9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Repentance is more than just repenting of "dead works without Christ." It means to change one's mind, the result of which is a change in one's life; they go hand-in-hand. It also includes changing one's mind about Jesus and about their sin.

Therefore, we are declared righteous without works repented of.

Again, I don't understand what you're saying here.

Titus {3:5} Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Yes, I've given this a few times as it contradicts other things you have stated.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Abraham our father was justified by God, not by man. God called Abraham Friend, when he did the work commanded and justified by God.

{2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

The Scripture of God imputing righteousness to Abraham by faith, was fulfilled when the Scripture declared him Friend by the work justified with God.

{2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Imputed righteousness of God is fulfilled, when doing the work justified by God.

Again I ask: where are works said to be justified by the Father? You continue to use "justified" in a sense that isn't found in Scripture and so it is very confusing.

We are imputed rightoeusness without works repented of.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

We are justified by works that need no repentance.

No, we are never justified (saved) by any works, good or otherwise. See below (or above) where you have contradicted that statement.

Justified by God, which is according to Scripture:

What I asked was: 'What meaning of “justified” are you using?'. What have given in response is a tautology--you're using the word to try and define the word. All you're doing is using the word.

Gal 2:16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
The justification of God is by the faith of Jesus Christ, not by any works of charity, law, and transgression, that is without the faith of Jesus.

Exactly, which contradicts the statement you just made above that "We are justified by works that need no repentance."

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The justification by God is by the works of faith in Jesus Christ.

Again, I don't understand what you're saying here. If you're saying that a believer's good works are what justify (in terms of salvation) him by God, then no. That would once again contradict what you have said immediately above.

Matth 12:37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned…for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Which includes our words judged as works.

Of course.

2 pet 1:4 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

You were here responding to my statements: "That is at the heart of the gospel and is a clear message of the NT. Any works added to that, whether of the law or good works, is a false gospel."

So, I don't know what you're trying to say with this passage. Quoting Scripture without stating why is often not helpful.

 

[Free]

And Christ's point in James 2 is that Abraham was justified and declared righteous by the work of faith in God.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

What do you mean by "justified"? What is the definition of "justified" being used here?

The imputed righteousness by faith without works, is perfected in the work of faith.

What do you mean by "perfected"?

Imputed righteousness and justification is first without any works we have done,

Exactly, and once again this contradicts other things you have said immediately above (and below).

and also made perfect by works of faith toward God.

What do you think it means that "by works was faith made perfect?"

There is no imputed righteousness nor justification by God, that is apart from any works we are doing.

Here is the contradiction. You first state that "Imputed righteousness and justification is first without any works we have done," but then state here that "There is no imputed righteousness nor justification by God, that is apart from any works we are doing." That is a direct contradiction.

Which is it--are we "imputed righteousness and justification . . . without any works we have done," or is there "no imputed righteousness nor justification by God, that is apart from any works we are doing"?

Setting apart one's soul and life from works being done, is only doctrinally possible in this life by one's faith alone, but is never psosible with tyhe true God that judges all souls by our works in life.

This is very confusing. What are you saying here, as it appears to be another contradiction?

Sinners who trust in their own faith alone to doctrinally justify themselves apart from the works they do, are foolishly setting themselves for everlasting stocks apart from God and the Lamb.

Of course. No one is here saying that we trust in our own faith alone.

 

[Free]

Nor is His justification ever for any rebellion and crucifying Him again to oneself.

What does this have to do with anything?

True. Repenting of our works is not a work we do, but is works we cease doing.

In part, as explained previously.

Not until he was justified by the work of offering up Isaac unto God.

No works going before justified him with God, because they were all works he could boast of. Such as journeying to a far country, laying with Sarah to beget a son, and circumcising himself and his household.

But offering up his only son was not any work any good man would desire nor boast of, and yet at the word of the Lord Abraham did, and it wholly justified Him with God to be called Friend.

Gen 22:12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

James {2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Again, Paul's point, which he makes repeatedly, is that there was not a single work that Abraham did that justified (saved) him, including being willing to offer up his son. It was all on the basis of faith in God. His willingness to sacrifice Isaac was evidence of his faith in God to fulfill the promise made to him.

And of course nowhere does any Scripture speak of having faith alone, except it being declared dead.

My statement was: "Paul is saying that it is on the basis of faith alone in God that we are declared righteous, just as Abraham was."

You're now speaking of things beyond justification, beyond being declared righteous. So much of your contradiction and confusion is because you don't actually know the biblical definitions of "justification." Get that sorted out and your theology might actually start to make sense.

Only preachers of their own faith alone speak well of it, not God, nor any Scriptural hearers that reject it.

No one is preaching "of their own faith alone."

Gal 2:16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We are only justified through the faith of Jesus Christ, not through one's own faith alone.

Yes, exactly. That has been my point the whole time, since that is what is meant by "justification by faith alone."

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

No sinner saves himself by his own faith of himself, because no man's own faith alone, can take away lust of one's own heart, and cease from sinning against God.

Of course. And, again, no one has said or is saying otherwise. But, here Paul's point is, once again, that it is faith alone, not by works that one is justified (saved).

True. The gift of Jesus Christ's faith toward God, is not the faith of sinners to continue sinning.

Again, what do you even mean by "the faith of sinners"? Where is that ever mentioned in the Bible?

Good works with a purified heart proves having the saving faith of Jesus Christ.

Exactly. This is what I have been saying the whole time--good works are evidence that a person is justified (saved)--but it contradicts what you have said elsewhere.

I've studied your effort to make differeing meanings out of Christ's jsutification, and reject it as doctrinal duplicity for the sake of saving oneself by their own faith alone, apart from continued unrighteous works dead to God.

This is a fairly confusing sentence and I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. However, it seems that you have not understood what I have been saying. Not once have I ever stated that one's own faith saves them.

No one adding bad works to their faith, is imputed righteousness, saved, sanctified, not justified by their unrighteous, fruitless, futile dead faith alone.

Again, this is a fairly confusing sentence and I don't know what you're saying.

Thinking that good works are not necessary to be justified by Jesus Christ the righteous, is of course not Scripture.

Here again you contradict yourself, largely because you continue to not even understand the biblical meanings of "justification." As I said, if you would actually study the meanings of justification, your contradictions and errors would be quickly sorted out.

Good works are never, ever, ever necessary for justification.

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. (ESV)

I've given this passage several times and you continually ignore what it states plainly. Righteous works do not save (justify); it is solely a gift of God's grace, through faith in Christ. The evidence of which is good works. It's all there, as well as in other passages I have given.

Adding good works to justification is a false gospel.

Thinking that evil works can necessarily be set apart, to be justified by faith alone, is of course hypocritical and called a lying wonder.

Of course, which is why I have never once made that claim. Please stick with addressing claims I have made, not those I haven't made.

 

[Free]

I don't teach your gospel at all. Neither technically nor to live by it.

I know, and that is a serious problem for you. You either follow a false gospel, or do not have a good understanding of the gospel because you don't understand the biblical meanings of justification. I have asked you numerous times what the definitions of justification are and you have never been able to give them.

Certainly not your meanings created for justification by faith alone.

It isn't my meaning, it's a biblical meaning. Please, do some actual study rather than just proof-texting, for your sake.

No I don't need to accept your correction of the Bible, in order to preach one's own justifying faith alone, with unrighteous works dead to God.

Again, this is a confusing sentence, but if I understand it well enough, you are once again thinking that I am arguing for a position that I have never argued.

I actually don't believe in your gospel.

Well, you actually might, but your lack of understanding (willful ignorance at this point) of the biblical meanings of justification means you don't even really know what the Bible is saying, as is evident by the contradictions in your position that you've given several times.

Two differening meanings of the same word, is terminology for dishonesty and duplicity.

A word can have a double meaning, but not two different meanings. Only two words can have two different meanings.

Such an insult to grammatical intelligence, is indeed the end result of false teachers, who wholly give themselves over to their own faith and doctrine alone:

This, too, is willful ignorance, of all languages. Most words have more than one meaning; some of them have many meanings. Some are related and more nuanced, some are fairly different. There is simply no way to even be able to speak English without understanding this, just as there is no way to come to a good understanding of what the Bible says without understanding this.

What is the meaning of "book"?

Such is the end of all teaching upon the foundation of justification by one's own faith alone. The more they teach it, the digger they dig into the bottomless sand.

Sure, but not a single person in this thread, myself included, has taught such a thing. Didn't I tell you before to actually try and understand what people are saying rather than making assumptions and setting up straw men?

No thanks. Never doubt I will never believe your gospel, nor live by your faith. It's all your's alone, and you are certainly welcome to it.

What I have been saying is not "my gospel" nor "my faith." It is taught by every Christian denomination and church, because it is what the Bible teaches. Again, your willful ignorance is holding you back from understanding properly what the Bible teaches.

However, as God certainly says in all Scripture, in the end the righteous Lord will go right ahead judge us all by our works, not by our own personal beliefs in ourselves alone.

Of course, but, once again, that is not something I nor anyone else in this thread has been teaching.

 

[RBDERRICK]

They do, although imperfectly.

Obedient sons of God do, disobedient children of the religion don't.

An imperfect gospel for a lukewarm religion of incomplete repentance. Yippee. So exciting.

{3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
"We're all new creatures in Christ! Amen!!" "Well, almost. Oh, ok,"

And, they desire to be obedient and to please God.

No commandment of God commands to desire to do the truth, but to do the truth.

So, the imperfectly doing gospel is really just an imperfectly desiring to do good.

"Good intentions and 25 cents will get you a cup of coffee." "Hell is full of souls with good intentions."

And this is exactly what is meant by justification (being declared righteous) by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, apart from any works.

No, it has nothing to do with being justified by faith alone, apart from any works we are doing, whether good and bad.

The gospel promise of Jesus Christ to impute righteousness and justification, is only apart from past works. Which of course, is only given to any that repent of all their works, so that as newborn babes they become without works.

Rom 9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil...

Once works are done, then they are either righteous and justified through the faith of Jesus Christ, or they are unrighteous works unjustified by one's own faith alone. Which includes not doing the good works at hand:

James 2:15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?...Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 4:17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 John 3:17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

The warning of James and John not to grow cold against doing good, is only to them living righteously. Willfull trangressors are already condemned out of hand, as bad tares among the assembly.

1 Cor 6:9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind…Gal 5:19 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

RBDERRICK said:
No one is saved and justified until the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

False.

You mistake my meaning.

At the cross and death of Jesus Christ, no man was justified nor judged a saved believer on earth.

Only until His resurrection from the dead 3 days later, could any man repent and be justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter{1:3} Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The death of Jesus Christ alone does not save any man. Only by His death, burial, and resurrection is any man justified with Christ.

The death of Jesus Christ the Son of God at the hands of sinful man on earth, does not justify any man on earth, but only condemns all sinners as guilty of His innocent shed blood.

 

[RBDERRICK]

RBDERRICK said:
All men need to obey the Lord. Only His accepted saints do.

Actually, people in the world can obey God without being conscious of it. They are just following their conscience.

But yes, only Christians please God in their obedience, by giving their all to Him, and not just a few "good works."

They not only cannot please God, but also not obey Him without a pure heart of faith in Jesus Christ.

Cyrus the king was a servant named by God, but not by obedient to the Lord God. Cyrus wisdom did not count for righteousness with God.

The natural man's religion is being good sinners with a God-conscience, without the need of believing and knowing the true God and Jesus Christ.

Romans 2 is not about Gentiles ignorantly obeying God naturally by one's conscience alone. Rather Christ is only speaking of His new Gentile converts to the God of Abraham and the Jews.

The argument is not against evil people doing a good thing, but against conscientious sinners obeying God, and being obedient to God.

1Co 13:3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Obeying God must first begin with a whole pure heart of faith in Jesus Christ toward God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

RBDERRICK said:
No man accepts Jesus as Christ and Lord, He accepts us as obedient servants.

I'm afraid that runs counter to what we're told in Scriptures.

Then show Scripture where any man is commanded to accept Jesus Christ as Lord, or of any man doing so.

The only time I've ever heard of it was from traditional Christian preaching. It certainly sounds acceptable to some hearers.

Rom 10.9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Nothing here says anything about accepting Jesus as Lord. Many acceptable traditions err from Scripture, and many that hear and believe it, then erroneously apply it to Scripture.

The Scripture only speaks of believing Jesus Christ is the Lord risen from the dead, and confessing the truth with the mouth.

We must accept that He is the only Lord and Savoir for all men. And so, it is we that must be accepted by Him.

The only Scripture speaking of acceptance between God and man, is God accepting man, not vica versa.

The Lord Jesus Christ does not need to be accepted, but believed and obeyed to be accepted by Him.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Just because any man accepts Jesus as Lord, doesn't mean any man is acceptable to Him.

Only equals accept one another. Defeated enemies can only bow down and surrender to the victorious King as Lord, and pray they be accepted by Him into His service, or be slain.

With Jesus Christ, that is only by whole hearted repentance from sinning against Him.

Jesus was speaking of choosing those he wanted to be his apostles.

So, Jesus is not speaking to you in John 15? You are not a branch in the true Vine?

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The Spirit certainly is to me, and I must abide in Him as he commands, or be dead and cut off from His body.

They certainly chose to accept his calling.

The subject is accepting God, or being acceptable to Him.

 

[RBDERRICK]

"By good works we pass from death unto life".

Good correction. Thanks.

We pass from death unto life by Jesus Christ without works, by repenting of our own works without Christ.

1Jo 3:14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

We know we have passed from death unto life by doing good.

And we continue to know we are passed from death to life, by continuing to do good.

Tit 3:14And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

2 pet 1:4 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The gospel of jsutificatoin by faith alone, teaches lukewarm sinners to believe they are passed from death unto life, apart from any works they are doing, whether they be good or evil.

Salvation comes first---it's FRUIT is good works.

True. Salvation, righteousness, and justification first come by mercy and grace without works repented of.

They continue with new good works through the faith of Jesus Christ.

The gospel of being justified by faith alone, teaches lukewarm repenters to believe they are washed and saved, without being sanctified from dead works.

1Co 6:11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Thanks again friend for the correction.

 

[RBDERRICK]

RBDERRICK said:
Struggling to overcome temptation and sin, is called the good fight of faith in Jesus Christ.

Yes, it is the process of sanctification.

No, it is the growth of obedient sons sanctified and justified by the Lord.

1Co 6:11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Sanctification by Jesus Christ is at once complete from dead works, being without any works of sin and trespass.

Progressive sanctification by lukewarm religion is a never ending process. It only seeks to do less evil than before. It's the moral relativism of lukewarm repentance and sanctification.

Partial repentance and sanctification is unrepentance and unsanctification to the Lord Jesus Christ. The only surrender of His enemies accepted by the wholly victorious Lord, is wholeheartedly complete surrender now, not later.

Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

Eph 4:28Let him that stole steal no more...

And so with any transgression of the law of Christ: repent and do transgress no more.

Jesus Christ has not sanctified nor justified any man stealing less then before. So with any all transgressions of His law.

Jas 2:10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the promise of His faith toward God to sin no more.

The gospel of another Christ is the promise of having faith in life to sin less than before.

That is not the faith of Jesus Christ toward God, that only comes by repentance of sinning against Him.

Heb 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the

Again, because good works are evidence that one is saved and bad works are evidence that one is not saved.

True. We are proven justified or condemned by our works.

And doing both good and bad works are evidence of wretched double heartedness, that is in need of deliverance by Jesus Christ.

Preaching a process of sanctification, is to preach continued times of being unjustified by bad works.

 

[RandyK]

RBDERRICK said:

Then show Scripture where any man is commanded to accept Jesus Christ as Lord, or of any man doing so.

Rom 10.9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Nothing here says anything about accepting Jesus as Lord.

To declare Christ and to choose to believe in Christ is to accept Christ. And to accept who Christ is is accepting him as Lord.

The Scripture only speaks of believing Jesus Christ is the Lord risen from the dead, and confessing the truth with the mouth.

That is accepting Christ as Lord. Believing he is Lord is accepting him as Lord.

We must accept that He is the only Lord and Savoir for all men. And so, it is we that must be accepted by Him.

If we accept that Christ is the only Lord and Savior for all men then we are accepting him as Lord and Savior for me, too.

The only Scripture speaking of acceptance between God and man, is God accepting man, not vica versa.

No, the choice to believe in Christ is accepting who he is, as Lord and Savior. It is a choice. Acceptance is a positive choice.

The Lord Jesus Christ does not need to be accepted, but believed and obeyed to be accepted by Him.

Believing and obeying Christ is accepting him. He needs to be accepted, believed in, and obeyed. You don't believe in someone, you don't obey someone, if you don't accept him and his lordship.

Just because any man accepts Jesus as Lord, doesn't mean any man is acceptable to Him.

That's true. It isn't enough to accept someone. One must accept Christ as Lord and Savior. That is the condition upon which God accepts us.

You sound like a Predestinarian in some ways. Predestinarians would like to quote, "We love because He loves us 1st."

Well, I'm a Predestinarian but I don't define "acceptance" out of belief and obedience. To me, they are the same.

While it's true that we can't love until He loves us 1st, it is equally true that He loved us 1st so that we can accept His love. That is what we do when we choose to follow Him.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I don't understand what you mean by "their faith to disobey God" and "the faith of the unrighteous."

There is the faith of sinners that continue sinning, and then there is the faith of Jesus Christ to do God's righteousness and sin no more. Sinners can claim His faith for the sake of His salvation, but they have not His faith at heart.

The faith of sinners is to sin more or less, and never to sin no more. No sinner preaches ceasing from sinning in this life, because they believe they certainly will disobey God again, and so they openly say.

By their own faith alone, they minister continued sinning to themselves and others that hear them.

Their gospel of sinners saved by grace alone, and justified through their own faith alone, is only for sinners that certainly believe they will sin again, and yet seek to be justified by that faith when doing so.

Believing we will sin again, is believing in sinning again. It is faith in more sinning. It certainly is not faith in sinning no more. They have the old sinner's heart of lust, that believes unto sinning, not new purified heart that believes unto the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Rom 10:10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is manifest that their sinner's faith is not the faith of Jesus Christ, in that they do not believe from the heart in doing His righteousness alone, but also in doing their own unrighteousness. With the mouth they name His name and claim His faith and salvation, but with the heart they still believe in committing more sin on earth,

Luk 6:46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

And they preach their faith to sin more, for a gospel of sinners saved by grace alone:

Mat 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?

 

[RandyK]

There is the faith of sinners that continue sinning, and then there is the faith of Jesus Christ to do God's righteousness and sin no more.

You seem to be establishing an elitist Christianity, separating "pure" Christians from "lukewarm Christians." I can undersand separating true Christians from nominal Christians, but I don't think your doctrine of Grace and Justification creates the demarcation you're looking for?

I hear a lot of the "Sinless Perfection" crowd argue against Freewill, thinking that only if Christ does it all can we live proper Christianity. You seem to have your own version, and it seems to be off.

For example, saying we weren't saved at Jesus' death seems confused to me? Of course, Jesus justified us, legally, at his death--even before his resurrection. It was his shed blood that bought our redemption.

The "gospel of being saved by Grace Alone and by Faith Alone" is not a Gospel for sinners! It is the Protestant standard of relying on Christ's atonement alone for Salvation, and not living by our own independent works for Salvation.

We must live *through Christ.* This is not for living the sinful lifestyle, but the means of our Justification, living via the righteousness of Christ and thereby obtaining his forgiveness along with it.